Vicki

GW, I'd like to have a cup of coffee with you sometime - yep, we're all goofy and we're all on the spectrum of humanity somewhere. I don't like to shop, love to watch football, and a weekend spent backpacking is a small slice of heaven. My spouse hates hiking, loves to watch football, loves to shop, and is, to my mind, not overly sensitive. Yippee - I'm not all that sensitive myself:

I see a campfire over across the valley - I think I'll go see if the conversation happening over there is a little bit less offensive than the one here. This one is so offensive on so many levels, I just don't even know where to begin... I call it the Nixon conundrum - either he was lying and shouldn't be president, or he was too stupid to be president. Same resolution either way. (And don't make assumptions about my political leanings based on that statement - I feel the same way about Clinton) Either Pappy is trolling or he's too over the top to be given credence. Same resolution either way. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Ah, LDS. That's a whole different ball game, CRW. Any thoughts I have would be based on the overall BSA program, not the LDS BSA program. LDS has added a different layer of structure - knowing you are LDS explains why you expect support from your CO, why leadership may be an issue (no judgement there, you alluded to it in your post, too), and why your CO is so "in control." That's a very important detail. Sounds to me like you're not going to lose your pack, you're just part of an organizational shuffle. As someone else said, I'd just call your next level up (or whoever in the church is responsible for facilities) and ask. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Thanks, Pack. Just an observation CRW, having re-read your e-mails, it sounds like you might be expecting help finding leader material from your CO? Other services and/or guidance from your CO other than a place to meet? From what I've gathered (and my own experience) it's a rare CO that provides any service other than the basic meeting place - and if there's an availability conflict, their own program will beat the scouts' program hands down. I know, we know the scouts are their program too, but that's not how they think. The worst part is when the CO decides there's a space conflict and doesn't even let you know there's a problem (personal experience talkin' on that one). I'll second the one-on-one approach to finding volunteers. Mass appeals makes it too easy to think that someone else is going to step up and handle it. V(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Scoutnut, reading CRW's e-mail, I'm not sure where you picked up the idea that the prospective school is associated with the current CO? All I see is "nearby school"? Vicki

Beav, it's VERY scary. To me, it's symptomatic of an effort to standardize a system that needs to be as flexible as possible to accommodate different learning styles, maturation rates, and skill set differentials. Losing our boys just because they need gym class during the day is a real problem (simple example, there's more to it than that). Girls can benefit from the activity, but it's critical for boys (based on anecdotal, not empirical, evidence). Vicki (who just wants the human race to end in a tie)

(sigh) never mind Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

>Has to be close to a record for going off topic. I'm fairly sure that neither scripture nor Shakespeare addressed motorcycles> Have we forgotten Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance so quickly? Vicki

Yep, I don't think the Roman emperor Constantine (who authorized Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and set the ball rolling) would have called himself Catholic. Vicki

Serious veering off thread alert! Fact is, FireKat, there were some guys that also found the word offensive, couple of others who fell into the "well, if it bothered you, then we shouldn't have used it", and the rest didn't find it offensive. Epithets generally only truly bother the class of people to which they are applied (notice I didn't say specific people, I said class). That's why it's important to develop sensitivies to such things without going totally pc. Acco, I think you were wrong on this one, but it isn't a ditch I'm willing to die in. Vicki

John, until they get to the point where it's a fill-in Acrobat form (not wedded to Acrobat but it's the only one I know out there in widespread use - any database GUI will do) I'm afraid all we're doing is replacing a frontoffice nightmare with a backoffice nightmare. In the former case, at least we are facing a person and can help fix the problem. In the latter case, we'd end up with a bureaucrat who "never got" our e-mail with its attachment. But that is where the 21st century is heading. Heck, the IRS can do it! Vicki (edited for typo)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I'm late to the party here, but just to let you know, FireKat, as one XX chromosome carrier to another, I too cringed at the word. I guess I'm a little bit chagrined that folks actually thought it was OK:

Let's think about what the Council does, then think how it would work it the proposed scenario. Advancement reports - can be submitted online Clothing - can be purchased online, however fitting it is really convenient (is that just for us female types? I know men have it a lot easier for civvie shirts and pants) Tour permits - no reason those can't be online Awards - hmmm, it's really nice to be able to go pick those up when Johnnie earns Star just before the COH but after you've received your online order. Could award pin until you get the patch though and stockpile pins. Camping transactions - sometimes those get complicated (for what reason, I can't fathom, but they do) I know I've missed something, and I sure would miss the relationships I've developed with a couple of the scout shop ladies, but I think it's possible. Camp properties - now THAT's a tough one. Kind of like Illinois public schools - if you go to certain Chicago suburb districts, you're golden, because property taxes stay within the district. But it sure gets spotty elsewhere and those rich districts aren't about to share their properties. But what if a geographical priority camping list was developed? Those within certain geographical lines (think topo map lines) get priority for reservations? That is in place to some extent in our council - we have a gem that's really easy for the southern folks to get to but it's small. They get priority. FOS would have to be tweaked a bit, but that's marketing. Those folks are (supposedly) paid to be flexible and creative. Not to mention the turf wars as professionals lose their jobs. As usual, it would appear the bureaucracy may be the main impediment. Some form of National would have to exist, but it could be greatly reduced (oops, there goes that overhead again). Blue sky throwin' it out there, Vicki (edited typo) (This message has been edited by Vicki)

So, just sticking my toes in the water here - I agree with GW on one point - you guys haven't seen sniping! Although I'll immediately qualify that by saying some of the attacks on Pappy and by Pappy did sink to that level. Sharing some IMO-type observations here - the Merlyn/Ed stuff is just tedious. Bob White skirted the edge in the thread (I think) Cheffy started when he heavily implied that those who disagreed with his interpretation of YP either hadn't taken it, hadn't taken it from a qualified instructor, or were just stupid. Couple of other places have been more than a little reminiscent of the old Bob. But, in the main, tolerable for the information he's able to share if you get past the patronizing tone. Everybody already knows where I think GW crossed the line:

Well, the COs of both Older (OS) and Younger Son (YS) provide adequate meeting space - YS CO provides a gym which is nice. OS CO provides a room belonging to the preschool BUT also provides storage space and an enclosed garage for our trailer (VERY nice). OS CO (MO Synod Lutheran Church) has the troop in their budget for about $500/year - also nice. YS CO (public school PTO) does not. OS troop also has two parents who work for corporations that do matching grants - that's worth about $5000/year. They do some fundraising through participating in food events with a couple of churches. YS troop lives hand to mouth - also does a couple of fundraisers. Neither unit sells popcorn. That said, OS troop is, unfortunately, dwindling in membership - two reasons, IMO - 1) too dependent on a pack from a Lutheran school that now has declining enrollment (and troop involvement w/that pack has declined) and 2) boring program. YS troop is stable, if not growing - two reasons, again IMO - 2) has two public school packs to draw from and actively courts them and 2) exciting program, doing different things every year. That's my story, Vicki

Glad to see you couldn't stand to actually go. I've enjoyed what you write when it isn't in the nature of an attack. Stones? Nah, just an observation on the nature of civil discourse. Vicki

BW wrote, "To become emotionally attached to them is silly" In principle I can see your point, being one of those folks who seems to be getting involved in council-type activities (NYLT, WB staff). But, still being pretty close to the district level in terms of my troop involvement (two districts, actually, as #1 and #2 son are in two troops) I can tell you that there is a very different "feel" to districts. Not to mention that the district level is where the action happens in terms of camporees, adult leader training (not including WB, obviously), etc. So I would hope that people would get emotionally involved with their district. Without program and passion at troop and district level, that council-level stuff is just so much bureaucracy, there to feed off of itself. That said, no, you really don't get to vote which district you're going to be in, any more than you get to vote which school district you're going to be in - other than trying to influence the situation one way or the other. Vicki

GW wrote "Thank you but isn't it considered rude to tell someone else that they are being rude." Hmmm, I don't think so. Not when it's so consistent and escalating to such an extent that it's obviously intentional and directed to the point where a normally polite person such as myself gets tired of trying to get past it. You crossed a line. Vicki

" I hope it's in good fun, and isn't really implyin' that folks who do legal work or offer that kind of insight should be devalued or dismissed, eh?" Why not? GW, have to admit - you have, in two words, been ruder than any other poster I've read on scouter.com. Congratulations. Vicki

Eamonn, I absolutely appreciate your point. The thin line between an individual's right to privacy and the group's protection is the one we're walking here. Just for the record, I am a big advocate for privacy. But, for example, I'll use two extreme cases I've dealt with - one in NYLT when the parents took their scout off his meds for the summer, the scout started acting oddly (as in menacing other scouts with large sticks and breaking things), it was only because I was able to read through the whiteout on the med form and recognized the drug that I was able to deal with the problem effectively. The other one was diagnosed bi-polar (or schizophrenic, doc hadn't decided yet, don't ask me) - and had changed his med. Med reacted adversely and scout was defiant and oppositional way past his ordinary weirdness or the safety of the group. Called the parent but still had to deal with the scout until parent got there. Parent had not said a word about even the original condition, much less a med change. Significant issues that had to be dealt with on the spot. So, group safety outweighs right to privacy in the case of medical care, IMO. Was I uncomfortable with the responsibility I was handed. YES! Do I, in all humility, think I was a better choice that the other folks available? Well, yes. Did I talk to anyone but the SM? Absolutely NOT! Did we talk to the parents involved about the need to let us know what's going on? YES! The latter scout, being a member of the troop, was told he could no longer come on campouts without a custodial adult. Vicki

What happens in our council (and the out of council camps we've attended) is that the troop has an assigned med-person. That person has a signed waiver from the parent (yes, I understand the legal limitations of waives but they are a prima facie defense) that includes the schedule for meds, and the med in the original bottle. When I serve as the med-person, I keep a log of which scout took which med when. Knowing the scouts, I pretty much know which ones can be trusted and which ones have to be hounded, but all meds are with me. The camp situation, sharing tents, living out of packs, etc., is just too different from the regular home schedule and some of these guys need their med when they need it. Sometimes the reason they're taking it is because they have serious issues with keeping track of things. I also make a point of researching any drug with which I'm unfamiliar. Some of these schedule III drugs are pretty scarey stuff that I wouldn't want anyone to accidentally gain access to. Vicki

Given the words "professional or official capacity" in the header, and the conflict then introduced by "Any person associated with or employed by any private organization responsible for the care, custody or control of children;" in the body of the text, I think I'd make a call to the reporting agency and ask if I was a mandatory reporter if I thought it was a reportable situation. Get the name of the person who answers the question. Vicki

and sometimes, It's Me, I feel like a plant underneath a bird... But that would be getting way too close to identifying recta - which leads to methane, which leads to fire and burning books and Blazing Saddles! Wheee.... Vicki

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Personally, I like sweaters with buttons at the neck because I have a big head (No comments, please! Feel free to snicker at will: