Scouter99

Thanks for the replies. I recently had a parent who was willing to help drive a group of boys to summer camp (> 5hrs away). When I started asking about her insurance limits, etc... She said well maybe I won't. I understand that the BSA is trying to Cover their butt or covers yours but as complicated as everything else is in life all this training/paperwork just turns people off, myself included.

Then she probably doesn't have insurance and she should be in jail.

I have to agree, Twocubdad. I foresee the form becoming more useful to councils in compiling a squeaky wheel list than a bad counselors list.

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

So here is the response from national...Bill Evans was the fellows name.....A very prompt response, more than a little surprised and pleased.

 

"Bob, some awards intentionally do say under the auspices of the BSA while some do not. Hiking, Aquatics, and Riding say under the auspices. For those, that under the auspices also applies to the devices. "

HAHAHAHA!!!! I emailed the Advancement Team, too, and they forwarded it to Evans (they said NOA wasn't Adv Team's deal) and he told me the same thing, but I didn't figure there was any way to post his reply without being accused of putting words in his mouth.

I asked two questions, unfortunately he only answered the second question:

"1. What exactly does "under the auspices of the BSA" mean?

Some people are arguing that it means anything a scout does in the 5 areas, say, if he bikes 5 miles to school, then there's 5 miles toward riding. Some are arguing that it means anything he does in the 5 areas as long as he is consciously doing it to earn the award, say, he bikes 5 miles because he wants 5 miles toward the award, then his intent alone makes it "under the auspices." Others argue that it means only activity in the 5 areas done within the patrol, troop, district, council, OA, or national program.

Some have pointed to your answer in this Scouting Magazine blog and say that "under the auspices" and "at designated scouting activities" are one-in-the-same and interchangeable across badges/awards, but others say that answer only applies to the Camping MB.

2. While the camping, hiking, riding, and aquatics badges all contain the caveat "under the auspices" their gold and silver devices do not, they simply say a gold/silver device "may be earned for each additional X nights/miles/hours of camping/riding/aquatics."

This begs the question as to whether these additional nights/miles/hours must also be within Scouting activities, or from any individual pursuit. The proponents of the second position that metrics for devices may be outside of Scouting say that it is so because that is just how it is written, and we may not add to the requirement."

His answer:

"[scouter99], for those awards that say under the auspices, that also applies to their devices."

Also surprised at the quick reply given it's national and I don't suppose they have time to answer every silly email that comes through, especially during Jambo week.

We have some that no one has looked at in 10 yrs; it's my experience/opinion that they're unnecessary. They could be useful in some instances, but when they're nothing but a dust collector in between those instances, they don't carry any weight when you might need to dust them off.

Oh please! If BeAScout is your example of BSA's crackerjack marketing efforts, then any others will be a waste of time and money, too.

 

We were one of the first units in the area to configure BeAScout for our troop. In the years since, it has generated precisely TWO leads. But in order to pursue them, I have to check the site manually every day? That's an effective use of my time? We get more inquiries off a very simple district web site which shows a table listing troops, meeting dates and places and my email and phone number. Gee whiz, maybe if they had thought to add a function which would notify unit leaders by email when they get a hit, they could respond. Nah, that makes too much sense.

I took you at your word that there's no email notification and made myself a right jackass on your account by mentioning the flaw in conversation with a council bigwig the other day, apparently BAS does send an email notification. So, I put in a fake lead on BAS to see for myself, and within seconds myself, the SM, and CoR all got an email.

Maybe you didn't configure your pin properly.

Like I originally said, any national-level marketing campaign depends on the 1,000,000 volunteers knowing what they're doing. An ad campaign has to be actionable, and BAS is the action end. BAS is a good start, and any national or council marketing campaign will point to BAS because it's the only comprehensive list of units. If a unit's pin is out of date, that's the unit's fault. If units aren't aware of BAS, that's the fault of their district/council volunteers and professionals.

When I went to the 1960 Jamboree' date=' the info we got for our council, Arrowhead Area in San Bernardino County, was $400 plus approximately $50 for uniforming, plus personal spending money and gear beyond what might have. My parents told me; "We will buy the uniforms". Somehow I was able to go; and they did only buy the uniforms, plus take me to the pre jamboree camp at George AFB and to and from the train in San Berdo. What is that in today's money? Who cares. It was one of the highlights of my youth, period.[/quote']

 

I've used ads from old Boys' Life magazines to run the numbers for uniform cost a few times; the uniform has basically stayed right on the nose with CPI inflation.

In 1960, a complete basic uniform cost a total of $12.30 (including optional gaiters). That's ~95 2012 dollars, which is just about what you'd spend on a new uniform today. If your parents spent a whole $50, then you should have got 5 uniforms.

 

You might have got 4 uniforms and a pair of official buster browns, or 4 uniforms and some combination of the fancy leather belt instead of the web one, or the nice metal neckerchief slide instead of the 15-cent braided one, or a couple pairs of the nice hiking socks. If you didn't get 4 or 5 uniforms, call your parents and tell them the jig is up and you want $100 for every uniform you didn't get in 1960, haha

(1960 uniform prices: http://boyslife.org/wayback/#issue=w5LFTj36kJ8C&pg=72 inflation calculator: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/)

 

I can't imagine anyone spending $500 on uniforms for jamboree, but a middle class family had a lot more disposable income in 1960 than it has today; even the lawyers and doctors that populate our troop balked at the 2010 pronouncement of complete uniforms all week in 2010.

Copyright is a big deal and violating that not only asks for legal remedies, it is a clear violation of the Scout Law, at least one of them, and the Oath.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with creating a 'lending library' for the troop to use. Old copies of the pamphlets can be donated by boys once they're finished with the merit badges or they can be purchased directly by the troop. OR multiple boys who intend to work on the same badge can share the cost and purchase a single shared copy.

 

But Copyright does prohibit MAKING COPIES, no matter what form they take, even if not for profit.

 

Krampus, telling someone about a criminal activity is not a crime in itself, even if the reader decides to engage in the criminal activity as a result. However, the better action would be to inform those who are breaking the law that they should stop, BEFORE they receive that stiff note from an attorney.

Unauthorized use of BSA material, logos, etc can be reported at http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand/Report%20Unauthorized%20Use.aspx

Yes, all children with gay parents will be stigmatized regardless of BSA's policy.

No justice no peace.

 

Interesting...

 

It is pretty divided along racial lines.....

 

Black Zimmerman should have been found guilty.

White Zimmerman was justified.

 

Both of them were wrong......and trayvon is dead.....

 

Stand your ground laws gives punks the reason to pull their guns and shoot folks because they feel threatened,.

Everyone watching has been told that this is white vs black regardless/in spite of any likely alternative, so of course (many) white people are on the defensive and back Zimmerman, and (many) black people are offended and back Martin.

The national Advancement Team has defined "at designated Scouting activities or events" from Camping MB as "experiences[that] are held under the auspices of some level of the BSA, and that “Scouting†happens on them." (bold theirs, not mine).

 

So, anyone that's not already trying to fudge things can reasonably deduce that the phrases are interchangeable.

 

The Advancement team goes on to specifically note that family outings and individual pursuits are not a "scouting activity" and therefore are not "under the auspices": they say, "For example, an individual family or a couple of Scouts and their parents heading off into the woods doesn’t count."

 

From "Ask the Expert"

Science is the collection of evidence, observations, experiments, and testing your ideas to see if they prove out under stress.

 

Religion is just a story someone wrote.

 

There is no comparison. One is a fiction book. The other is the real world.

 

I am happy that I do not believe anything that is in the Bible. All of the stories in the bible are just recycled stories with different names and slight twists from earlier cultures. Very little of the Bible to me is good advice or comforting. I find most of it brutal, horrific, and scary.

 

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, but two thousand years prior was so pissed off that he nuked two cities and the surrounding areas because his creation had run amok. This speaks to an angry, flawed God with a temper who apparently cannot control man or create beings he is satisfied with. I can't remember if this is before or after this apparently non-innovative and highly flawed super being flooded the world to rid it of sin but somehow stupidly could not see that the people he saved would breed out randomly and result in there being sin again.

 

The entire bible makes no sense. I read it to my kids to see if they were interested. We got through two books, and they were sitting there mouths open. "Poeple believe this nonsense?" I told them, "People do not read this nonsense. People say they read it, but really they only listen to surgically plucked phrases and quotes while never actually reading it."

 

I've read the entire book cover to cover - unlike any other Christian I am aware of. Reading it as if reading a novel left me with my eyes bugging out at the goofy things I was reading and horrible advice I received.

 

It's not extremism on both sides. Only religion is extreme. The rejection of it is simply to not believe it. It isn't anything. It's just a state of not purchasing the idea of a God. You are not an extremist if you don't watch TV. You are simply choosing to not watch it. Perhaps extremism on the other side would be calling for burning of churches and the banning of religion. Atheists don't really do that. We mostly ignore it and quietly tolerate religious behaviors around us without outing ourselves for fear of being judged and preached at by confused believers.

 

The science of God is simple. People saw scary things, attributed thunder, lightning, comets, etc to Gods. Then a smart guy in the tribe saw opportunity and became the "priest" as a way of taking power without being chosen. If the chief was uncooperative, the medicine man said "The Gods have spoken. He is evil!" It's still done today by people claiming that God wants this and that when really it is just them who wants it.

 

I was raised with religion. I am happier and my children are happier in a home with no ghosts, no alien abductions, no bigfoot, no lochness monster, and no God.

 

This chart shows that the US is alone except for the third world in its religious fervor:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallup_Religiosity_Index_2009.png

 

Here's a study showing that as a nation's average IQ goes up, the tendency toward atheism in the population also increases:

 

http://davesource.com/Fringe/Fringe/Religion/Average-intelligence-predicts-atheism-rates-across-137-nations-Lynn-et-al.pdf

 

The chart from that study:

 

http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

 

There are well-studied links between growing up conservative and growing up with lower intelligence and fewer resources:

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/13/1131220/-Religious-and-Conservative-people-have-lower-IQs-than-their-counterparts

 

I believe religion is something that humans still feel they need, but eventually will just outgrow. No earth-bound religion will survive the arrival of a superior alien species or man's spreading out through space to other worlds. Once all of the events in the bible are easily explained with technology we possess ourselves, it's no longer going to interest anyone. It's all just a matter of time.

The national Advancement Team has defined "at designated Scouting activities or events" from Camping MB as "experiences[that] are held under the auspices of some level of the BSA, and that “Scouting†happens on them." (bold theirs, not mine).

So, anyone that's not already trying to fudge things can reasonably deduce that the phrases are interchangeable.

The Advancement team goes on to specifically note that family outings and individual pursuits are not a "scouting activity" and therefore are not "under the auspices": they say, "For example, an individual family or a couple of Scouts and their parents heading off into the woods doesn’t count."

From "Ask the Expert"

Individual achievement working towards a goal with a Scout Master approval?

 

I am going to say no out of the blocks.......But a lad with a very compelling argument or reason why might sway my decision....As SM I would turn it around on the lad....so you want to earn the riding award.....why don't you organize a Patrol ride to bob's park and back.....or why not organize a ride to Eagle districts camporee......Promote riding in the patrol and troop......

 

Isn't that the point of the award?????

 

Very Clearly Patrol, Troop, OA, District, Council and National BSA events are an absolute yes. BSA camp staff, life guard, ect yes.

 

Earning a hiking, backpacking or cycling merit badge with your patrol mate yes........

 

Riding back and forth to school on your bike no.......Hanging at the swimming pool with your buddies no......water skiing or canoing with your family no.

So back to my log book idea.....

keep in mind that I'm a cub leader, and as a youth wasn't very active as a scout..... and that was a long time ago anyway so I have little memory of requirements....

It seems that there are a lot of requirements for time and distance for the various merit badges and awards.

 

I can imagine boys that get started in scouting would have absolutely no idea about any of this...... but they might end up doing quite a lot of something that could apply to a merit badge or award during their first year or so, but have no idea to keep track of it....

So it seems to me again that encouraging a log book from the start might be a good idea...

logging everything that a boy does that might be "scouting" related

 

canoeing outings, miles paddled, Kayaking outings, miles paddled, bike trips, miles biked, number of camping trips, nights camped, numbers of hikes, miles hiked, etc.....

.... and it seems that under each of these categories to be tracked, he would need to record "auspices" or let's call it "free time"

 

For a very active boy in a very active family, or a very active troop, it could be hard or impossible to go back and remember all of these things once he decides to go for a certain badge or award.......

 

Do any boys do this?

Do any of you leaders encourage such tracking?

Troop webhost records miles hiked, nights camped, service hours.....and I recently started tracking hours of water activity......But I use event notes for that....It all comes out on the scout history report.

Scouting Mag's blog on the release: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/07/11/five-big-takeaways-from-todays-release-of-the-2013-guide-to-advancement/

I wish I got a nickel for every numbskull question that gets asked in the comments section of Bryan's blog. Gee, folks, maybe the answer to your advancement question in the blog about the advancement guide can be found in Guide to Advancement.

In reading various recent historical efforts on Scouting, and going back and reading older ones, it is apparent that there is little similarity between today's professional and the ones that were working prior to 1950 or so. Story after story about how they were paid next to nothing, ran camps all summer, went without pay at times, had huge issues with which to deal that today we would simply not see; yet they persevered and kept the basics in focus most of the time. While I would not like to see today's pro's have to live with some of those conditions, I would like to see more of them allowed to focus more on the youth than numbers of any kind. And I really would like to see National make some serious adjustments to the inequities in pay between the men that still try to do the job at the lowest levels, and the few that have somehow made it near the top. Like in all corporations almost, the highest few could lose about half their salaries and still be well paid; and that money could be used to keep people at the lower levels long enough to build more consistency within councils. Better yet, would love to see ALL high level pro's, including council top men, spend at least a month working directly with the real units, including on staff at summer camp and day camp for at least a couple of days straight, doing the job of counselor or even working in the kitchen or maintenance. We might actually see a bit more recognition of the realities of the challenges we face.

 

Another great change, at least for me, would be an actual National policy that would require each council board, all the way up to the National level, to have about one quarter of the people on it be involved in units directly in some capacity. That would mean either using COR's on local level as active members of the board, not just paper signatures, or pulling people from unit committees or districts. Of course, that also would require the COR to actually know what his job really is. One can dream I suppose. But I am not holding my breath.

There's no broad stroke to paint the past with; it doesn't serve to over-romanticize.

Skeptic and TJ and packsaddle all have good points. Discussion and disagreement is good, but we also have to agree to disagree and move on.

 

I went and looked at the onmyhonor website as they had a "major" announcement today. Well, the announcement was a bust but I did look at their forums. Besides arguing over dumb stuff like what to call the equivalent to Eagle, there is a thread on membership requirements. Turns out I wouldn't be allowed to be a scoutmaster there, even though they do want to make it non-denominational. I guess we have different definitions. But I did notice an argument as to who would be allowed. One guy said Jews and Christians should be allowed but not Muslims or Buddhists. That started a fight. They've just shifted the line but they sound just the same. The point being, there will always be people that disagree and we should learn to be civil. We're all volunteers and we're all trying.

I am focused on the boys when on the ground. The only time this issue has come up is when someone thinks we need a unit policy for dealing with when one Scout doesn't want to tent with a gay Scout. I simply asked why we needed something specific to gays - every campout there can be a scramble to avoid tenting with any particular Scout for a variety of reasons.

 

I have kept my actions at the National and District level only so fa.

 

Barry - The BSA stigmatized themselves through their actions, communications and lack of communications through the years. We as an organization are obviously still learning how to handle PR in the modern, connected world.

Scouter99 - he wants a policy for allowing kids to refuse to tent with the gay kid.

I am focused on the boys when on the ground. The only time this issue has come up is when someone thinks we need a unit policy for dealing with when one Scout doesn't want to tent with a gay Scout. I simply asked why we needed something specific to gays - every campout there can be a scramble to avoid tenting with any particular Scout for a variety of reasons.

 

I have kept my actions at the National and District level only so fa.

 

Barry - The BSA stigmatized themselves through their actions, communications and lack of communications through the years. We as an organization are obviously still learning how to handle PR in the modern, connected world.

Since when does being Venturing age, rather than being a Venturer, qualify a Boy Scout to participate in activities restricted to Venturers?

As to the "rules" about duty to God and their enforcement, I think we need to look no further than the letter of the council Scout Executive in South Carolina who resigned over the gay issue. His letter reveals that his Christian beliefs probably drove many of his decisions over the years he was a professional. He would be the type of guy who would find it necessary to kick out Scouts of uncertain beliefs.

On the one hand: Of course it's a huge hole in the museum's mission to exclude GB. On the other; how many people go to the museum? I'm keenly interested in BSA's history, and I have no intentions to go to the trouble or expense within the next 5 years, maybe ever. How many fewer youth members will go?

BSA has never leveled on the facts of their history, from Seton's originating the patrol method and BP's plagiarizing it, to the Scout in the Fog myth. So, it's no big surprise that GB got himself written out of history by trying to stand opposed to the march of time.

The recourse is obvious: Offer the Scouting Heritage MB often, and include Greenbar in your Req 3 discussion on the evolution of Scouting's programs. I already use the MB to emphasize Seton and Beard over BP and Boyce.

And, add non-BSA histories like Men of Schiff and The Scouting Party to your troop library.