Cleveland Rocks

How can a council forbid something allowed by national?

You'd have to ask them.  We all received notices last year stating that using online fundraising for Eagle projects was not permitted in our council. I thought it odd, too, but our council has a few things odd that are Eagle-related that no one has really challenged them on.

Our council prohibits using things like GoFundMe for Eagle project fundraising. Other fundraising sources are permitted, just not online crowdsourcing.

Ask the Counselor for official documentation to back up his/her statement.  The project could begin as soon as he gets approval after becoming a Life Scout.  I have Scouts in my troop right now that have their Eagle project completed but still have merit badges to complete.

Our council is having these discussions at Summer Camp this summer during the weekly adult breakfasts. There's a video and a presentation, and a short survey, then they ask for your email (if they don't already have it) so a longer survey can come later from National asking further questions.

It's the discussion regarding allowing girls into the Cub Scout program.  Same presentation made at the National Meeting, so I've been told from people that were at the NM and are now at these local presentation/discussions.

And that's based on the view that the only thing scouts want is bling.

I would venture to say that it's not the Scouts that want the bling, it's the parents.  It starts in Cub Scouts. In Cub Scouts, you get bling for everything. Complete a requirement, get a bead. Or a pin. Or a belt loop. Or a patch.  When I used to work staff at our Cub Day Camp, we had to come up with creative things to give the Cubs special beads for their Day Camp necklace. Even just showing up at the stations got you a bead.  Pinewood Derby time: everyone gets a participation ribbon. Some Packs have done away with 1st-2nd-3rd place trophies, for fear of upsetting someone. Some Packs have done away with the turtle award for slowest car because that could be humiliating to the person who came in last place. They come up with creative awards, like "best car that looks like a pizza slice", so that everyone gets a trophy.

Now, those Cubs have graduated to Boy Scouts, and parents still think it's the same. They think it's Webelos III.  When my son and I were visiting troops years ago, one troop we visited gave out beads at the end of every meeting that went on a leather patch on their right pocket every time they passed a T-2-1 requirement. That way, they said, everyone got something at every meeting, and it was supposed to serve as motivation to finish the ranks, just like the "Progress Towards Ranks" beads Wolves and Bears used to have.  "But what if they didn't complete a requirement at this meeting?" I asked. "They still get a 'Scout Spirit' bead," the Scoutmaster said.

I've had parents come up to me after Courts of Honor wanting to know why their son didn't get anything at the COH. I explained to them that he didn't advance any ranks, earn any merit badges or earn any other awards. "Well, that stinks," the mom said. "In Cub Scouts, they found something to recognize ALL the boys for at every awards."  I explained (again) that this isn't Cub Scouts anymore and you have to actually have done something in order to receive recognition for it. She still didn't like my answer, insisting that we should find bling for all the boys to receive so they don't feel left out. I explained that feeling left out is an okay thing to have happen, and that it should serve as motivation to get things completed for the next Court of Honor. Sure enough, that Scout had a rank and merit badges completed for the next COH.

Our OA lodge hands out participation beads at every event you go to.  The adults all proudly wear these long necklaces with dozens of beads on them at the events. The Scouts? I don't see any Scouts with them on, save for the youth lodge leadership.  My son's sits in his memory box at home. If he gets a bead at an event, it goes into the memory box when he gets home.  Meh.

Go read the Facebook forum discussions on this topic, and you'll see it's a lot of the parents who are doing the complaining (yes, there are some Scouts, and recent Eagles complaining, but it's mostly the parents). I'd venture that the sons of all these parents complaining don't care one way or the other.

The quest for bling lies not with the Scouts, but with their parents, and their desire to not have their son's feelings hurt.  Or so they think.

The problem with the diamond patches arises for those that have been in it since Tiger Cubs, as the Tiger Cub diamond badge is in the same position that the Webelos diamond badge goes.  I've always instructed my Webelos families when upgrading to the tan shirt to leave their previous diamond patches on the blue shirt, and they'll get the oval Webelos badge when he's earned it.

I point out to the families that they may certainly transfer the badges from the blue shirt to the tan if they wish, but they will have a dilemma to deal with when it comes time to get the Webelos badge, because you'd have to (a) remove the Tiger Cub badge in order to put the diamond Webelos badge on (nearly all the Cubs I've worked with have been in it since Tigers), (b) remove all the diamond badges you just put on to put on a diamond Webelos badge (I don't recommend this, and I only buy diamond badges for those still in the blue uniforms), or © have a blank pocket to begin with and put the oval Webelos badge on.

I would recommend leaving the pocket blank and when he earns the Webelos badge, he'll get an oval one to go there, and when he later earns the Arrow of Light, it'll go beneath the pocket.  Much, much easier to deal with. Plus, he'll still have his blue shirt with his previous badges on them as a memento. Now, while you don't fall into this situation, as your son hasn't been in since Tigers, I'd still follow this practice.  The tan shirt isn't designed for the diamond Cub Scout badges, and even though the Insignia Guide says you can wear them, it will have overlap off the pocket and will definitely look funny once you get them on.

I get the intent, though, of this training that they're trying to utilize. One of the complaints district and council trainers heard all the time was that people didn't have the time to sit through classroom training, for whatever reason, which was one of the main reasons why leaders weren't taking the training they should.  Now, there's no excuse. You can do the training on your time, at your computer, and it's broken into small chunks so you don't have to devote an hour or two in one stretch if you don't want to.

By having you cover every topic in the syllabus with the online training, there's no more instances of an instructor omitting sections or going off the reservation with what is supposed to be taught (see the "you need your uniform for insurance" example above).  When I took SM/ASM classroom training a few years ago, the instructor skipped entire sections because he didn't think it was relevant.  When I took IOLS, what was supposed to be a two-night event was condensed down to less than 24 hours (we didn't even cook dinner even though food was purchased).  The entire time I took both classes, they kept saying all the time, "we'll try to get you out of here as quickly as possible," despite no one indicating that they were in a hurry or had to be somewhere.  The sections that were covered were rushed, and the instructors were almost apologizing that they'll try to get done as quickly as they could.  Same thing happened to me when I took Cub Scout leader training--it was always, "sorry, folks, we'll try to get you out of here soon."

I'm here to learn, and I've already blocked out the time in my schedule, so teach me what I need to know!

While I appreciate the classroom training because it gives you an opportunity to ask questions to the instructor and to the others taking the class, that doesn't help when the instructors are just mailing it in.  All it does is leave you disenchanted with the process.

"Consol Bridge Rock" isn't a rock.  The Consol Energy Bridge spans the valley between the Summit Center and the Alpha and Bravo camps.  It's a hybrid suspension bridge where you can cross the bridge on the traditional bridge deck or along platforms on the suspension cable (don't worry, it's safe).  SSScout is saying to resist the temptation to make bridge sway like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (look it up on YouTube for films of what happened to that bridge).

Everything else here is great advice.  But remember, Event Truly is no longer the Jambo app. A new one is now the new official app with AT&T's sponsorship on it.

I would either wear the CSP of the council you're affiliated with when not at Jamboree, or just leave that area blank.  There's no real protocol for what staff should/should not wear there at Jamboree.

For the other patches, you can wear one on your right pocket and either keep the others as souvenirs or use them for patch trading. Or, if you have lots of them, wear a different one every day!

I have two people from my troop who are attending Jamboree as staff.  They are simply adding the Jamboree patch above the right pocket to their regular uniform.  No unique uniform needed.  Since you can wear that Jamboree patch forever, they won't need to do anything to their uniforms once Jamboree is over.  They're keeping our regular CSP and troop numbers on their uniform.

Thanks @@Cleveland Rocks ! ... I better check with my Troop(s) before purchasing the Eagle knot at Council store then.  Sorry, but what is this CSP you give them? and are the extra mentor and grandparent pins sold at council stores?  thx

Our council sells many different Council Shoulder Patches beyond the "standard issue" one.  One of those is one that has the council name and "Eagle Scout" on it. We purchase and give one to each Eagle at their ECOH.

We (the troop) is able to purchase the square knot at the time of purchasing the Eagle Kit because it all goes together, and they know it's for that Eagle. Otherwise, you'd have to present Eagle credentials in order to purchase the knot.  I had to bring in my NESA Life Member certificate when I purchased the NESA Life Member Eagle knot for my uniform.

The extra mentor and new Grandparent pins are available at Scout Stores and online at scoutstuff.org.

Yes, I was referring to the square NYLT patch. That goes on the right pocket, although it's my understanding that Scouts are instructed at the end of NYLT (at least in our council) that it should go other places on the uniform, like I mentioned above. I've even seen pictures of Scouts at Eagle COHs with it on their merit badge sash.

The new NYLT strip does go on the sleeve where the Trained patch would otherwise go. We just had Scouts go through NYLT this past week and they were only given the square patch. I don't think many even know about the new strip.

We, too, have gotten dinged at Summer Camp at inspection time because of that and also wearing sashes (OA and merit badge) on the belt.

I believe the NYLT strip is work in lieu of the Trained strip, since there is not enough room on the pocket flap for two patches.

I would have those boys get that patch on their sleeve ASAP.

Sleeve? It goes on the right pocket.

I'd just be happy if I can convince my council to stop telling Scouts that it goes above the right pocket where the Jamboree patch goes.

They have also told Scouts in my council, depending on who is running the program each year, that it goes below the right pocket, or it goes below the left pocket.

Thank you Col. Flagg for all of the information and opinions.  Very Helpful! ... One more question:  Where and When do the boys get the Eagle Knot? at Ceremony or just from the Troop.? Thx!!

We give the new Eagle(s) a square knot from the Troop at their ECOH, with an explanation that this is for when they turn 18 (if they haven't already), and that they wear the square knot all the time and not the medal. We also advise them to get AoL and religious award knots on their own if they earned them and they so choose to wear the knots.

The Troop also gives them a special Eagle Scout CSP that our council makes and sells.

We provide, at their ECOH, the Eagle Kit, the CSP, and square knot. The council gives them (well, their parents) a "I'm Proud of My Eagle Scout" bumper sticker. If the Scout wishes to award more Mentor pins than the one that's provided in their Eagle Kit, that's on their dime.  Same goes for the new Eagle Scout Grandparent pins.

I don't know if I'd consider taking the BALOO course an "achievement"?  I think it's part of the process of being a Cub Scout leader.

Do we need recognition patches every time we take a training course?

Do any of the units out there plan their annual calendar with the school calendar in hand? 

In my troop, the Scouts attend 10 different schools, including 4 different high schools. And that doesn't even count the two we have that are homeschooled. Kinda hard to plan around a school calendar when there are so many of them.

It might be easier in Cub Scouts, where all the Scouts are in elementary school, but in Boy Scouts, you could have Scouts in any mix of elementary, middle, junior high and high schools.

The Uniform BOR discussion made me think back to my Eagle BOR eons ago (1988). The advancement chair who ran Eagle BORs in my council was a stickler for full, complete uniform at his Eagle BORs.  It was such that there was an unofficial uniform closet for Scouts going for EBOR. It was not uncommon if there were multiple EBORs on one night for a Scout who just completed his BOR to take something off his uniform and hand it to the next Scout up if he was missing a part.  The Scoutmasters would work with each other to make sure their Scouts had uniform parts available for EBORs if they were missing something.

I had a complete uniform so I didn't have to worry, but I remember my Scoutmaster reminding me before the meeting that I'd better make sure I had all my uniform parts and that everything was in its proper place, which it was.

No one that I am aware of ever questioned or challenged it. Everyone thought it was a good idea to be in complete uniform.  GTA and Methods of Scouting aside, it sure sounds like a good idea!

He never failed anyone that I know of, but he would give you a good lecture if you came in an incomplete uniform.  A friend of mine, who was in a troop that wore bolo slides instead of neckerchiefs, got questioned about why he wasn't wearing a necker. He explained that his troop chose the bolos instead, but that didn't sit well, apparently. 

His rationale for it was, you've been in Scouting for X years, you should have purchased all the components for a complete uniform by now; you buy a shirt when you first join, add the pants a year or so later, add socks later, add headgear later, and before you know it you've got a complete uniform (he rationalized it that way to counter-argue the "uniforms are expensive" argument).

Again, challenge the DE to show documentation (FROM NATIONAL) on all this. Since he won't be able to show any, since it doesn't exist, go buy the patches and hand them out.

I agree! It really looks nice on the shirt. From what I understand according to the current guidelines on scouting.org, the patch is permanent but if they re-qualify in following years they earn a pin that goes on the patch. 

That is correct.  You earn the patch the first time you earn the award; every time after that you earn a Tiger Paw pin that can go anywhere on the patch.

Ritz crackers are good. We use that in our demos with first-year Scouts.

Challenge the DE to show documentation that it doesn't count.

While you wait for the documentation that won't be showing up any time soon, unlike the Summertime Pack Award, the Outdoor Activity Award does not require paperwork in order to pick up awards, so it's not like they're going to verify anything if you just went to the Scout Store and picked up whatever quantity of the award you needed.  And I'm pretty sure they don't verify anything when you submit paperwork (if you even submit paperwork at all) for the Summertime Pack Award.

Thank you for the infograph. I've never seen that before! Looking at it though, just brings more questions. Under the camping category, it says family camping is only allowed at council designated locations. Does that mean our pack summer campout has to be at a council owned property? Also, it says Webelos are allowed to go on den overnights, but not weekend overnights. Does that mean multiple night campouts are not allowed?For any age? I'm more confused now than I was before I started looking!

Family camping is allowed at Council-designated locations.  That means that it has to be at Council-owned property, as you suggest, or at another property that has been approved by your council.  They likely already have a list of places they have previously approved for Cub units.  When you get someone in your Pack BALOO-trained (a requirement before going on any outdoor activity), they'll learn about the process of getting properties approved.  There's a checklist of things that are looked for such as restroom facilities, adequate drinking water, potential hazards, etc.  This is all covered in BALOO training.  Packs are required to have a BALOO-trained person present on all pack overnight campouts.  Many council camps require that you list who the BALOO-trained person is on the paperwork that you submit when you check-in at the campground.

"Weekend Overnights" as defined in the infograph you're referring to are Boy Scout-style overnight campouts, where parents are not present.  You'll see the "Parent/Son overnights" ends after Webelos and "Weekend overnights" begins with Boy Scouts.

There is no restriction on how many nights a Cub Pack/Den may camp, although there are some councils that restrict, so make sure you check with your council as to what they permit.  My council, for example, prohibits Cub Scouts from tent camping if the temperature is predicted to go below 32 at any point during their time on the outing.

I just have a hard time reconciling that the scout shop verifies the merit badge counselor name on the advancement report.  If they are not current, they won't sell you the merit badge.  In our council, the scout shop and council advancement staff have no idea which merit badge counselor was used.  It's verified in the troop.  No verification is done at council level.

The people in the Scout Shop don't verify the name on the advancement report before selling us the merit badge, but they won't sell us the merit badge if I don't present them with the list of who the MBCs were.  The registrar later checks it over.  I know, that's after the fact, and by then, we've already picked up the badges and depending on timing, may have already presented the badge to the Scout.  I have no idea what they do if they find someone on the list who is no longer registered as an MBC.

I just know that when I go to pick up badges, if I'm picking up merit badges, I have to present them not only with a hard copy of the Advancement Report, but also a list of MBCs used for each badge.  I don't know what the council/registrar does with it after I turn it in, but we all do it and no one that I am aware of has pushed back on it. One time I forgot to bring the list, and I couldn't buy the MBs until I came back with that list.

Only National Scout Shops are owned by the BSA. Our council's Scout Store is council owned and operated. The employees are council employees. Of the 8 scout stores within 100 miles of me, only 3 are national stores; the other 5 are council-owned shops.

We submit the advancement report electronically via Internet Advancement (isn't it required now?) and then print out a hard copy to bring to the store. They will not permit me to pick up awards without that hard copy with me, and it had better be signed. Those hard copies from Internet Advancement are just filled-out versions of the carbonless forms you get from Council.  I even bring two copies with me, so the Scout Store people can stamp one as received, and then I bring that back to the Troop with me. The council I was previously in operated the same way. No hard copy of the advancement report, no awards pickup. They will count out awards and make sure it matches the pick sheet and advancement report.

I've spoken to other Scouters who have said their Scout Store operates the same way--no paperwork, no awards. Of course, not every Scout Store out there operates so stringently. There are plenty of stores out there that will let you pick up awards without paperwork, especially if they know who you are.

Now, admittedly, our council appears to be unique in these merit badge submission requirements, however no one has challenged them on it. If you want merit badges, you do the paperwork. I have not met anyone in our council that has had a problem with it.

Wow!  You sure that was not your troop doing it instead of the council.  I'd be surprised if the council staff had time or the council had the budget to do those checks.  That's alot of work.  For many years now, we've been using online advancement.  There's no place to put the counselor name.  The paper form for recording advancement doesn't have it either.  Sounds like a troop practice and not a council practice.

No, it's our council requiring that.  I turn in the advancement reports to council since I'm closest to the council service center. There have been times that I have had the paperwork submission rejected when I turn it in at the counter because there was not an accompanying paper from the troop listing all the merit badges that we put on the advancement report, along with the name of the counselor (we only put "Summer Camp" if the Scout earned the badge at Summer Camp). It might even have the BSA Member ID on it, if we happen to know it.  I've then had to go back at a later time when I've had all the paperwork with me.  I'm not the Troop Advancement chair, but he's told me that there have been cases where the troop has been called later, after they've reviewed the paperwork and told that so-and-so wasn't on the list (I don't know what the consequence is).  It's not an official form, just a list that we print in Word or Excel and submit at the time we submit the advancement report hard copies to council.

We do Internet Advancement but of course still turn in the paper version to council when I go to pick up the awards.  Our council won't let me pick up any awards without the advancement report, and they check the quantities.  If I'm picking up six First Class badges, there'd better be six entries on the advancement report showing six Scouts earned First Class.

Our council does a pretty thorough job with merit badge counselors, in my opinion. We get forms from them every year listing what badges we're counselors for, and whether we want to re-up for next year as counselors. We're allowed to be counselors for 15 badges, and only 6 can be Eagle-required. If you are a counselor for one of the badges that requires certification (climbing, rifle, shotgun, whitewater and scuba) you have to submit a copy of your current, up-to-date certification.  Same for YPT--they won't accept your paperwork if your YPT isn't current. If you don't submit all the paperwork on time (i.e., you're lazy and forgot to turn it in before the deadline), you will have to start from scratch in order to re-up (fill out a new application and disclosure form). Our council also did away with separate lists for troop-only counselors. We can no longer say we will only work with just Scouts from our troop. They do say, though, that you have the option to decline a youth's request if you receive a call from a Scout outside your unit. They also update the counselor list four times a year. It's a password-protected document, and they change the password every year. They only give the password to the council advancement committee, Scoutmasters, Committee Chairs, and unit advancement chairs.

Our registrar is very thorough.

If it were my council, they would return the advancement report to us because the MBC was not registered. We are required to turn the names of counselors for MBs earned when we turn in advancement reports for MBs. If they're not current, or they're not registered for the MB earned, they won't count it.

You can certainly try backdating the blue card. Nothing wrong with that. You were a registered MBC at the time.