Cleveland Rocks

In many areas, their safety guidelines are similar to what we in the BSA have.  But there are some notable differences.

One of those areas--and in talking to some GS leaders, this seems to trip them up a lot--is the minimum number of volunteers needed for activities.

The ratio varies depending on program level, but it requires a minimum of two unrelated volunteers (note not "adults", but registered volunteers) up to a certain number of Scouts. For Daisies, it's up to 12 Daisies for Troop meetings, and up to 6 Daisies for outings, activities, travel and camping. For Ambassadors, the ratio is higher--up to 30 Ambassadors for Troop Meetings and 24 for outings.  Then you need additional volunteers when you have more girls than the minimum.

So, for example, if you were doing an outing with, let's say a troop with 27 Juniors, their minimum volunteer levels would require at least 4 volunteers on the outing.

As far as prohibited activities, I will say that they do not go to the level that we in the BSA do, but most of the obvious things that you might expect an organization to prohibit, they do, like bungee jumping, hang gliding, parasailing, skydiving, hunting, and outdoor trampolines. The GSUSA, like the BSA, prohibits paintball activities where you are shooting at other people.

The GSUSA requires a registered first-aider on all outings. This must be a person who has taken the Red Cross First Aid course. They also require what they call an advanced first-aider, meaning they've taken WFA, if you're further than 30 minutes away from EMS care reaching you.

As for specific activities, the GSUSA has a chart like the BSA does listing which program levels can do what. For the most part, girls in all program levels can do all activities but there are exceptions, mostly with Daisies and Brownies.

Daisies and Brownies cannot do backpacking (different from just general hiking).

Daisies cannot do ziplining, except for playground ziplines. Daisies and Brownies cannot do canopy tours.

Daisies and Brownies cannot do recreational tree climbing (using ropes, harnesses and saddles to climb trees).

Daisies and Brownies cannot do go-karts. Juniors can't operate self-driving go-karts, but they could be a passenger in a 2-person kart driven by an older person.

Daisies can only do horseback riding on ponies or hand-led horseback walks.

Daisies cannot do kayaking and can only do rowboats if they're in the boat with an adult.

Daisies and Brownies cannot do stand up paddleboarding or whitewater rafting (Brownies and Juniors technically can do rafting, but only on lower-rated rapids)

Girls must be at least 12 to participate in gun shooting sports, 14 for pistols.

Contrary to popular belief, Girl Scouts in all levels can camp (there are many people who erroneously say that Daisies cannot camp. They can, although there are some limitations). The GSUSA requires that any troop that camps has at least one person at the campout who has taken a council-level training course on camping, similar to the BSA's BALOO training requirement for Pack campouts.

For many activities, council approval is required before the troop or individuals can participate. One major difference with Girl Scout Troops from how we do it in the BSA, is that unlike in the BSA, where troops are chartered to a Chartered Organization, and that CO "owns" the unit, all Girl Scout Troops are owned by the local council. They have direct control over the troops, and it is not unheard of for unit leaders to be dismissed, and troops disbanded, for breaking their rules.

The GSUSA's version of the Guide to Safe Scouting, what they call "Safety Activity Checkpoints", is nearly twice as long as our Guide to Safe Scouting.

17 hours ago, Jackdaws said:

On a side note,  why does the BSA not offer a flag you can put out front of your home?  I would love to get one to fly with my American flag but I tried searching for something and come up with nothing.  

WOSM sells flags with the World Crest that are available for purchase:

https://www.worldscoutshops.com/essentials/scouting-flags

The BSA used to sell "generic" flags that you could buy to fly at home, but I haven't seen them in years.

There are BSA flags available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/UDSNIS-America-Scouting-Outdoor-Decorative/dp/B07DC3H34M

https://www.amazon.com/UNSTARFLAG-American-Veterans-Scouts-America/dp/B07NX67S7D

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CW2K6QD/ref=psdc_553792_t2_B07NX67S7D

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DCRP9QM/ref=psdc_553792_t3_B07NX67S7D

https://www.amazon.com/YERZ-Scouts-America-Colorful-Outdoor/dp/B07T9J63RL

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQPKGPJ

9 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Before back in day, some hiked. 

Below two Venezuelan Boy Scouts , Rafael Petit , left, and Juan Carmona, right, sit on the steps of the Capitol Build and examine their boots after hiking 25 miles a day for over two years to attend the Boy Scout Jamboree in Washington, D.C.

They started from Caracas on January 11, 1935 and hiked through Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico, then through the southern US all the way to  Washington where they arrived June 16, 1937, after more than 10,000 miles.

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2016871844/

 

That's interesting, the version of that story I had always been told was that they hiked in 1935 to the Jamboree, only to arrive in DC and find out that it had been cancelled due to a polio epidemic, and that they went back and returned two years later for the rescheduled Jamboree in 1937.

That's also the version I see posted on-line in many places. It's also the version of the story the BSA has posted on their Facebook page.

Still a great story.

I think part of the problem was that while there were weather delays that of course cascaded across the country as happens with a hub system, there was also the problem that many contingents were delivered to the airport many, many hours before their scheduled flight, sometimes, based on comments posted on-line, 8, 10, or more hours in advance. I saw one contingent was delivered to the airport in the early morning hours, for a flight that was not scheduled to depart until 7:00 p.m. that evening. No airport is equipped to handle that many people arriving that early. You can't check bags for a flight more than 4 hours in advance (at least that's what contingents were reporting online was what they were told at CLT). If you can't check-in yet, you can't get a boarding pass. And no boarding pass, no going through security, which means you don't have access to the food court areas. That led many to get stuck outside, because the ticket counter areas was at capacity, since they were way early and couldn't go through security to get to the more spacious gate areas.

It wasn't necessarily that there were delays (there were), it was also that there were departing passengers at the airport waaaaaay early.

32 minutes ago, Saltface said:

What does that mean?

There are some councils that have taken an adversarial approach to the BSA in their area since the announcement of the BSA admitting girls into the Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA programs.

There have been many examples of directives given by some (not all) Girl Scout councils around the country as to what their troops can/can't do with respect to BSA membership and activities. One of those that was making the rounds during cookie booth season earlier this year was that there councils who had put out notice to their troops that they should "report", supposedly to the service unit director, or something like that, if they were approached at a booth by a BSA member. It was pretty much met with ridicule at the time. I'm not sure what, exactly, they were supposed to report, although many took it to believe that it was to report if the Boy Scouts were doing a fundraising booth at the same location as their cookie booth, which is pretty difficult to do, considering our popcorn sales are in the fall and their cookie booths are in late winter/early spring. I'm trying to find the posts on Facebook from when that all happened, but haven't found them yet.

Other councils have stated they do not want their members present at activities when BSA members are also present. An excerpt from the directives given by one GSUSA council:

"Do not participate in, allow, or promote any co-sponsored or co-branded events or programs that use either Girl Scouts’ name, logo, colors, or likenesses together with Boy Scouts. This includes long-standing events like Scouting for Food and Pine Car Derbies.
"Do not participate in joint flag ceremonies."

Then, of course, there's the kerfuffle from earlier this year at Legoland in Florida where, after hearing that BSA members would also be invited to Scout Day there (the nerve of Legoland to do something like that!), the local GSUSA council withdrew their sponsorship of the event, stating it was no longer an official Girl Scouts event (because Legoland would not acquiesce to their request to dis-invite the BSA members) and that while their girls could still go to Legoland that day, they should not wear their uniforms or activity shirts to the event, or otherwise make it evident that they were Girl Scouts.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

There's no bad blood between my troop and any GS/USA troop. I formed a crew because two troops wanted to go to Seabase together. Every year, including this one, GS/USA troops join my district in decorating veteran's graves.

Yes, I know this is a "big ask" ... to the point of being fanciful. But, almost half of our fellow youth citizens missed out on the opportunity that WSJ's fellowship and foibles provide. And that's a shame.

To be clear, any "bad blood" is not with individual units, but with the GSUSA national leadership and (some) council leadership of the GSUSA. It's GSUSA councils that are telling their units to "turn in" any BSA members they see at their cookie booths. It was the GSUSA council in central Florida that told their membership to not wear their uniforms to Scout Day at Legoland earlier this year because (gasp!) Boy Scouts would also be present. It's GSUSA councils who have put out the memos to their troops not to participate in parades when BSA units will be present.

And at our Memorial Day grave decoration ceremony this year at our local National Cemetery, the lack of Girl Scouts at the event was quite noticeable. The organizers said that they got very few responses from troops this year, despite being invited along with all other Scout units the same as they do every year.

My point is that if the BSA extended an invitation to GSUSA to participate in the World Scout Jamboree, I think we all know what GSUSA's response would have been.

7 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

GSUSA is a member of the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, they are not a member of the World Organization of the Scout Movement. 

No, but they could have been invited. Here's the text of eligibility requirements for the World Jamboree as it pertains to WAGGGS members like GSUSA:

"Youth and adults of national Girl Guide/Girl Scout associations (i.e., those who are members of WAGGGS only) may attend the event with the agreement of the WOSM organization in their country."

This means GSUSA members could have attended as part of the U.S. contingent provided they were invited by the BSA.

But would you really expect the BSA to invite them, considering the current bad blood? GSUSA is suing the BSA for trademark infringement, their organization has badmouthed us on more occasions than I can remember, and many of their councils have gone out of their way lately to avoid being seen in public with us (Memorial Day flag plantings, parades, Scout Days at ball games and amusement parks, Scouting for Food drives, etc.). We could be as cordial and "friendly, courteous, kind" as we want, but I couldn't see an invitation like that going over well.

Other countries had their Girl Guide/Girl Scout units there with their contingent because in many countries the girl organizations are members of both WOSM and WAGGGS (they're apparently known as "SAGNOs", although I do not know what that stands for). I saw a few uniforms there from other countries that had patches on them that had both the World Crest and WAGGGS logo.

11 hours ago, mashmaster said:

It was a mess on Friday for sure.  The amount of people going through the airport shouldn't have been a surprise to TSA and the airlines.   Those tickets were purchased a long time ago.  Seems like they should have staffed up for that.  I am not familiar with the area, is Charlotte the only airport near by?  maybe it could have been split between multiple airports?

WOSM contracted with American Airlines to provide air transportation, and Charlotte is a hub city for AA, so lots of destinations, including many international destinations. The next closest AA hub is Reagan National.

I would guess that they chose AA because they have the closest hub airport to The Summit. United's closest hub to The Summit is Dulles, and Delta's closest is Atlanta.

As mentioned above, Charleston has only 15 daily departures, to only six cities, and they're primarily on small "puddle jumper" aircraft.

6 hours ago, qwazse said:

There was no lack of food. There was lack of food choices thanks to SMs who encouraged/required their scouts to max out on points even if they weren't ever going to eat them.

Thank you for saying this. I know a lot of unit leaders were saying the same thing. The Scoutmaster of our council's contingent told me exactly the same thing. For this WSJ, the point values for the food items was essentially the same as it was at the 2017 NSJ, but the amount of points a unit had to buy food with was more than 50% higher this year than it was two years ago (3,333 points vs. 2,017 points). Troops were maxing out their points each day even if they didn't eat all that food. This was evident on the last day when the returns tent had tons of food returned. So much for a lack of food!

A sign posted in one of the grocery stores explained it perfectly when they explained why they were low on food the final day: the food team purchased enough food to feed 42,000 people for 12 days. Being that there were only 28,000 youth, that should have been more than sufficient, had units not purchased way more food than they needed.

12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I thought the 2017 National Jamboree at Summit which had 30,000? in attendance was training for a World Jamboree (40,000) two years later there.  Summit was designed for 70-80,000.

 

 

The Summit is designed for a National Jamboree of a maximum 36,000 participants, not counting staff, in the 5 participant base camps. There is a document on the Summit's website that breaks it down: 40 participants to a unit, 12 units to a neighborhood, 3 neighborhoods per subcamp, 5 subcamps per base camp, 5 participant base camps, equals 36,000.

The BSA has yet to announce an official attendance for the 2017 NSJ (at least I haven't seen any official announcement), but our camp commissioner at that NSJ told us she was told in her commissioner meetings that there were around 26,000 participants and about 5,500 staff. The area where we camped in Bravo had a dozen empty campsites in our immediate area.

You may be thinking of the AT&T stadium amphitheater, which can hold 80,000.

For the WSJ, they planned to squeeze in more units per base camp, but that turned out to not be necessary. The food team announced that there were 28,000 youth participants, 3,000 adults, and 10,500 IST members, for a total of around 41,500. The max capacity that they planned for was 42,000 youth and adults, plus 10,500 IST. Our council's contingent said there were nine open campsites in their area.

Check the back pages of Scouter Magazine. It's loaded with ads for companies that offer custom products such as what you're looking for.

He's actually not from New York, but from outside Cleveland, Ohio. It just got picked from the wire by the Daily News.  Still a great story, though.

I and my kids will be wearing wicking activity shirts, Scout shorts, and hiking boots on the day we visit.  No need to wear a field uniform--no one else will be. We'll purchase the visitor WSJ neckers upon arrival at the Trading Post.  We'll also be bringing sunscreen, hats, cooling towels and refillable water bottles.

I wore my field uniform when I visited the 2013 NSJ and I stuck out like a sore thumb, because no one else was wearing one--not to mention I soaked the shirt in about 10 minutes because it was so hot, and that was with a wicking shirt on underneath.

On 6/30/2019 at 10:52 PM, Treflienne said:

What is a gateway?   Maybe we should know before we go to camp?

A gateway is a decorated entrance to your campsite. It's not unique to just Summer Camp, although that's where they're seen the most.

At many summer camps, the gateways are a competition between troops and are judged by the camp commissioners or camp staff at some point during the week. Oftentimes, the gateways are themed to whatever the theme of the week at camp is. They can get quite elaborate.

This year is one of the first years that adults are allowed at our summer camp to help construct the gateway, although our Scouts have told us they do not want our help at all (and we don't want to help, anyways), and they plan to point that out to the judges to hopefully get better points with them.

First Class First Year (officially, "Operation First Class") is no longer a program emphasis in the BSA advancement program. While some councils (like mine) still have an award they present to Scouts who complete First Class within their first year of joining, it is no longer something emphasized in the advancement program.

The origins of OFC came from studies done in the 1980s that said that Scouts who got to First Class quicker than others tended to stay in the program longer than those who didn't (these were also the same studies who said that if a Scout did not attend Summer Camp their first year in the troop, they were very likely to drop out much sooner than those who went to Summer Camp, and it also brought on the introduction of the First Year Patrol). Of course, that's trying to apply a one-size-fits-all method when there are so many differences.

Our Scout camp has done away with blue cards. Just an online report that lists everything and can be directly imported into Scoutbook or Troopmaster at the end of camp, if you don't want to print a hard copy.

It's an electronic version of the blue card, but no more having to purchase them at the scout store or hand writing anything.

That is correct. June 1 (or the end of school, whichever is later, for those schools that don't end until after June 1) is the date that one program year ends and the new one begins. On that day, Lions become Tigers, Tigers become Wolves, etc. (in the Scouting sense, of course. Not in nature. That'd be weird.)

That means that in your example, a Cub Scout who will be entering First Grade in the fall would be doing summertime activities to earn the Tiger summer pin. If they will be entering Second Grade in the fall they will be working on the Wolf summer pin over the summer.

https://www.scoutshop.org/catalog/product/view/id/333

15 hours ago, mds3d said:

"Aqua Joe", A Boy Scout official has been arrested and charged with production of child pornography after allegedly recording scouts while they were changing at  Firelands Scout Reservation . 

https://fox8.com/2018/11/01/boy-scout-official-arrested-charged-with-child-pornography-after-allegedly-recording-children-changing/

What policy would have prevented this in any situation?

This particular story is one where an incident was reported in June, 2017 and it wasn't until 18 months later that the person was removed from the program (and only after their arrest). A den leader had made a complaint in June, 2017 to a director regarding similar circumstances to what the person was ultimately arrested over. The director, at the time, only told the person that's now been charged that if it happened again, he'd be fired.

From a news article published at the time of the arrest:

Yet according to the report BSA told Homeland Security "Since all the photos appeared to pertain to changing before and after swimming, a director provided agents with a June 2017 report regarding an incident at the Wakeman camp that may be related. A den leader made a complaint about Close, the affidavit says, and the director told Close that he would be fired if it happened again."

A policy probably would not have prevented this from happening in the first place, but there are some ramifications with that council that are likely to occur because they knew a year and a half earlier that there were complaints against that person, and the only thing they did was to say, "okay, well, if this happens again, then you're gonna get in trouble!"

The criminal proceedings are of course still working their way through the system but from what we've heard, there are parents who are considering suing because of this lack of action back in June, 2017.

There is an answer. Guide to Awards and Insignia, page 35:

"Merit Badges may be worn on the front and back of the sash."

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Scouts_BSA_Insignia_WEB.pdf

40 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I think I’ll have to go into hiding after sharing this link.  I’ve tried a couple of these.... they are identical cookies to the point the space between chocolate drizzle lines are identical.

 I still recommend buying the cookies as at least part of the funds help local scouts.

https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/girl-scout-cookie-equivalents-grocery-store-alternatives-to-thin-mints-samoas-tagalongs

That's because they are the exact same cookies.  As the article mentions, Little Brownie Bakers is a subsidiary of Keebler. Keebler Grasshoppers and Coconut Dreams are the exact same cookies as Thin Mints and Samoas. Made in the same factory. When they come off the line, some go into a Keebler box, some go into a Girl Scout Cookies box.

Our Troop has a number of activity shirts:

Our old Troop t-shirt was red with white lettering/logos. Still worn by many and is often passed down to new Scouts through our exchange closet.
The current t-shirts we offer come in blue with white lettering or olive with gold lettering.

We also offer a hoodie in red with white lettering/logos.

We also offer embroidered polos in blue, red or green, with white lettering/logos.

Individuals can get their name on the backs of the t-shirts and hoodies, and on the left chest of the embroidered polo.

2 hours ago, mds3d said:

Except there is a document from GSUSA national that says prohibits joint activities just not in so many words. This document has already been posted and appropriately quoted but here is is again.

https://my.girlscouts.org/content/dam/wcf-images/pdf-forms/Volunteer-Essentials.pdf

On page 38 states "we must endure that we take care that the activities in which girls participate are exclusive to the Girl Scout program, are safe and girl led, and are conducted under the appropriate supervision of Girl Scouts."  That sounds like a rule against joint activities as they would not be "exclusive" and not under the "supervision of the Girl Scouts."

Do you think that doesn't constitute an official policy from GSUSA national?

It's not a document from the national organization. It's from the Girl Scouts of West Central Florida council. Says so on page 6, and is referenced numerous other places within the document.

They may copy-and-paste text from paperwork from the national organization, but each council publishes their own version of the Volunteer Essentials document for their volunteers.

The copy of Volunteer Essentials that our local council produces is 40 pages shorter than this one, and makes no mention of the BSA at all. Our local GSUSA council has placed no restrictions on girls and units doing activities or programs with BSA units.

Local Girl Scout councils say things a lot that aren't national policy. Our local GS council has on many occasions stated that it's GSUSA national policy that you aren't allowed to do {insert activity here}, when it's perfectly acceptable to do this, even encouraged, in other councils.

Example: Our local GS council prohibits units and girls from doing those fundraisers at places like Chipotle or Applebee's, where a portion of your check goes towards the cause. They prohibit by saying that it's GSUSA national policy. Yet, a quick search of the surrounding councils will provide you with the facts that they all permit these fundraisers, and many of them advertise them on their websites.

Years ago, they tried saying that it was GSUSA national policy that set the prices of cookies. When people called them on it, saying that (a) other councils were charging different prices, and (b) they called GSUSA and were told that each council sets their own prices, they had to backtrack and change their statement.

The documents cited above are all from local councils. While they may use the same wording from council to council (everyone knows how to copy-and-paste), there is no directive or policy that has come from the GSUSA national organization prohibiting relationships, partnerships and activities with BSA units.

Keep it even simpler: ask when they were born.

If a Scout was born, say, January 1, 2005, the he/she can tent with someone if they were born between January 1, 2003 and January 1, 2007.

That's how our troop does it. No issues and no problems with anyone understanding the rule.