Scouter99

Sounds like you could just go up there with a shovel for all COL cares. Probably might be the best course of action given the state of things.

Now its 3 adult leaders' date=' 3 past Eagle Scouts, and one recent Eagle scout, all Eagles under 18 and one boy scout 14 years old. Would the u18 Eagles count towards the 4 scout minimum? Total 8 people same quarters. Still in violation?[/quote']

 

"Eagle Scout" is not a category of persons as relates to Youth Protection--they're either over 18 "adults" or under 18 youth.

Breaking Newsman - when not in SUV charging his phone, sits in camp chair announcing how many bars he has, sports scores, state of impending weather and major controversial jury verdicts around the campfire.

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

Is it a serious inconvenience to stagger the youth and adult participants to avoid 1-on-1 contact on the platform? No. So there's no reason not to. Too many people make it too easy to get sarcastic about 2 deep/1-on-1 by conflating them and being ridiculous, but the simple fact of the matter is that no 1-on-1 is the barrier to both abuse and false accusations, and should be taken seriously.

Instances of abuse within BSA are 70 times lower than the general public for a reason, and our rules are it.

Sounds like Johnny gets to sleep in the dirt outside.

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

As far as nitpicking the wordchoice of "day hike" rather than day trip, they're being idiots. Are all field trips in a field? Swimming is its own issue because of the Safe Swim requirements, but biking, etc that don't have their own unique rules are no different that a day hike. And if they're really pigheaded, you can point out to them that scouts commonly call bike trips "bike hikes" so a day of biking is a "day hike."

I don't know why you don't find a new troop. Even if the activity levels are comparable, there has to be a less idiotic troop nearby.

Gotta love BSA and how they are pushing ne latest fitness craze. SCOUTSTRONG anyone?

BSA first began coordinating with the Presidential fitness program in 1963, literally 50 years ago. And, yes, ScoutStrong would be a great way to help the boys improve over their 30 days.

Not every trip your troop goes on is going to meet muster for NOA, Camping MB, or OA. There just needs to be an understanding that when it comes time, you're not giving credit where it was not earned.

Scouter99 Sorry I was trying very hard not to go there

KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not

it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from

This is a common misunderstanding.

2 Deep is the rule for adult leadership on overnight camping trips.

No one-on-ne contact is the rule governing scout-adult contact.

2 Deep, therefore, does not apply to troop meetings, PLCs, day activities approved by the SM, etc. It does not mean that two adults must always be in the presence of each other on a single overnight trip, nor does it mean that two adults must accompany any breakaway group on a single overnight trip. It simply means that if the boys are staying somewhere overnight, there must be two adults with them.

No one-on-one contact applies to every scouting situation. It simply means that an adult may not be alone with a youth; you can accomplish that by having a minimum of 2 youths and 1 adult, or 2 adults and 1 youth.

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

By merit badge class, I meant a special opportunity such as a Saturday morning in a local field to discuss the requirements and do the initial measurements. I did not mean during troop meetings. Essentially a special unique opportunity.

 

Scouting is best when it offers unique opportunities.

Well, some of this is hype built on a simple formula: youth + one location + scouting = fun.

So, what's different?

 

- Youth. For the first time, co-ed BSA units (i.e. Venturers) were a part of this Jamboree. This is no big deal in the rest of the world, in fact, co-ed units from other countries have attended for decades. But, the general thinking was that Jambo was never meant for venturers, so the was a "there's nothing interesting for you here" attitude. Now for a lot of crews, there's still nothing interesting! (Lot's of venturers occupy their time organizing their own weekend summits for their area every year.) But for many, it was an opportunity to connect with the BSA at large and learn where they fit in!

 

- Location. As nice as AP Hill was, it was designed for training young men and women for the machines of war. Once every four years it got re-purposed. But then it snapped back to its original purpose once the last scouter left. This new location is literally a "home" for scouting. It's setting is intended to provide wilderness training year 'round. Thus, this jambo was more of an "open house" as opposed to "convention."

 

- Scouting. Certain aspects of scouting got short-shrift at AP Hill. Some examples were aquatics, and some Venturing-specific activities. Also, taking a play from the world jamboree's book, a Day of Service was instituted. Each day, 1/5 of the participants went to serve the West-Virginian community. Before, barring some emergency, you were stuck on base for 10 days.

 

The other gee-wiz stuff (big ticket activities, flashy shows, speeches, patch-trading), that was kinda expected. (There's always a gimmick. And long lines for it, too.) But I think the three items above represent true "tweaks" in the core formula that most of us have been talking about.

I fail to see the issue in regards to offering the MB. First of all, MB counselors apply to the council, not to your parents. The issue is whether or not he uses MB time to promote the Marines or develop a recruiting roster, which would be inappropriate.

However, what do you mean by "lead a MB class"? Troop meetings are not merit badge school. If that's your plan, that would be my issue.

I read "under the stars or in a tent" to mean not in a cabin, barracks, museum, etc. A wilderness shelter is not a "tent," would you argue that nights on a survival weekend weren't camping because the boys slept under a pile of sticks and leaves?

As JoeBob pointed out, unless the cave has electricity etc, and the only improvement are the platforms, then I would count is as camping.

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

"Though the tremendous success of Aids to Scouting led Baden-Powell down the path to youth training, he had failed to recognize what in his manual appealed so strongly to youthful readers-his detailed tips on scouting-and gone off track adopting the medieval knight as the model for his envisioned organization. Seton's Birch-Bark Roll seems to have opened Baden-Powell's eyes to the opportunity he was close to missing, though his initial response to its author gave no indication of its influence on his thinking."

He continues, praising Seton's use of woodcraft, Indian lore, and games in contrast to other programs, including BP: "Most youth organizations of the day were Iong on regimentation and short on fun, and Baden-Powell like many others had failed to see the outdoors as a training ground for life." (71)

Advancement and the Scout Oath and Law, pg 79:

"Yet the similarities were extensive. Woodcraft Indians passed a series of tests to become "first class braves." Scouts similarly graduated from "second class" to "first class." Woodcraft included mastery of knots, fire making, first aid, hiking, and reading wilderness signs; so did Scouting for Boys. Seton listed proficiency tests by which Indians earned 'honors,' 24 of which qualified a member as a 'Sachem.' In Scouting, that acquisition of 24 honor badges brought the status of 'Silver Wolf.' Seton's Woodcraft Indians took a vow and obeyed ten laws; BP's Scouts took an Oath and followed nine laws.

"New Indians received a horsehair 'scalp' signifying personal honor; it could be lost through failure in a competition or task, and later regained upon approval by the Tribe Council. The First Class badge of Scouting could similarly be lost, then regained by a good deed as certified by a Court of Honor.

"Seton told the Woodcraft Indian: "Hold your word of honour sacred." The First Law of Scouting was, "A Scout's Honour is to be trusted." Seton's Indians were to "Be helpful," while a Scout's duty was "to be useful and to help others." Seton told his Indians: "Obedience is the first duty of the Woodcrafter." Baden-Powell wrote: "A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or Scoutmaster without question." The Birch-Bark Roll instructed Woodcraft Indians: "Be joyful. Seek the joy of being alive." Similarly, according to Scouting for Boys, "A scout goes about with a smile on him and whistling. It cheers him and cheers other people, especially in times of danger, for he keeps it up all the same."

Patrols, pg 82

Before BP got hold of the Birch-Bark Roll, he was tinkering with a knighthood theme which didn't appeal to anyone. Knights are the antithesis of a patrol; they're solitary figures on personal quests.

Scott quotes Richards' book: "The Birch-Bark Roll offered 'a coherent scheme for organizing boys into manageable self-governing units. Its detailed system of outdoor training, its rules, honors, games, noncompetitive standards of excellence, and even its philosophy that (manhood, not scholarship is the first aim of education,' could not have failed to kindle Baden-Powell's imagination about the possibilities for his own Scouting aspirations. However conscientious Baden-Powell may have been about acknowledging his sources (and in fact he was not overly scrupulous about it), the extraordinary appropriateness of Seton's Indians to what Baden-Powell was hoping to achieve could not have easily been resisted. Beneath the Indian trapping, for which BP had no use, lurked an organizational model that provided solutions for almost every problem he faced and that ... could be translated into the language of Scouting without difficulty.'"

Games

You've now also introduced games as Seton/Beard's contributions to the detriment of the program, but again you have failed to consider that BP took Seton's games and put them in Scouting for Boys. If BP thought they were good enough to steal for his program, why would you think that they're bad?

On page 80: "Setonites also reproached Baden-Powell for lifting games from the novel Two Little Savages, which Seton had sent him along with the Birch-Bark Roll. Seton's "Quicksight" game helped Woodcrafter develop their powers of observation by counting the spots on a card flashed before their eyes; Scouts learned the game as 'Spottyface.' Other games seemed to have been adopted by Baden-Powell, and though some were common, others appeared to have come straight from the pages of the Birch-Bark Roll with, as Seton complained, mere changes in name."

And your issue with Seton presiding over the camp fire at Silver Bay? BP led the fire at Brownsea, assigned the patrols, made the names and flags. pg 77.

I admire, in general, your dedication to the patrol method and agree with some of your criticisms of more recent changes to the program, but it seems that you have a BP Blindness which is preventing you from acknowledging BPs own learning curve and shortcomings; has you attributing Seton's ideas to BP only where they enhance BP's stature; and (when you don't see BP's appropriations of them) ironically maligning Seton's contributions.

BP had no patrol method until he saw Seton's organizational structure and renamed it. He had no advancement structure until he saw Seton's system of merits. BP injected Seton's games into the British program, so we cannot say that Seton's continued use of his own games in the American program were a diversion from BP's methods. BP didn't even invent the term Boy Scout (p 74). What BP had was an abundance of charisma, and a popular book with an existing international audience; what he needed was a way to turn it into a program, and he got that from Seton.

"gee, homeschoolers also doing the lone scout thing.......wow, big surprise."

 

And I'd have to ask why homeschooling is a reason to be a lone scout???

 

Frankly, most homeschooled kids DO engage in social activities and such with other homeschooled kids (parents will pool together for join field trips and the like). I know of Venturing Crews established for just groups of homeschooled kids. There is no reason I know of that a homeschooled kid can't: 1) join a troop or 2) join with other homeschooled kids and form their own troop.

 

Moose.....this family has a tradition of eagles on mom's side...her dad, brothers, his cousins are all eagles......He will not break tradition, her words.

 

 

He has a receipt for summer camp.....that will be enough for most councilors....Plus he has a year of troop camp flyers....Now he didn't go on them and the one he did mom came and got him saturday morning after he hid in his tent the second it was put up.

 

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

In the case of patrols, why would West need to go over ETS to implement something ETS invented?

In the case of badges, how great was the Y's influence, really, outside of the troops chartered to local Y's, when the handbook, written by Seton, included Seton's outdoor badges?

I haven't read either of Jeal's books on BP, so I don't have much contrast, but I was also confused by your description of Scott as pro-BSA. As I read the book, I was struck by its contradictions of everything BSA tells us about itself, from calling BP a plagiarizer whose own program was doomed without stealing ideas from ETS, to boldly declaring the London fog legend to be a lie. He himself may be friendly with/to BSA, but the history hardly seems friendly to the BSA party line.

Teach something. If Scouts show up to meet with you with a completed MeritBadge.com worksheet and all you do is grade their paper, you're not a counselor, just a bureaucrat.

 

The best MBC we have is for Personal Management. He teaches the MB once a year to a small group of 5-6 Scouts. Classes are held over 4 or 5 Saturday mornings for an hour or two with later follow up to review their budgets. The classes FAR exceed what is covered by the merit badge. Pay attention here, the CLASSES far exceed what's included in the MB; earning the badge is still judged only on completion or the requirements.

 

This fellow embodies the ideal of Scouts learning from adults of good character who are experts in the field. That should be the standard for all merit badge counselors.

It must be tough telling a kid that he'll never achieve Tenderfoot, while his buddies are all getting Eagle, just because he can't do a pull-up to some adult's expectation. It would be a shame is some scouter didn't get a knot for his shirt because he missed a roundtable because he had a funeral to attend. Rules are important, but even more so are people. Once BSA works through the homosexual and atheist issues, maybe they can tackle the pull-up issue.

 

Stosh

There's a RT every month, and if a kid can't do a pullup by the age of 16, then there's something so wrong with him that he qualifies for an exception due to disability. I don't think anyone here is talking about never letting a kid advance over pull-ups, and if someone ran into that, there are lots of troops. We all squawk and point to the GtA's admonishment that no one may change advancement when some hardnose is making things harder, but it means easier, too.

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I personally plan to cover the personality issues; the official London fog history smells funny to anyone that gives it a second thought, and I think if we're going to do a history MB then there it is warts and all.

My really big concern is that one of them starts Googling BP and comes across the crap about him being gay and then I'm stuck answering questions about that.

Ehhhhh, I was really enticed, but I didn't feel like when he got down to it that he really demonstrated his point, just talked about it. His only well-examined examples of youth initiatives (sign language, for example) don't support his thesis (that youth had a firm hand in shaping the movement) because they show the exact opposite in their fizzling-out.

I think he also overstates the impact that world jambos had on the American movement. The immediate thought is that only a tiny fraction of youth attended, and when he gets around to that point he simply dismisses it rather than addressing it.

So we can all agree that there is no bright line rule for over vs. under the collar neckerchiefs' date=' and it’s up to the Unit to decide? When I show up for my next Pack meeting wearing my necker OVER the collar, I’ll brace for comments, confident that I can cite to the appropriate uniform rule. I expect my cubs to wear neckers as part of their class A , so I wear my necker too.[/color']

Over vs under is a unit decision. If your unit wears under, then you wear under. If your unit wears over, then you wear over.