King Ding Dong

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

I am all for sewing skills for the boys. They should be in First Class or at least a MB. I bet they are required in SeaScouts or should be. A sewing kit is as standard for a sailor as a first aid kit.

TJ, what good is being in the majority if you don't get to dictate the terms for 'fairness'?

Baptists used to be huge supporters of freedom of religion, that is until they became the majority in many states.

So why the non-high adventure base big trips???????

 

So why not the non-HA big trips?

 

If the boys can plan it, fund it, execute it, why not? I don't agree with how some of the mega troops do things where the parents run and fund everything like a mini army. But those of us who raise our own money and do our own planning, why not do a few big trips every year or so?

MB, what happened to Peter Sellers ?

We canoe every summer.....it works out to 25 bucks a boat so $15 per scout with a stop for ice cream on the way home and we make it a day outing instead of a weekend trip to save cost......

 

 

So why the non-high adventure base big trips???????

The same reason people buy 90 inch plasma screens for their bedroom, have a $6,000 Internet connected Kohler toilet with Bluetooth, drive a Hummer, and dogs lick their balls.

 

Because they can.

The trips to the high adventure bases I expected.....

 

But renting a house on the outer banks and surf fishing for a week as a troop?????

 

Smokey mountains complete with laser tag and go cart racing?????

 

Even Gettysburg to do the battlefield hikes?????

 

I sat there just mystified.........

 

I would love the boys to be able to raise all of the money for the entire program year........I don't have big money to spout of pocket to spend on the initial fees........Heck we can't even sell bottled water at the 4th of July fireworks celebration and parade without a $500 vendor permit. In the past few years we sell popcorn, candy bars and flower bulbs pretty successfully.

 

 

Laser tag is a prohibited activity by BSA, not smart to mention that at a roundtable. Another troop I was looking at in NE was an outdoor machine. The dads were all avid outdoorsmen and certified NRA whatevers. That troop was always fishing, boating and HUNTING. I am sure not as an official troop event, just a bunch of friends going hunting. Advancement was not a priority for them, having fun was.

 

Every troop has their own culture, some focus more on civic trips like to DC and museums, some go rouge and hunt, some focus on Eagle by 13/14 before the fumes hit. My current troop seems to fall in the later but advancement still depends on the boy. The mom of one is a teacher and he was Eagle at 13 and at 14 has over 50 MB. I sat on a BOR for for a 1st year who just made Star, been camping with him twice, he knows his stuff. He also has an Eagle older brother and is determined to make Eagle faster than him. That kind of ambition is not a bad thing.

 

A lot of success in life can be attributed to your connections. If the SM or CC is buddies with the Mayor or Parks director, maybe that troop gets a preferential site at the carnival and who knows maybe the vendor fee is waived. If the CO is a big church with full kitchen facilities maybe the troop has a spaghetti diner and the congregation shows up in support. Maybe they go rouge and serve beer also. Boom, big bucks. Do you think the district or council sends out investigators to police this stuff ? Even if someone rats you out, if your troop made their FOS goal, do you think the DE is going to give a hoot ?

When investigating troopwebhost I saw a lot of amazing stuff. Try ski trip to Swiss Alps, that didn't come from popcorn sales, parents have money. My troop has a diverse economic mix, some in apartments some in McMansions. We cater to the lowest common denominator as best we can. The boys wanted to do a float trip and I priced some canoe rentals on the rivers in southern MO, $35 a day was deemed to much, our campouts are usually $20.00. There is a troop not to far from me that charters buses a few times a year for trips. Part of it has do do with the economic status of the scouts, part with size of troop. Roundtable is great for networking. My troop is not big enough charter a bus, but we have tossed around the idea of finding another similar sized troop and collaborating so maybe we can go to Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. There needs to be trust and a relationship between leaders to make that work.

Before I relocated recently there was a troop I was really interested in. Suburban town had an annual 4 day carnival and the troop had some "funnel cake" type fried food trailer they set up. Those boys did nothing for 4 days in June but man that trailer. They made enough money in those four days to pay for the entire program year. Everything. Recharter, campouts, summer camp, COH, high adventure for the older scouts. No popcorn sales, registration fees, nothing.

 

Someone at some point made the investment in that trailer and it paid off big time. Makes you think.

I am new to the Troop but am told the older boys make one high adventure trip a year. This year it SeaBase. Next year summit. I was told SeaBase would cost $900 per Scout. Driving 20 hours to get there.

 

Yeah if the boys want to go they need to work for it. This stuff is planned well over a year in advance. Popcorn money, camp cards, wreaths, calendars. It all adds up. Mow some lawns, rake some leaves, paint some walls. Some bring lunch to school everyday. Some give up weed (good), some sell it (bad).

 

Goes really well with Personal Management MB.

 

Some boys don't want to put the effort into it and don't go, some do. Some would rather put that money to the fumes.

 

Whose ideas are these trips ? Well the BSA thought up the programs and just markets them to the Scouts, So technically its the adults. But if you want the boys to have buy in they need to choose what they want to do.

 

Typical with middle to upper middle class troops. More money, more typical.

I think the determining safety factor is height. Are they planning a 20' tower. I would suggest 4 or 6' first. The other thing is the quality of the sticks. Who is going to determine if they are sturdy enough ? Is that person qualified to make that call ? Your best bet is to check and see if your district or Council has a pioneering kit you can check out. Ours does but it requires a one day training class for the leader to get certified with it.

 

Worst case get some video and you can submit it to the Discovery Channel's Modern Marvels: Pioneering Disasters 23 "Scouts Not So Tough Anymore"

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

Rebel If you are going to go all technical then fine. It is a values program but the outdoors is not a classroom, scouts is not school.

 

The mission and vision statement do not need to say anything about the outdoors. It's all in the name ScOUT.

 

Scouts do not have "restroom facilities" (at least at any scout camp I have been to). They have a latrine. I congratulate you for having such a well adjusted brownie troop. However, the whole camp issue is not something I pulled out of my a@@. The GSUSA leadership thinks your troop is the exception, not the rule. These are statements from GSUSA executives explaining their decisions on why they are selling "rustic" properties and consolidating, so they can build modern facilities with modern conveniences.

 

That mentality severely damaged the BSA in the 70s, there will be a fight to make sure it doesn't come back. Can you explain to me why you think the GSUSA is failing to deliver, if there are all these girls clamoring to do it just like the boys do ?

I guess it come down to why feel the GSUSA is failing. Is it the lack of vision in the leadership or is it a change in the desires of young girls.

 

The boys grumble slightly for a few minutes when we arrive at a camp site and electronics are off in stay in the car but then they completely forget about them after a few minutes, because we are letting them be boys. From my limited research of the issue online that does not appear to be the case with girls in general.

 

Maybe, just maybe if they started out as Tigers and were in a quality unit with a strong outdoor program their attitudes would be different. Do not underestimate the power of the smartphone.

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

I see two problems with those thoughts. Cub scouts is the only family oriented program, that ends at BS. Your solution creates a 10-13 year old doughnut hole.

 

The BS program is an Outdoor program with some family, community and faith.

 

I would be very interested in learning about in the atrocious camping regulations the GSUSA has. I tried a google search but all I came up with was that girls want flush toilets, climate controlled cabins, WIFI and other modern technologies at their camps, so they are selling properties to create more modern camps. (Sound like a Beaches or Sandals all inclusive resort). Why don't they just have a sleepover and call it a day. Sigh.

 

That mentality is why I suspect there will be even more resistance to letting girls in the BSA than in letting in homosexuals.

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

Strong in this one, the power of the Cookie is, indeed.

<< Baloney yourself, SP. The supreme court has hardly been promoting atheism all these decades. They've been pretty good at promoting religious neutrality, which some people just can't accept.

>>

 

 

The Supreme Court has busily vacuumed religion out of the public square, but leaves atheism, environmentalism, socialism, science and other philosophical schools free reign in the public square.

 

THAT is abusive. The Supreme Court and all the littler courts have written their own political biases into the constitution.

 

Nothing new about that, of course.

 

The Supreme Court is the oligarchy that displaced government of the people, by the people, whenever it chooses to do so.

 

 

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me that people think that Christianity will forever and always be the majority religion in the US. If these people get their way and establish the US as a theocracy what happens when say some other religion like radical Islam gains enough power here. I for one do not want my descendants to have to walk around in burkas or get acid thrown on their face to preserve honor.

 

They just can't get it through their heads that the separation of church and state preserves their rights to practice their religion, not prevent it.

 

My only conclusion from all this nonsense is that like Sarah Palin they truly believe they will see the end of days in their lifetime. So what happens to future generations does not matter, they only live in the moment.

As a father with one son and two younger daughters... There is a difference. If my wife has a meeting, I'll often have my younger girls with me. The boys still rough house, but it's different when the girls are there, even at this totally non sexual age. So in an ideal world, I'd say keep them separate.

 

That said, I am my Pack Committee Chair, with no real Pack Committee to speak of, and it's a ton of work. The fact that my wife is out right now at a meeting for the new GSUSA troop we're starting up for the girls is why I'd like to see it co-ed. The fact is, GSUSA is a totally different organization with a different agenda. I'd be thrilled if BSA would dump a pile of books/uniforms on us for Girl Cubs that channels girl interests (like cubs channels boy interests) into citizenship. We could see each other once/month at the Pack meeting, run separate Dens, and show off what we've done.

 

Instead, I have piles of paperwork for two organizations in my house, my wife and I both registered as leaders, and my figuring out how to handle campouts, because we can't double the number, and the GSUSA rules are atrocious.

 

Nor is my garage really big enough to double all our camping gear...

Problem one: parents agree to be partners when they sign the application. If they do not want to contribute to the Pack, there is no Pack. Go find another Pack. Have a parent meeting, list all the activities. If parents do not sign up to organize, erase the activity. No Pinewood Derby this year! If the list gets to sparse, you cannot deliver a cub program. The Pack absolutly has the right to require parents to volunteer their time and take a position of responsibility. Go find another Pack with parents that actually care about the program.

Problem 2: You expect the BSA to develope a program to channel girls interests into citizenship. Do you think they are qualified to do that ? If you think girls interests are the same as boys then I guess they are.

Problem 3: Where do you expect the BSA to find the resources to develop such a program ? If the Girl Scouts want to be absorbed by the BSA, I am sure National will listen to their proposal. I sure would welcome the opportunity to sell cookies rather than crummy popcorn. Don't expect the BSA to change their rules to accommodate atrocious ones developed by GSUSA.

Problem 4: You need to accept the fact that once you have children garages cease to be a place for motor vehicles. Unless you are willing to shell out 1-2 k for a shed.

Problem 5: in a pack every family is responsible for their own camping gear. You cannot have a non functioning Pack Committe and be the Pack Quartermaster.

 

I am going through many of the same problems with my pack. We are not the Baby Sitters of America. I demand a quality program for my son and if the other parents are not willing to help deliver that program, there is not going to be a program and they can go find a pack that is willing to accept them on those terms.

 

I know I can find a pack willing to accept what I have to offer. I bet you can also.

Stick to the Insignia Guide. Don't ever pay attention to Scoutstuff.org. They just want to sell stuff.

 

They sent out an email last week for a Mothers Day promotion, with a Scout Mom patch and a picture of it right on the sleeve under the flag. Unbelievable.

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/events/mother-s-day.html?dir=asc&order=position&SRC=ET&ET_CID=ET_4425_mothersday_2_04292013&Page=Mother%27s+Day&ET_RID=&gen_cid=31618602&gen_rid=399029409

I thought only registered members could wear a uniform. If you are a registered adult member you must have a position code. What position code is "scout mom" ? I didn't realize registered adult leaders did not have to conform to the Insignia Guide.

Still holding out hope that someone has stumbled on it

KA,

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I am a certified YMCA swim instructor and Red Cross Lifeguard and there is stuff in the Swimming MB pamphlet that still perplexes me. I have asked every swim coach or instructor I know and eve certified Red Cross Lifeguard Instructors about the "trudgeon" stroke. No one has ever heard of it. I looked it up on Wikipedia and YouTube and now I get it, but it is ancient history.

 

Some guidance would be extremely helpful. I have noticed they are starting to add some "tips" at least with the new Nova Awards pamphlets.

Even better -- make it a Troop activity. Have a mom come in and use instruction time for a week or two to talk about grocery shopping, then take the whole troop to the store. Before the first campout with the new Scout, the Troop Guides meet them at the grocery store and runs the whole patrol through the process.

Unless you have an extremely small troop, taking them all to the grocery store at the same time is just not good citizenship. It is just rude to everyone else that is there shopping. It is bad enough when a "family pack" of 5 or more mosey down an isle blocking everyone else.

 

A whole troop disrupting all the shoppers would be worthy of a peopleofwalmart.com post.

It wouldn't of course. It is just lazy way of fixing the problems with Girl Scouts.

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

 

The online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting is updated quarterly.

Go to

http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx.

 

VI. Chemical Fuels and Equipment

 

Purpose

This policy directs Boy Scouts of America members how to safely store, handle, and use chemical fuels and equipment. Safety and environmental awareness concerns have persuaded many campers to move away from traditional outdoor campfires in favor of chemical-fueled equipment used for cooking, heating, and lighting. Be aware that chemical fuels and equipment create very different hazards than traditional wood, charcoal, and other solid fuels; this policy defines how to address those hazards.

 

Before any chemical fuels or chemical-fueled equipment is used, an adult knowledgeable about chemical fuels and equipment, including regulatory requirements, should resolve any hazards not specifically addressed within this policy.

 

Definitions

Chemical fuelsâ€â€Liquid, gaseous, or gelled fuels.

 

Approved chemical-fueled equipmentâ€â€Commercially manufactured equipment, including stoves, grills, burners, heaters, and lanterns that are designed to be used with chemical fuels.

 

Prohibited chemical-fueled equipmentâ€â€Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can†stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed.

 

Recommended chemical fuels White gas (Coleman fuel); kerosene; liquefied petroleum gas fuels, including propane, butane, and isobutane; vegetable oil fuels; biodiesel fuel; and commercially prepared gelled-alcohol fuel in original containers.

 

Chemical fuels not recommended Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable chemicals that are not in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions for chemical-fueled equipment.

 

Storing, Handling, and Using Chemical Fuels and Equipment

An adult knowledgeable about chemical fuels and equipment should always supervise youths involved in the storage, handling, and use of chemical fuels and equipment.

 

Operate and maintain chemical-fueled equipment according to the manufacturer’s instructions and in facilities or areas only where and when permitted.

 

Using liquid fuels for starting any type of fireâ€â€including lighting damp wood, charcoal, and ceremonial campfires or displaysâ€â€is prohibited.

 

No flames in tents. This includes burning any solid, liquid, gel, or gas fuelâ€â€including tents or teepees that feature or support stoves or fires; and any chemical-fueled equipment or catalytic heaters.

 

Store chemical fuels in their original containers or in containers designed for immediate use. Securely store any spare fuel away from sources of ignition, buildings, and tents.

 

During transport and storage, properly secure chemical fuel containers in an upright, vertical position.

 

 

 

So... there is nothing in the Guide to Safe Scouting that says liquid fuels are not permitted. Most people think of white gas when they think of liquid fuels. Our troop uses propane and I can think of few reasons that liquid fuels would be a better choice. Sure, if you have a high adventure patrol and they're going to Philmont, maybe something like an MSR stove would make sense. However... I'll recount a brief story that happened to me a few weeks ago. I've been using liquid fuel stoves since I was a Scout. I've got literally decades of experience in camping and using these stoves. We were working as a troop on some 1st & 2nd class rank requirements and were going over the stoves. In keeping with the "adult should supervise" part, I was right there. I broke out the MSR stove and showed the boys how it worked. They were all to get familiar with it. The MSR stove requires that you pressurize the pump/container and prime the stove by allowing a little bit of liquid fuel to pool under the burner. You light it and it heats the stove and then you open the fuel line and off you go. I've done it hundreds of times. Uhhh... this time was different. I (not a boy, but me) bumped against the stove and the liquid fuel (white gas) that was pooled under the burner spilled on the table that we were using to demonstrate the stoves. Of course it was on fire and before I knew it, within seconds, half the table top was aflame. Oh $(#*$#%!!. Yeah, I know, what the heck were we doing this inside for? It was in a big rustic lodge where we were all doing cabin camping. All sorts of things went through my mind - none of them good. I got the stove outside and other leaders quickly extinguished the fire. I would have never, ever, in a million years thought this could have happened. I did a bunch of things wrong - doing this in the lodge, bumping the stove, etc. It could have ended badly. I know you're probably thinking, well, no kidding - don't do stuff like that indoors. Prepare your area. That could never happen to me. I got complacent and had visions of a really horrible outcome. So... while the BSA doesn't have specific rules against liquid fuel, carefully consider when you really need it and when you can use propane. We're in Illinois and propane works 99.9% of the time. I'll personally never use liquid fuel with Scouts again.

 

And, btw, perhaps the camp had a specific rule for reasons just like the one I describe above. Believe me, I feel pretty stupid. And was stupid. I share this story as an example of how bad things could have turned.

Did on of the Scouts cut a corner off your Chit ?

Still holding out hope that someone has stumbled on it

I suppose BSA assumes if you are a MBC, you are an expert in the field and the MB pamphlet should be adequate. I know they have certification requirements for a few of them such as canoeing but not for something really benign like Nuclear Science (what could possibly go wrong there ?)

 

I know a bunch of teenagers that could run circles around the monkey they have coding scouting.org, but benefiting the BSA does not fit the Eagle Service Project rules. Oh, well.

Stick to the Insignia Guide. Don't ever pay attention to Scoutstuff.org. They just want to sell stuff.

 

They sent out an email last week for a Mothers Day promotion, with a Scout Mom patch and a picture of it right on the sleeve under the flag. Unbelievable.

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/events/mother-s-day.html?dir=asc&order=position&SRC=ET&ET_CID=ET_4425_mothersday_2_04292013&Page=Mother%27s+Day&ET_RID=&gen_cid=31618602&gen_rid=399029409

So I was looking at the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award today....and I wanted to ask others.

 

While I love the idea of this award....I feel like it's whole purpose is to promote, there-by raising money for, District/Council Cub Scout Resident/Day Camp.

 

I'm curious how others feel about the award.

I do not know about your Council, ours charges $60 for a full week of day camp. 9am -3:30 pm. Or less for a twilight 5:30-8:00. Don't see much fundraising going on with those prices. 1 night Dad and Lad or Mom and Me is $35/person. a bit more but includes 2 meals, tents and use of the camp pool. I really don't see this as a huge moneymaker for the Council.

The Den Meeting and Resource Guide has a twice a month schedule. The problem with that is if one gets cancelled for some reason (DL sick, Strings Concert, school conferences, etc. ). We start falling behind in requirements. I think scheduling 3 a month is better with the realization that one may get dropped. Of course I have a Webelos DL who thinks once a month den meetings is fine and just gets done in an hour what he can and the awards the activity badge. Nice training for the world of Merit Badges. I call it Webelos Lite.

I would just be happy if they wore the pants and not jeans. Some of the Cubs use the shirt as a jacket and won't even button it. But it sounds like you have a great group that finds value in the method of uniforming. If the parents don't grumble about, go for it. Just realize a $35 jacket may cheese off some parents because now you have upped the uniforming coat over $100.