Scouter99

Admittedly, this thread has wandered far away.

 

Stupid question: You have a member's parent who is in a deeply committed relationship. What do the exact particulars of that relationship have to do with his being a Scouter?

 

What really does sex have to do with Scouting? Please answer that first for different-gender sex. Nothing whatsoever, right?

 

So what does same-gender sex have to do with Scouting? Nothing whatsoever, right?

 

So just what is the difference supposed to be? Huh?

 

Here is a basic principle that we had to make maximum use of while I provided training services during my official expulsion for atheism: A parent is always welcome to a meeting involving his own child. So gay parents are always welcome, including in den meetings and on campouts.

 

And if the gay parent has a practical skill to teach, then what? Ignore that valuable resource? Or make use of it? Again harking back to the Penn and Teller Bullshit! episode on BSA, there was a campout set up with gay and non-gay scouts in which, as I recall, the gay scouts out-performed the non-gay scouts. So you ignore what the gay scouts have to teach you?

 

As for the issue of sex education, I remember a memorable quote from the then-Governor of Mississippi (AKA, "missisloppy" by those, like myself, who had been stationed there) in the mid-to-late 1990's. He was a strong advocate of educational reform. In support for his position on education reform, he said: "We have already tried ignorance, so we know that that does not work." So now the Republicans are doubling down on ignorance -- it didn't work then, so it won't work now either.

Again harking back to the Penn and Teller Bullshit! episode on BSA, there was a campout set up with gay and non-gay scouts in which, as I recall, the gay scouts out-performed the non-gay scouts. So you ignore what the gay scouts have to teach you?

Are you serious right now?

 

See that's an example of something that appears to be a community event, not a scout unit, district or council event--but it is supported and attended heavily by scout units. So we would talk it up in scout meetings, and get the SM on board to count it for the award. That would be something I'd think of as an exceptable under the auspices that isn't technically a scout event.

 

 

Everything does not have to be strictly a Scout Sponsored Event.

However You Must apply BSA Rules

They Obtain a Tour Permit prior to Coming

They Observe BSA Guidelines

 

See that's an example of something that appears to be a community event, not a scout unit, district or council event--but it is supported and attended heavily by scout units. So we would talk it up in scout meetings, and get the SM on board to count it for the award. That would be something I'd think of as an exceptable under the auspices that isn't technically a scout event.

 

 

Everything does not have to be strictly a Scout Sponsored Event.

However You Must apply BSA Rules

They Obtain a Tour Permit prior to Coming

They Observe BSA Guidelines

We did it 20 yrs ago, but now its hit-or-miss. We used Sterimine tablets when I was a kid ("KILLS HIV!"), when they do a 3rd pan now, it's usually just bleach water.

"under the auspicies of the BSA"does not = everything you do as a scout is a scout activity. This award is designed not as a 1 and done or with built in shortcuts, or even that it were to be EASY and everyone in the troop can earn it without trying. I see it as something your long term scouts can earn, when they've already gotten all their mbs and ranks so they focus on taking it up a notch to finish up one of the rocker thingies or the pins. not something your 11 year old scout will get in a year or even two.

Actually, an active, involved scout in a decent troop can easily earn the Camping badge in less than 2 years of membership. Our troop camps 2 nights/month most months, an active boy could easily get his 24 nights in 18 months. The biggest speed bump anyone in our troop encounters is the requirement to earn First Class; we don't ramrod them through First Class, so most of them actually have over 30 nights before I introduce the award to them in their second year. I generally introduce it to the scout as soon as he has 24 nights, because at that point the award's requirements are a good roadmap to what MBs to earn (if he's interested in the different badges) just at the point he's going to start earning MBs.

 

The award also has plenty of "built-in shortcuts"--http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx

The adventure badge allows for 1 event to be counted multiple times "A single activity that satisfies multiple items in 3a-g may be counted as separate activities at the discretion of the unit leader. Similarly, a single activity that doubles an item in 3a-d may be counted as two activities at the discretion of the unit leader."

 

So, take backpacking: "A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply"

A single backpacking trip of 6 days covering 40 miles w/o resupply would count as 2 adventure credits.

 

But, I would not call the various other means of multiple credit "shortcuts" they're the requirements as written and badge is still difficult to earn and prestigious.

 

Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make charmoc's "fudging" ludicrous.

 

this has taken a turn to parallel something I run into with the cubs.

Sometimes there will be a requirement to say, visit a library.... either as part of an elective or part of an achievement.

 

Well I'm pretty sure that every boy in the pack has at least a few times been in their school library. Most if not all have visited their local public library too, more times than they can count.

So does that mean that every boy then, will automatically get signed off for that requirement?

.... or must it be an organized thing that is preplanned by the den leader?

 

The answer isn't really clear.

 

For me and my son, I have marched under the assumption that it

a) must have happened during this current scout year

b) if it wasn't something that was formally done as a meeting, then I will be sure to look at the book with my son together, talk about the requirement and what he did, how it meets the requirement (or not), etc....

then I'll sign him off.

 

blw, your "example" is a non sequitur for this specific award, which clearly states in foolproof language that the activity must be done as part of the scouting program, "under the auspices of the BSA." Then again, as charmoc is demonstrating, nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool.

 

Charmoc, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. While spouting about "opinions on this forum" and citing the GtA, you continue to post your own incorrect, ignorant opinion which is in direct contradiction to the BSA Advancement Team's official answer to this question. You are a jester.

 

Chris Hunt of the BSA Advancement Team has answered this question in the plainest language for Scouting Magazine: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...omment-page-1/

"At a Scouting event" and "under the auspices of the BSA" mean the same thing.

 

If you think that going to the swimming pool is "under the auspices of the BSA" then the next time your kid is there by himself, break his arm and file a BSA insurance request if you're so confident you're right.

5. Take five hikes, each on a different day, and each of 10 continuous miles. You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, during each hike, but not for an extended period (example: overnight). Prepare a hike plan for each hike.*

6. Take a hike of 20 continuous miles in one day following a hike plan you have prepared. You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, but not for an extended period (example: overnight).

I know of at least one scouters son who will receive the award unearned.

Scouter99

 

Oh I'm pretty sure any scout in our troop should have the camping rocker thingy, because we do camp 2 nights every month, plus a week long summer camp of 6 nites, so that's 28 nites a year (11x2+6) that is if they go on all the campouts, eh? I think comparatively, camping is the easiest one to get, almost too easy.....

 

I don't think the allowances to count this or that are shortcuts, those are just the rules man!

I agree that

"Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make ANY "fudging" ludicrous."

 

 

"under the auspicies of the BSA"does not = everything you do as a scout is a scout activity. This award is designed not as a 1 and done or with built in shortcuts, or even that it were to be EASY and everyone in the troop can earn it without trying. I see it as something your long term scouts can earn, when they've already gotten all their mbs and ranks so they focus on taking it up a notch to finish up one of the rocker thingies or the pins. not something your 11 year old scout will get in a year or even two.

Actually, an active, involved scout in a decent troop can easily earn the Camping badge in less than 2 years of membership. Our troop camps 2 nights/month most months, an active boy could easily get his 24 nights in 18 months. The biggest speed bump anyone in our troop encounters is the requirement to earn First Class; we don't ramrod them through First Class, so most of them actually have over 30 nights before I introduce the award to them in their second year. I generally introduce it to the scout as soon as he has 24 nights, because at that point the award's requirements are a good roadmap to what MBs to earn (if he's interested in the different badges) just at the point he's going to start earning MBs.

 

The award also has plenty of "built-in shortcuts"--http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx

The adventure badge allows for 1 event to be counted multiple times "A single activity that satisfies multiple items in 3a-g may be counted as separate activities at the discretion of the unit leader. Similarly, a single activity that doubles an item in 3a-d may be counted as two activities at the discretion of the unit leader."

 

So, take backpacking: "A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply"

A single backpacking trip of 6 days covering 40 miles w/o resupply would count as 2 adventure credits.

 

But, I would not call the various other means of multiple credit "shortcuts" they're the requirements as written and badge is still difficult to earn and prestigious.

 

Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make charmoc's "fudging" ludicrous.

 

this has taken a turn to parallel something I run into with the cubs.

Sometimes there will be a requirement to say, visit a library.... either as part of an elective or part of an achievement.

 

Well I'm pretty sure that every boy in the pack has at least a few times been in their school library. Most if not all have visited their local public library too, more times than they can count.

So does that mean that every boy then, will automatically get signed off for that requirement?

.... or must it be an organized thing that is preplanned by the den leader?

 

The answer isn't really clear.

 

For me and my son, I have marched under the assumption that it

a) must have happened during this current scout year

b) if it wasn't something that was formally done as a meeting, then I will be sure to look at the book with my son together, talk about the requirement and what he did, how it meets the requirement (or not), etc....

then I'll sign him off.

 

blw, your "example" is a non sequitur for this specific award, which clearly states in foolproof language that the activity must be done as part of the scouting program, "under the auspices of the BSA." Then again, as charmoc is demonstrating, nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool.

 

Charmoc, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. While spouting about "opinions on this forum" and citing the GtA, you continue to post your own incorrect, ignorant opinion which is in direct contradiction to the BSA Advancement Team's official answer to this question. You are a jester.

 

Chris Hunt of the BSA Advancement Team has answered this question in the plainest language for Scouting Magazine: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...omment-page-1/

"At a Scouting event" and "under the auspices of the BSA" mean the same thing.

 

If you think that going to the swimming pool is "under the auspices of the BSA" then the next time your kid is there by himself, break his arm and file a BSA insurance request if you're so confident you're right.

Again, this is very plain. If you think that a boy who happens to be a scout walks somewhere with boots on makes him "hiking under the auspices of BSA", then go ahead and send your boy down the road to the store and sprain his ankle on the way and see how far your BSA insurance claim gets.

"under the auspicies of the BSA"does not = everything you do as a scout is a scout activity. This award is designed not as a 1 and done or with built in shortcuts, or even that it were to be EASY and everyone in the troop can earn it without trying. I see it as something your long term scouts can earn, when they've already gotten all their mbs and ranks so they focus on taking it up a notch to finish up one of the rocker thingies or the pins. not something your 11 year old scout will get in a year or even two.

Actually, an active, involved scout in a decent troop can easily earn the Camping badge in less than 2 years of membership. Our troop camps 2 nights/month most months, an active boy could easily get his 24 nights in 18 months. The biggest speed bump anyone in our troop encounters is the requirement to earn First Class; we don't ramrod them through First Class, so most of them actually have over 30 nights before I introduce the award to them in their second year. I generally introduce it to the scout as soon as he has 24 nights, because at that point the award's requirements are a good roadmap to what MBs to earn (if he's interested in the different badges) just at the point he's going to start earning MBs.

The award also has plenty of "built-in shortcuts"--http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx

The adventure badge allows for 1 event to be counted multiple times "A single activity that satisfies multiple items in 3a-g may be counted as separate activities at the discretion of the unit leader. Similarly, a single activity that doubles an item in 3a-d may be counted as two activities at the discretion of the unit leader."

So, take backpacking: "A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply"

A single backpacking trip of 6 days covering 40 miles w/o resupply would count as 2 adventure credits.

But, I would not call the various other means of multiple credit "shortcuts" they're the requirements as written and badge is still difficult to earn and prestigious.

Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make charmoc's "fudging" ludicrous.

this has taken a turn to parallel something I run into with the cubs.

Sometimes there will be a requirement to say, visit a library.... either as part of an elective or part of an achievement.

 

Well I'm pretty sure that every boy in the pack has at least a few times been in their school library. Most if not all have visited their local public library too, more times than they can count.

So does that mean that every boy then, will automatically get signed off for that requirement?

.... or must it be an organized thing that is preplanned by the den leader?

 

The answer isn't really clear.

 

For me and my son, I have marched under the assumption that it

a) must have happened during this current scout year

b) if it wasn't something that was formally done as a meeting, then I will be sure to look at the book with my son together, talk about the requirement and what he did, how it meets the requirement (or not), etc....

then I'll sign him off.

blw, your "example" is a non sequitur for this specific award, which clearly states in foolproof language that the activity must be done as part of the scouting program, "under the auspices of the BSA." Then again, as charmoc is demonstrating, nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool.

Charmoc, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. While spouting about "opinions on this forum" and citing the GtA, you continue to post your own incorrect, ignorant opinion which is in direct contradiction to the BSA Advancement Team's official answer to this question. You are a jester.

Chris Hunt of the BSA Advancement Team has answered this question in the plainest language for Scouting Magazine: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...omment-page-1/

"At a Scouting event" and "under the auspices of the BSA" mean the same thing.

If you think that going to the swimming pool is "under the auspices of the BSA" then the next time your kid is there by himself, break his arm and file a BSA insurance request if you're so confident you're right.

Ok 99.9% of teenagers will not follow some uptight prissy conservative view, be it their parents or teachers.. 99.9% will learn in the locker rooms that which is not discussed in home & school but it will have added to it some childhood imaginations, and being passed around through rumors & innuendos will not be given out correctly.. I guess somehow you were hatched as an adult and never went though any teen years so are not aware that teens do not listen to adults.. So you got through to .01% of your teenage kids.. Celebrate.. What is going to happen to the other 99.9% of them who are ill prepared???

 

Do these states have a worse education system and more poverty.. I would imagine they do.. They are Republican states, so those state governments should work on those problems also.

 

I would hang my hat on these statics over Rick Perry forcing Abstinence only education in Texas because "it worked for him"... Maybe the fact that he is a male unable to become pregnant had something to do with it.. and "yes" not having sex works, it is just it is unrealistic to believe the kids will do that, and when they don't they are unprepared to protect themselves from it.. Our schools do not teach sex and promiscuity and here is your condoms and birth control pills.. They teach a balance of it all, respect for yourself, respect for your body, making sure you are mentally ready, withstanding peer pressure.. These lessons do not have to be rolled up in religious scripture to be taught.. But then we respect our teens enough to know that at some point they will take that big step, and here is what you need to know when you do..

 

The Republican "Big Government" rules and regulations are just being voted in.. We will know in a few years when the Northern states teen pregnancy keep going down and the states with these new regulations start to rise up..

Even the idea of "Republican" and "Democrat" states is silly; party platforms are not static, and electorates are not static. 10 years ago Virginia went Bush, now it went Obama; etc etc all over the country. Those "Republican" states that are bright red at the bottom of the map? 40 years ago they were "Democrat" states.

What your map shows to anyone with an iota of objectivity is that teen pregnancy rates are not a matter of party politics; in fact, for 8 years of Bush II's presidency, federal policy was abstinence-only and rates continued to fall. What the map shows is that a wide variety of factors effect teen pregnancy rates from race to economic to culture.

Your council probably has the old VHS available for checkout.

The BSA needs to do a better job communicating their value proposition to the American public. They need to explain why kids' time is better spent in scouting rather than playing sports, playing video games, watching TV, etc. I don't see the BSA doing any advertising on social media, online media, or traditional media. I would like to see the BSA counter the negative media news by touting all the positive aspects of scouting like outdoor adventure, state-of-the-art youth protection, and leadership training.

 

The NatGeo show "Are You Tougher Than a Boy Scout" is a great way to get kids interested in scouting but there needs to be more along those lines.

 

The problem with a national campaign is that it depends on units and councils to work. If National spends $XX on TV spots in Townville, but the council isn't able, willing, or interested in facilitating a large influx of new recruits, then all National has done is waste that money and create ill will on the part of the new recruits who fall through the cracks.

National has put the money in where they can best spend it, and created a complete marketing package that is available for free to any council that wants to use it: http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/con...ecruiting.aspx

 

This could sound like excuse-making, but take a look at BeAscout.org and put in your own ZIP code. I use it routinely to try and find contact info for troops across the country, but it has almost always not been configured. Free marketing for every unit in the country, but virtually no units are taking advantage of it.

Book is on sale through July 4 for $13 at my website. http://www.menofschiff.org

Look, KDD, the meaning of "under the auspices of BSA" is clear: It means on an official patrol, troop, district, council, national, or OA activity. It does not mean every/any time a boy who is a scout touches a horse, bike, boot, tent, or swim trunks.

If you want to be cute and count non-scout events, then you might as well count every shower or bath for the next 50 days and mark him off for 25 hours of aquatics time, and have him wear his boots to the mall and count it as hiking. Earning the medal is a great, really cool goal for Prince Ding Dong, but if you're going to fudge it, you make it worth nothing.

 

Regardless of its impact on Prince Ding Dong's ability to earn the NOA, if your troop doesn't meet summers, get on BeAScout.org tonight and find a new troop.

Look, KDD, the meaning of "under the auspices of BSA" is clear: It means on an official patrol, troop, district, council, national, or OA activity. It does not mean every/any time a boy who is a scout touches a horse, bike, boot, tent, or swim trunks.

If you want to be cute and count non-scout events, then you might as well count every shower or bath for the next 50 days and mark him off for 25 hours of aquatics time, and have him wear his boots to the mall and count it as hiking. Earning the medal is a great, really cool goal for Prince Ding Dong, but if you're going to fudge it, you make it worth nothing.

 

Regardless of its impact on Prince Ding Dong's ability to earn the NOA, if your troop doesn't meet summers, get on BeAScout.org tonight and find a new troop.

The BSA needs to do a better job communicating their value proposition to the American public. They need to explain why kids' time is better spent in scouting rather than playing sports, playing video games, watching TV, etc. I don't see the BSA doing any advertising on social media, online media, or traditional media. I would like to see the BSA counter the negative media news by touting all the positive aspects of scouting like outdoor adventure, state-of-the-art youth protection, and leadership training.

 

The NatGeo show "Are You Tougher Than a Boy Scout" is a great way to get kids interested in scouting but there needs to be more along those lines.

The problem with a national campaign is that it depends on units and councils to work. If National spends $XX on TV spots in Townville, but the council isn't able, willing, or interested in facilitating a large influx of new recruits, then all National has done is waste that money and create ill will on the part of the new recruits who fall through the cracks.

National has put the money in where they can best spend it, and created a complete marketing package that is available for free to any council that wants to use it: http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/con...ecruiting.aspx

This could sound like excuse-making, but take a look at BeAscout.org and put in your own ZIP code. I use it routinely to try and find contact info for troops across the country, but it has almost always not been configured. Free marketing for every unit in the country, but virtually no units are taking advantage of it.

Look, KDD, the meaning of "under the auspices of BSA" is clear: It means on an official patrol, troop, district, council, national, or OA activity. It does not mean every/any time a boy who is a scout touches a horse, bike, boot, tent, or swim trunks.

If you want to be cute and count non-scout events, then you might as well count every shower or bath for the next 50 days and mark him off for 25 hours of aquatics time, and have him wear his boots to the mall and count it as hiking. Earning the medal is a great, really cool goal for Prince Ding Dong, but if you're going to fudge it, you make it worth nothing.

Regardless of its impact on Prince Ding Dong's ability to earn the NOA, if your troop doesn't meet summers, get on BeAScout.org tonight and find a new troop.

I'm pretty sure both my sons should have the camping segment with a pin thingy.

They are low on hours on the water, but did go to a San Diego beach camp and got a lot of hours there so I'd have to go thru and add them up plus other hours swimming and boating/canoeing.

They certainly are low on the high adventure stuff and the others too.

There is something at the troop level for most of these, but may not be enough that a boy who is with the troop from 11-18 still might not get enough hours/miles. So it would be a good thing to suggest to the scouts to kick it up a notch.

Not every Scout is in Scouting to earn Rank and To Earn Awards. Some Scouts join just for the Friendship and Fun. Fun Being the Camping, Hiking, Canoeing, Sail boating and the Great Scout Bases and Camps and the Fun they can have there. Fun is affording them a chance to do something Different than what they can do at Home. Scouting is never fun when you force Rank and earning Awards on them. To Many People have forgotten the "outing" in Scouting. Sounds like the Award is for your "pride".

My son's troop is active in all areas in this award except for riding........Lucky that way I guess......So there is no need to look beyond the troop for nights or miles, or hours for any of the requirements.

The medal only requires Camping, the gold devices in the other badges can be in any two of the remaining 4. So if riding is too expensive, look at aquatics, adventure, or hiking.

Auspices means “under the support and guidance†of said sponsor, not during a sponsored event. This award is an individual achievement just like earning merit badges where scouts full requirements without having to be on scouting events. So scouting supports your son to be active in the out of doors and provides guidance on how to do this through the Scout handbook, filed book and earning rank and merit badges.

There are very few troops that would be able to provide such a program to its scouts to allow the scout to meet what is required to fill these requirements, so under the guidance and support of the scouting program a scout can fulfill many of these requirement with the blessings of the scouting program and guidance.

By 1991, most of the headlines BSA was grabbing were related to the 3G's. However, in Los Angeles the Council was being audited because a former paid professional alleged membership fraud in the council's inner-city outreach program. BSA National refused to allow an outside audit of the council's rolls and reported that the council had indeed inflated its rolls, but only by about 1,800 youth. Other former paid professionals reported that the actual number was more like 16,000, from a total of 80,000. It should be noted that by 2000, the council reported about 41,000 registered youth.

 

Another former paid professional blew the whistle on another membership scandal in 1994 on the Andrew Jackson Council (Vicksburg, MS). Brian Paul Freese, "wrote in his resignation letter that he had been threatened with termination for refusing to create fake units and pay their registration fees to national headquarters with diverted funds."

"Phil Gee, a Scout volunteer who was among those who blew the whistle on the alleged practices, said local and national Scout audits found 6,000 inactive Scouts on the rolls. The council's numbers were reduced from 14,000 to 8,000 after all the "ghosts" were purged, Mr. Gee said."

 

For the first time that we know of, an independent review of a Council's membership rolls (albeit a small section) was prepared in 1999. The University of North Florida conducted a study for the Jessie Ball duPont Fund, which provided funds to the Northeast Florida Council (Jacksonville, FL) to provide Scouting to youth in public housing projects (the report can be read here.). The Fund gave more than $327,000, over an eight-year period, to the council for this project. Of the 600 scouts the council claimed, the study could only verify less than 100 and only 125 of the 285 adult volunteer leaders claimed.

 

After more than 25 years of public airing of BSA's fraudulent activities it should have come as no surprise to the Circle Ten Council (Dallas, TX), when federal agents raided their offices on the morning of 7 April 2000. This raid started a federal investigation into the Council's fraudulent membership reporting. The investigation resulted in the impanelling of a federal grand jury in 2003 to examine the evidence and hear testimony from government witnesses. As of January 2005, that examination was yet to be concluded.

However, since the raid, the council has revised their membership rolls by -35%, or a reduction of 20,000 youth. The local United Way chapter, "which had steadily increased its contributions over 10 years based on Circle Ten's membership claims, has reduced donations" to the council each year, since 2000.

 

"In Atlanta, independent auditors are investigating claims the metro area´s Boy Scouts inflated black membership numbers to 20,000 to gain more donations. A civil rights leader contends there are no more than 500 blacks actively involved." For more information on this current scandal, click here. At the end of 2004, we learned that the FBI was investigating the Greater Alabama Council (Birmingham, AL) for yet another fraudulent membership scheme. We'll probably read about the council revising their membership numbers in the next couple of months. However, until a paid BSA professional is prosecuted for fraud, there will be no incentive to other paid professionals to just say no to BSA National's insistence on inflating membership figures. Until BSA allows outside and independent audits to be conducted of its membership rolls, the public will have no confidence in the membership figures printed in BSA's Annual Report to Congress .

It's great that mom is on board; I would generally have expected her to smack the SM in the back of the head.

It's great that mom is on board; I would generally have expected her to smack the SM in the back of the head.

What we will see next is a push for the legalization of polygamy under similar equal protection arguments because it is, after all, between consenting adults. Then as Scouter 99 points out, we will see consent and "statutory" rape weakened. After all, an 18-year old woman pursuing a 14-year old girl just does not have the same ring to it as an 18 year old man and a 14 year old girl: http://www.worldmag.com/2013/05/father_of_18_year_old_lesbian_calls_daughter_s_statutory_rape_charge_unfair. From that point, who knows? Everything moves faster when you're going downhill after all.

Once they get state-level recognition/rights, then they can contemplate a return to their more radical druthers--maybe they will, maybe they won't. The difficulty then will be the change in cultural beliefs about heterosexual young-old relationships. In the past, heterosexuals were routinely engaging in youth-adult relationships while condemning gay men for doing the same because of the perceptions--gay sex feminizes the boy. But, now heterosexual adult-youth relationships are also taboo, so there isn't a double-standard to be rectified by normalizing boy relationships.