Scouter99

I should add that it has become almost imparitive that unit leaders have a discussion with youth regarding such types of conduct and make them understand that any type of this "horse-play" will likely get them a one way ticket out of BSA permenantly. This is one part of youth protection training that we as leaders usually dismiss or fail to teach altogether. We are so concerned about the "bad" adults that we fail to understand the individual risks to the youth that gets mixed up in ANY type of sexual exploration / sexual misconduct accusations. The organization will circle the wagons and protect itself in a situation such as this... that means removing the "few" for the good of the "many" - regardless of motive, intent, or guilt of action.

The insert for parents/sons at the beginning of the book is sufficient, A Time to Tell covers youth-youth abuse.

Has anyone ever "respectively declined" an adult award (like a James West)?

 

Not for other awards like the Scouter Key, but I could see how someone would turn down a "purchased" knot. I know BSA says its not (or knot ), but when you donate money and they give you a knot, that's purchased in my book.

BPSA founded in 2008 and run out of a guys basement in Washington Mo. (small town outside of St. Louis) 19 units nationwide. Not sure I would jump

in with both feet with this group if the vote does not go your way. Last I read about them they were looking for donations to fund background checks

for potential leaders. I guess all groups have to start somewhere.

We have a cub scout mom starting a BPSA unit for her 7yo daughter. We will be running the BPSA program in parallel to our cub scout program and treating the BPSA unit just like a den.

A guy I know threw away his new unit organizer award that was given to him for be the leader of a paper Venture crew. He wasn't in a position to "respectfully decline" it because they didn't give it to him at any kind of public thing, so he just chucked it in the trash where it belonged.

I wouldn't really see the point of declining an award unless they were going to present it to you in front of people. If you don't want it, just don't put it on your uniform.

As noted by a few others, my troop will sign for less-than-whole improvement (0 to 1/2, 1/2 to 1, etc) on pullups, situps, and pushups, but the rest of them don't really lend themselves to an incremental approach.

I generally despise, in the strongest sense of the word, "fudging" but in an honest case like CaveEagle's where the boy is trying and he has improved in the rest, yeah, if you have to get out your microscope it doesn't say "improve in each" it says "show improvement in the activities listed.

But the boys in your case aren't trying, and, no, I wouldn't sign them off until they did.

Sentinel, my oldest son has Klinefelter's Syndrome. He is a 20 y.o. Eagle Scout and can't do one pullup, and very few pushups. Is he physically fit? Yes, he can run far and fast, plays a lot of ultimate, hikes with the Troop every month and competed in wrestling and baseball for years. He has endurance to spare and a resting HR of about 60. But he has very little strength for his size (6'3") because of his disorder. I can't imagine how he would have reacted had his Scoutmasters demanded a full pullup before advacing. Our Troop allows them to show improvement by going from 0 to 1/2 or 1/2 to full.

 

Pullups are a test of raw strength related to body weight, not fitness.

Fitness has 4 components: Cardio, Strength/Endurance (some people split these, making 5), flexibility, and body composition. A man that can lift 500 pounds, but can't run 100 yds is not fit. A man that can do the splits but can't do 1 pullup is not fit. A man that can run 10 miles but not touch his toes is not fit.

It's great that your son is a successful athlete despite his illness, but that doesn't change the definition of physically fit. In either case, the question in the OP isn't about kids with illness, it's about regular kids. BSA accommodates for people with honest issues, the boys in question just aren't trying.

I can't get some of my leaders to put on basic insignia' date=' but they do a great job anyway. For many folks in my pack, they resort to three options: Use Badge Magic, hire someone to do it, or don't do anything at all. The art and science of sewing is lost, at least in my neighborhood. No one seems to keep sewing kits at home anymore. Needless to say, I don't bother with uniform inspections. [/quote']

That, my friend, is what we call a feedback loop.

We had a few guys miss tap out for some reason when I was a kid. We just got a few of the OA members from the troop, they took off their shirts and put on their sashes and did the tap out without warning one Monday night. As far as I know, it didn't cause any earthquakes and the lodge didn't disband or anything.

Is this about MozartBrau? I don't really get the left-field rant. Whether you're sleeping under plastic sheets, Litepac home-made tents, or Eureka Timberlines, your unit needs money. If you haven't, I'd suggest you read David Scott's "The Scouting Party" to get some honest history (not the handbook fairytale) about the founders and, yes, the role fundraising/money has played since Day One; DC Beard complained incessantly about his salary, charged troops money to visit, and continued publishing parallel books. Hit Boys' Life's Wayback machine and you'll see the money dynamic at work on every page.

High Adventure is what keeps older boys in a troop irrespective of how beautiful the stars are 10 miles down the road as opposed to 1,000--because they're boys, and thank God for that.

Tents are what you sleep in and gear is what you camp with; read Dan Beard's "The Book of Camp-Lore and Woodcraft" for his comments, in 1920, of the erroneous mindset about "roughing it" as opposed to being at comfort in the wild.

If you're lucky enough to have a troop over 5 scouts and you're lucky enough that you're taking more than 10 of them out camping, yeah, it's going to take more than two drivers' trunks to get the gear there. Does that mean a troop RV? No, certainly not. For some units renting a truck once a month makes the best sense, for some having a trailer makes the best sense. If the boys don't mind their fundraising going to it, and the committee approves it, there's nothing wrong with it.

My unit has those $200 tents (we worked out butts off for them), we have that trailer (we worked our butts off for it), we've got a stove and cook kit for every patrol (yep, earned those, too) and guess what? The boys are perfectly happy playing with a $5 Frisbee, which they do incessantly, AND they also enjoy sleeping in a tent. Imagine, having it both ways, wild!

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a troop being financially successful. And there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a financially successful/lucky troop putting that money into good gear. There is no intrinsic conflict between a boy-led/boy-centric program and good finances.

There's no argument here, just your jaded PoV, which you're welcome to, but you don't need to spew on anyone else to get the bile out.

Ya MB

 

whose on the adult power trip.

 

I think your stepping way over the line on this.....

 

 

So far we have three of us telling you don't do it.

 

Your taking a council/district level thing and bringing it to the troop level......It was not intended to be that way......

 

 

 

They way I view the OA is the next step in scouting for the youth. They are beginning to spread their wings and experience life beyond the microsociety of the troop. I am excited for my boys...All of them have registered for the Ordeal, I am going to drive them out friday night and bring them back sunday morning.

In the zero tolerance era of sexual misconduct I can see why the membership got pulled. I would assume both boys memberships were revoked. This could be our future with gay youth possibly being allowed membership.....

This isn't a gay issue. It's a teenage boy issue.

Along Packsaddle's comment, I really do hope you didn't feel pressured by me; my sarcasm was directed at the process, not at you, Scout_98. Maybe someone with "supermoderator" under their name can delete your post if you want.

I can definitely see how the hammer came down hard and swift, but anyone who works with youth and doesn't have scales on their eyes knows this is common (maybe not on camping trips, but in general) and normal, and doesn't indicate homosexuality any more than if the kid wore a salmon-colored shirt one day. The historical and sociological events that have led to this sort of black/white, alarmist, gay/straight attitude about these things is too long to get into. Whoever the sympathetic SM is, that's a virtuous and brave man.

I have to agree with BasementD as far as the scope; I certainly hope that your son wasn't singled-out out of 3 actors. And I hope that if you were given assurances re: the psych's statement that they'll be honored now that you have the statement. As far as Kristian's point about money on appeals, I have a feeling that in 4 weeks once they've voted on this membership resolution the whole thing will be a non-issue, anyway.

As for those who know anything about the process, I am still confused as to the order of operations that seems to have taken place. If the decision was made by National, could a Regional appeal have mattered in the first place?

According to the OP, there was nothing criminal.

The question was about the time frame. The OP indicated that the details were not 'on the table'. I'm good with that.

Did you try phoning the committee and asking them?

Anyway, I'm curious as to how your son got kicked out to begin with if everyone within 500 miles of him thinks he should not have been.

You say he was kicked out by "BSA" which I would interpret as National, but under what circumstances besides homosexuality or atheism would National reach down from On High to kick a kid out? If it was anything else, you'd think the troop, district, or council acted on the incident. If it was National, why would the Regional committee hear an appeal; can a region overturn a decision that National made? If the Region and Scout Executive are so supportive, why didn't they just adjourn until you could find a psych that would testify instead of ruling against you and kicking you up to National?

If he was just kicked out of his troop, you could join another troop, considering you say that "some scoutmasters" don't think he should have been kicked out.

It's understandable that you don't want to broadcast whatever special crime your boy committed, but I don't understand how the process side of things has played out. Who, precisely, kicked him out?

Thanks for all the input!

Time will be cut down a lot because we have a set of spars, mostly Bradford Pear branches, with a smattering of poplar oak saplings (chill out, No-Tracers, I got the saplings when the railroad bush-hogged the rail bed).

 

The height really is my concern, the plans call for 16' spars, which places the platform ~13' in the air. I also just don't see how you can hang a ladder off one side and not pull the whole thing over when climbing onto it.

Time will be cut down a lot because we have a set of spars, mostly Bradford Pear branches, with a smattering of poplar oak saplings (chill out, No-Tracers, I got the saplings when the railroad bush-hogged the rail bed).

The height really is my concern, the plans call for 16' spars, which places the platform ~13' in the air. I also just don't see how you can hang a ladder off one side and not pull the whole thing over when climbing onto it.

I suppose this belongs in the Program forum, but that's broken, so I've placed it here.

We've got a scout show coming up, so I asked one of the boys to take charge of building a tower, and told him to pick a design and lead the boys to build it. He called to say he'd picked one, and emailed me the design. It's the tripod tower.

If you're unfamiliar, here's a drawing, taken from the "Scout Engineering" pamphlet, p 14 http://www.truthistreason.net/downloads/Scout_Engineering.pdf:

If you ask me, it looks like a death trap. They boys are certainly capable of building it, and I don't plan to stop them, but . . . well it's not the tower I would have picked. I've seen them on paper, but never in practice. Does anyone out there have any experience with these? Are they stable/safe? How long it might take to build? Sundry advice...

Anyway' date=' the fact that we have to define non-sectarianism may just be due to it being so ubiquitous.[/quote']

 

I think that's true. I think that we can never know how deeply we are indebted to the founding fathers for ingraining both religious freedom and separation of church/state into our gov't and thereby culture before the rise of nationalism and the sectarianism that came with it. We just can't really imagine saying that you can't be an American if you're not a Baptist, much less going next door and jabbing our neighbors' eyes out because they're a different religion. For another thing, we rarely see non- in front of the word, and it's clear that most of the responders here don't even have a clear understanding of what sectarianism is. Let's look at the contrast: In France, the largest Scouting association is a federation of a scouting organization for protestants, one for Catholics, one for Muslims, one for Jews, and one that is inter-religious. Can you imagine? It's ludicrous in our estimation. Russia is worse. Austria is similar. etc etc.

Our troop hadn't done it in a long time. Several years ago, the SM did something he called TLT, but it was some 3-hour PowerPoint he made. Last year an ASM did it, but gutted it and pared it town to a 1-hour lecture--both with predictable non-results.

Your last option is flawed in that it implies that a troop must or is doing TLT if they send boys to NYLT, which is not the case. We require NYLT of any candidate for SPL.

I'm not sure what your council does or what qualifies as "quickly" for you, but NYLT here is a week long.

I am in charge of uniform inspection contest this weekend at Camporee.

There are free copies of both the Guide to Awards and Insignia and Uniform Inspection online.

Uniforms/Insignia: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx

Inspection Sheet: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34283.pdf

You can get a paper copy of the Guide for ~$6 if your local scout shop carries them. If not, you can get one for $15 after ScoutStuff.org charges you eleventy-hundred dollars for shipping

Probably because the people in units you serve have no idea what the arrowhead entails. Being trained is part of the Scoutmaster's Key and the Leader's Training Award, but we don't remove the Trained patch after earning those, either.

I do wonder if they'll get rid of the Trained strip as 100% training goes into effect as a condition of registration/recharter (but I imagine that's a subject for a new thread).

Some people can't see the forest for the trees. Uniform polices can't be compared to polices designed to ensure the health' date=' and safety of program participants. BSA clearly views these things differently, ask any SE how he would react to a uniform violation, and a case of scout abuse ... sophomoric conversation no, instructive discussion, yes. You need to put your focus on the aims of scouting, and while absolutely ensuring the health, safety, and well being of all program participants, do what it takes to accomplish those aims. An image that I always recall at such times is a venerable scouter rising from the table during s heated discussion, picking up a scout handbook, flexing it, and saying "it's flexible, just like the program". In my time in scouting I've seen countless changes to rules, polices, and requirements, but not in scouting's Aims or Methods. How would change ever happen if no one tried anything new, never did things a different way? We are allowed to think for ourselves here, even encouraged to do so. Oh, program deviation, including uniform, is supported by BSA policy, there are even procedures for it /boggle. Loosen the collar a bit, it's good for you. [/quote']

 

My collar is always loose; it is against uniform policy to button the collar.

 

Your argument is that the use of the word "guide" means it is not a rule. Now your position is that "guides" are rules sometimes, but sometimes "guides" are "guides." What an interesting world you live in. But I expect nothing less than you to change your position in regards to any other "guide", because after all that's your stance: shifting sands, whatever floats your boat, man.

As I said, I'm not one to bother anyone about their uniform, you're free to be wrong, but be a big boy and know you're wrong.

This is a sensitive topic' date='and I think it's important that we respect everyone's opinion. However, I feel I need to point out two things. 1. The Uniform Guide is simply a collection of guidelines, not a code, or rule book.[/quote']

Again, regardless of where you stand on wearing the Mentor Pin anywhere or nowhere, that is a dead end argument. The use of the word "guide" does not abdicate its authority. Would you seriously argue that the Guide to Advancement, Guide to Safe Scouting, or Youth Protection Guidelines are not "rules" or "codes" and can just be ignored because the title says guide instead of commandments? Would you agree if you saw a grown man walking out of the boys' shower and he brushed you off with "'Separate accommodations' Oh you mean that guide not rule, give me a break!" No. So let's be serious.

The Guide to Awards and Insignia is the only answer to any question regarding "can I wear this..." or "where should I wear this..." Does that mean that anyone who isn't following those rules should be cashiered? No. It's very simple: You are physically able to be a special snowflake and wear the uniform any way you want, but that does not mean you are not wrong, and don't expect anyone to pat you on the head for it. This sort of word game is simply sophomoric. You wanna be wrong, go nuts, but own it.

Welllll, another atheist that knows everything and nothing about religion and respect. Deriding the ignorance of BSA while your own myopia is on full display. Sectarianism does not and has never referred to differences solely "within a single religion" and in fact its usage is almost completely in regards to inter-religious strife. You are confusing "sect" with "sectarian," two words separated by 300 years. Sectarian in this context is an adjective, it describes a kind of strife between adherents of any two faith systems without regard to their relationship (same religion or inter-religious). "Non"-sectarian means just what it sounds like: That it makes no distinction between adherents of any faith system.

Beyond that, your acerbic opinions seem to boil down to your disrespect of anyone of any faith as a ridiculous person. I hope your kid is 16 rather than 6, otherwise you've got a long, long road ahead of you being mad about purposefully joining an organization which chafes a cornerstone of your identity.