King Ding Dong

FWIW, here's how we handled this.

 

Patrols were responsible of course for their own menus and quantity planning.

 

Patrol grubmasters were given the option of A) buy it on your own, or B) buy it on such-and-such day when I would be there with a troop check because I was buying for the adult patrol. (Our troop prefers to bill, rather than collect up front. But it does not matter.)

 

Grubmasters did their own thing in the store (so no clogging the aisles) with the troop grumbaster-instructor working with the less-experienced patrol grubmasters. We met up front when everybody was done and ran the carts through in sequence. Everybody took their own stuff home and was responsible for getting it to the campout.

 

This worked very well and the extent of adult involvement was writing a check so I can live with that administrative decision. YMMV.

If we can just get the boys to clip coupons at troop meetings.....

Prediction? I won't be surprised either way, really. If you put a gun against my head I'd say they'll allow gay kids.

 

Plans? If no, I plan to get angry at every loudmouth that sounds off for the next 2 weeks until some Senator farts and distracts the 24-hour news cycle.

If yes, meh. I knew of a few gay kids in our troop when I was a scout myself, and I've been aware of a couple as an adult. The difference now is that kids are pushed to come out as soon as, if not before, they've got their first pube, so it's a different dynamic: It's one thing to have a "funny" kid in the troop, it will be another thing to have an honest-to-God gay kid in the troop. Every normal molehill slight will be made a bigotry mountain, every funny look will be sexual harassment. For every kid that doesn't give a rip, there'll be at least one parent with grave concerns. So, it'll just be learning to deal with the new tension.

Media will be a nightmare either way. First 15-yr-old that gets screwed by a 19-yr-old will be called a victim of "pedophilia" which is a joke. Or, worse, the victims will simply be ignored from now on, since they were never more to the media than a tool in the first place. A yes vote won't satisfy any of the weirdos and their "allies" since it won't allow adults, so we'll have another round of Kick the BSA. And in a year all we're going to get is a crusade over atheists with lots of "we won on gays" smearing in our faces.

 

Maybe I'll add "invest in Valium" to my plans.

Ativan and Xanax at much better. Give them a try and find your happy place.

 

Oh, and take a deep breath, that helps also.

 

If you put a gun to my head, I think the vote will be for no change. My reasoning is that the old Scouters are casting the votes.

llinois was the first state to decriminalize the act of sodomy (in 1962) ' date=' but it was still a criminal offense to solicit another to commit sodomy. Other states gradually repealed the consensual sodomy laws until the 2003 SCOTUS decision (reversing its earlier 1986 decision which said states COULD have anti-sodomy laws).[/quote']

 

Good point. But a good question is, how many states enforced those laws in the 60s, 70s and 80s? One of the local towns still has a law on the books that says it is illegal to drive a car without having a bell ringer walking in front of the car to announce it's presence*. I don't know of anyone (including me) that has had that law enforced upon. I don't know the answer to my question. Anyone have info on that?

 

* That same town apparently has a law on the books that says it's illegal to allow your donkey to sleep in the bathtub. I would love to know the history on that one!

There are also towns that have laws against scoring a touchdown against the home HS team. They are in Texas IIRC

I don't believe the policy was well know till the Dale decision....

 

as a youth in the 70's I don't believe the policy was well known at all. We had a gay ASM back then, single lived with his mother, No big deal, parents kinda raised their eyebrows when he was around never knew why to much later.... BTW, that was pre-youth protection.

Never claimed there was a Golden Age. Thanks for clearing up your argument. A good history lesson also. The BSA should recognize the laws of every state they operate in. Therefor the BSA policies against admitting people involved in criminal acts were insufficient, for those in some states.

I had problem trying to click the edit using Firefox, it worked with Safari.

I don't believe the policy was well know till the Dale decision....

 

as a youth in the 70's I don't believe the policy was well known at all. We had a gay ASM back then, single lived with his mother, No big deal, parents kinda raised their eyebrows when he was around never knew why to much later.... BTW, that was pre-youth protection.

You admit it was not illegal in ALL states. That shoots a giant hole in your argument. It was not a federal crime but a state crime in some but not all states.

So Tam....You just take the Camp Staffs word they completed the requirements?????

 

so how do you know if they acquired the skill to the level your comfortable with.

 

 

I would never delegate my scouts rank advancement to something as Cub Scouty as a first year program at resident camp, which in many cases is day care for your new scouts. While my boys attend one, They do not just get an auto pass on the requirements when we leave camp..... We cover the tenderfoot/Second Class material on the weeks following camp at the troop meetings and the SPL and PL's sign off when the boys have demonstrated the skill to their satisfaction.

 

 

In my opinion these programs are in part responsible to the Low quality of the current Youth Scouts, and their lazy SM's are also to blame..

 

 

 

Although I have no experience with the Scoutcraft programs, I agree 100% that only the troops own should sign off. Our SM has recommended that none of the NSP take it, as we will be covering it all at the campouts and meetings. It is good for the 2nd and 3rd year scouts to teach this as it acts as a refresher for them. Several of our 2nd year scouts were bumbling some knots at a meeting.

 

There is also the problem that the material is to varied and vast to cover and retain in 5 days. Let them rack up a few MBs as a good start so maybe they can make Star by the following summer. They can knock out swimming, first aid, and cooking and have a great foundation. Maybe add leatherwork, basketry, nature or another fun one. My son is very engineering minded so he is going to go for pioneering knowing full well he may not get it the first time around. It should still be fun.

 

At district training they used a lot of Jeopardy games for things like first aid, trees, animals etc. envelopes on a big sheet of cardboard and a white board for keeping score. (Not for fire ).

 

Have some lotion on hand as all the ropes can dry out skin really fast.

 

I would rather see a scout learn half the stuff well than just a survey of everything.

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Yeah that is over the top. Never seen that before, our council has banned generators. The search function works rather poorly right now, so some other time.

 

I would guess flat panels are a rare exception. The electronics ban was overlooked last year during the World Series, but from what I could tell it was just radios and smartphones. Scouting is not tailgating.

I get all your points. Would never consider getting wasted, just a break after a few days would be nice, but not necessary. The camp our troop picked this year has has the option of dinning hall and the boys jumped at it. I was not there for the decision process. The Standard American Diet (SAD) makes me ill, so I may need to pack some meat and veggies and do some cooking for myself. There are only so many hot dogs and beans I can eat. The beans, grains and sugar especially. We are bordering on to much leadership on the front and backend, with about 1:7 ratio midweek.

 

I suspect HA would so completely wipe me out I couldn't lift a bottle. Besides I have sleep apnea and lugging around a 50lb deep cycle battery on a backpacking trip would be unwise. SeaBase may be my only option.

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

I do enjoy myself, everyone should. I am certainly not an expert on the Patrol Method, only a student. Great to hear you are having such success, keep up the good work. Turning away youth is problem not many troops experience, certainly not ours. Once sophomore year hits, they disappear.

 

With your troop now having tents and patrol boxes the only real difference in terms of gear between our troops seems to be maybe a few old Coleman stoves with missing knobs for the Old Goat Patrol, and some Dutch ovens. And of course how we transport all that gear.

 

What have you seen in those trailers that offend you so much ?

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

I would follow the Insignia Guide. Campaign buttons and patches outside the temporary location are not allowed. There is no restriction on slides.

 

You raise an interesting point because there is a certain amount of individualism allowed on the uniform. If a rainbow slide were allowed, would an aborted fetus slide be allowed ? Extreme example, but not implausible. Or a "God hates fags" temporary patch. In the case of patches the BSA could certainly start enforcing its current rule against non-BSA sanctioned patches on the uniform. The slides and neckerchiefs I am not sure about.

 

I suppose I would support banning symbols that are commonly used to portray issues that are really outside the purview of Scouting.

 

I think removal from scouting is a last resort for those that after warnings refuse to comply with National rules.

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Patrol box? What do you use a Patrol box for ? How are you going to haul four or five of those things around when your troop grows because you are delivering a stellar program ? Surely not a gasp "trailer" gasp.

 

"What happened to a boy, a bag and an adventure.

 

Just seems lost in all of the gear."

BD

No doubt obesity is a big problem, but the causes of it are most important. It is not just being lazy, it is the quality of the product our food industry makes available to us. Cow do not eat corn, molasses and grains, they eat grass. Try finding grass feed beef anywhere but at Whole Paycheck. The omega 3 profile of today's beef is vastly different than 40 years ago.

 

Teaching people to eat real food and not processed industrial foods is the solution to obesity. Something that college students would have a tough time doing as many of them are fed a steady diet of processed carbs at the dinning hall.

Try screaming at your monitor. It works for me.

 

A lot of functions are broken. In order to see past the first page on some but not all threads you must use the filter and select "discussions only".

... we face the dilemma of having to decide whether to enter back into the organization after a vote that will either reaffirm a discriminatory policy or start the process of ending it.

 

If you disagree with the policy, it's important that you join and lend your voice to the chorus of equality and fairness. The national BSA only listens to it's members, not outsiders.

 

The fight for equality and fairness will continue regardless of the policy vote outcome.

Agreed. By leaving you just hand the BSA over. Although the BSA listens to more than just its members. They listen to donors.

Make it personal and useful.

 

I love coffee, but I hardly ever go to Starbucks. Too expensive. The committee got me a $15 Starbucks gift card and I was elated with the prospect of extravagance.

 

On the other hand, I have no idea where I put my district award plaque........

 

My wife calls it Fourbucks.

@EmberMike...the BSA policy has always been well known. Don't kid yourself. The reason that it is more "open" now is because of activism, social media and the recent swing in this country of the political pendulum. But the policy has always been well known.

Why doesn't the BSA make its policy a central point in recruitment ? On Scout School Night or the New Parent Information Meeting, why isn't it explicitly explained to the parents that in the future their little 1st grade boy "comes out" as gay that he will be summarily dismissed from the Scouting and any advancement he was working on will be denied ? Not a very positive message for many parents when they are there for a positive message.

@EmberMike...the BSA policy has always been well known. Don't kid yourself. The reason that it is more "open" now is because of activism, social media and the recent swing in this country of the political pendulum. But the policy has always been well known.

I may have been well known among those who have strong feelings on either side of the issue but not so much to the vast middle. I have been in scouting for 5 years now but only two as a leader. The issue never came up in my training. I honestly was not aware of it until the issue of denying Eagles to teens exploded in the news recently. I was always in public school based programs, but I always imagined that it might be an issue in a church based program, not because of the BSA but the church it self. I guess I always assumed a "local option". I missed the whole Dale case as I was not involved at time, and not as much as a new junkie at the time. I also don't use middlemen in my relationship with God, so nobody was thumping me over the issue.

 

I suspect my experience is similar to the public at large. Most parents do not have much of a connection to the BSA beyond their local unit and if it is not an issue to the local leadership why would the parent know about it. I am not asserting it was a secret, but was certainly not something the BSA promoted in its advertisements. Or on the application for that matter.

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

I think it is a real stretch to interpret the resolution as preventing members of scouting from engaging in social or political ativities outside scouting. This forum is outside scouting. A troop meeting, campout, BOR or roundtable is inside scouting. You used the word public the resolution does not.

 

Does it mean you can't put on your uniform and go on TV or picket a funeral and scream "God hates fags". Yes. Does it mean you can't do the same in a troop meeting in the church basement. Yes. Wearing street clothes outside of scouting activities ? I don't think so.

What do all of the public massacres in the past decade or so have in common? They were in places enumerated by law where concealed carry was prohibited by state or federal law. The evil doerss select these places becuase of this fact so they will be unlikely to encounter an armed citizen. Obviously, when children are massacred in a place where lawful carry of firearms by vetted citizens is prohibited it is time to question these unconstitutional laws.

 

As a qualified Tactical Action Officer and Command duty officer, in the Navy we had a plan in place for any type of forced entry into a ship or station. The designated responders immediately dealt with the threat while the rest of the ship remained in place and stayed out of their way in a security alert. This is why it is reasonable to have armed security in every public school with an action plan. Training and a plan are key. Any active shooter can shoot through barriers and locked doors, will only delay for a matter of seconds ... the LEOs won't arrive for many minutes at the best, and the SWAT team for 20min to an hour. It's all over by then. If we can pay for a 100+ educators in a district at $60-80K, and administrators at $100K + salaries we can pay for 5 armed officers or security at $40K. (I'm not against paying teachers well.) We could hire unemployed veterans with existing veterans preference laws. The reason we don't is because the teacher's and LEO unions don't want competition for their salaries, and have a lot of sway with local school boards. In the interim, we could allow teachers and admin staff to be lawfully armed if they have a CHL. I agree a teacher or staff member with a CHL isn't a trained tactician, but all these fears & concerns are largely unfounded until we have ONE example where an armed teacher has misconduct with a firearm. Lets have even and outside chance that the active shooter threat can be stopped by a lawfully armed employee. Because of the current laws, the children still don't have a chance in an active shooter scenario.

Swimming pool ?

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

Skeptic, even out of uniform? Any write up about the other provisions. Would like to see what they are.

Make it personal and useful.

 

I love coffee, but I hardly ever go to Starbucks. Too expensive. The committee got me a $15 Starbucks gift card and I was elated with the prospect of extravagance.

 

On the other hand, I have no idea where I put my district award plaque........

 

So how was your $15 cup of coffee?

Smartphones

Tough spot your troop is in. You can't have bylaws to cover every possible situation. This was just irresponsible of the leader to make such a large financial decision for the troop without consulting the committee.

I would go the district/council route first, but honor the offer in the end, after a very candid talk with the leader and his lack of common sense. The troop should have a policy that any expenditure over say $50 needs at least a verbal approval of the CC.

You will find info in the Leader How To Book. Google is also your friend here. The first page has lots of plans.

 

I have wanted to do this before, but not enough interest in my pack. I think everyone gets burned out from the Pinewood Derby. Also we have apartment dwellers in our pack, so building one is tough for them. Not to mention it does get a bit expensive to build one. Not sure how you get a strip of tire for the break. With the environmental disposal rules now, it is not like you just find them laying around and then how do you cut it.