Twocubdad

Absolutely. BSA insurance covers prospective members.

Sounds to me as he's trying to ingratiate himself with the boys at the expense of others. At minimum a pretty immature way to handle things. The Scoutmaster, who, as an ASM, he works for, needs to have a conversation about the proper bearing of an adult leader and, possibly point out some of the real downsides keeping "secrets" with the boys may pose. In the other direction, all the adults should help make this fellow feel welcome on the "dark side." Make sure he's not constantly lumped in with the boys. Give him adult responsibilities, not necessarily in direct contact with the Scouts. Give him his own coffee mug and make sure he knows how to use it.

Yeah, I'm guessing that every SM with a boy with a high fever and abdominal pain is going to get them to medical help. I'll also venture that if the same kid shows up every single campout with a high fever and vomiting and infects the rest of the troop, they're going to act on that, too. As a friend and someone concerned about the boy, a conversation with the dad is definitely in order. But as Scoutmaster, we should also be concerned for all the Scouts in the troop and must deal with the one boy's behavior from the troop's standpoint. Having to choose between the two actions is a false dichotomy. This isn't an either or situation, it's an ongoing solution to the same problem. Calico, you may have some professional insight into this the rest of us do not, so it may be appropriate for you to get involved at a level which would be inappropriate for others -- I don't really know, that's a professional call you would make. I don't have that same level of insight. As such, it is important for me to understand my limits. In this situation, my limit is to point out the problem to the parents and let them deal with it. We are trained as Scouters that some topics are left to parents: religion, politics, punishment, sex. Those topics may arise through our involvement with the boys and we may see or know something we need to pass along to parents, but unless that parents ask for our help, that should be the end of our involvement. This is also one of these situations. While Sharky may have a perspective on the boy's behavior he should share with the father, it needs to stop there. Advice to "get him diagnosed" is over the line and meddling in the family's business. Unless we are to belive the dad is an idiot, he sees the boy's behavior, goes on the campouts and is deals with it himself. If he chooses to ignore the friendly advice to seek professional help, that is his choice to make. On the other hand, if Sharky believes the dad's choices rise to the level of medical neglect, his obligation is to report the situation to the proper authorities. While the immediate need may be to talk with the dad, having had that conversation with the dad, Sharky's ongoing responsibility is then to the troop. Our obligation AS SCOUTERS is to deal with a boy's BEHAVIOR (not the underlying causes) and how it effects the troop program. If the boy can remain in the troop while the family gets a handle on his behavior, great. If not, and his behavior continues to be a detriment to the remaining boys and leaders, then he needs to be removed. Hopefully, with the appropriate treatment and counseling he can return to the troop quickly. Whether or not the boy gets help, professional or otherwise, if the situation with this boy festers to the point that other boys drop out, leaders quit and the unit folds, how will we help the next boy who comes along? There are more options available to the troop that help the boy OR remove him from the unit. Spinning that decision as "tossing the boy to the curb" is unproductive. We all need to do what is in the best interest of ALL the Scout in our charge.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

To me, the key part of sharky's post is, "I am ready to tell the troop committee, 'either he goes or I go.' I no longer look forward to campouts as I used to; I now develop a since of dread as the weekend approaches." What ever you do with this kid, the problem needs to be solved NOW. It's not fair to you or the rest of the troop to continually deal with his behavior. You DO need to issue the ultimatum to the troop committee. They need to be on board with taking action to solve the problem. We're all volunteers and we all have our limits. Don't for one minute feel bad that you've reached you limit with this kid. Some of us are better equipped by aptitude and training to deal with behavioral and emotional issues better than others. Your job is to look out for the best interest of ALL the Scouts in the troop. Part of that means the care and feeding of the adult leaders, the Scoutmaster included. I doubt having the Scoutmaster quit over the poor behavior of one Scout is going to do much for the overall health of the unit. Whatever parting advice you want to give the parents about taking this kid to doctors or therapists is up to you, but from your initial post, it sounds to me that talk needs to happen sooner than later.

That's insane. Let me suggest another plan for dealing with these bozos: the appeals process. Sooner or later, when they have enough footprints up and down their backsides of folks going over their heads, maybe they'll get the idea.

I know a concrete finisher who does "collections" on the side. $50 minimum. Make dang sure you pay him.

Thank you shortridge, you just saved me a half-hour of typing. Precisely on point.

You're creating imaginary problems, Calico. Just because a troop "assigns" counselors doesn't mean the leaders are some sort of control freaks. Of course if a parent has a problem with an "assigned" counselor you give him another name. You also privately ask why in case there is some issue with that counselor you need to know abou. If a Scout short-circuits the process of starting a merit badge, goes against the direction of the troop leaders and completes the MB with his parent as a counselor, you award the badge but counsel both the parent and the Scout as to how and why the troop does things they way they do. If the parent refuses to respect the wishes of the troop leaders, perhaps they need to find a troop they can support. That a troop and Scoutmaster want to counsel a Scout before he starts a MB and make sure the Scout is ready for the badge AND gets hooked up with a good counselor doesn't make the troop some sort of second-rate adult-led Webelos III den. And becase a some lazy SM ignores his responsibility, gives out blue cards by the dozen and lets the Scouts shop for a counselor who will pencil whip the requirements, doesn't mean they're running a merit badge mill either. (See, I can spin it in the other direction, too.) It simply means that the program has enough felxibility to allow leaders to tailor the program to suit the needs of the scouts and the abilities, strengths and weaknesses of the leaders.

Therm-a-rests are proof that God loves us and wants us to sleep well on campouts. (Apologies to Ben Franklin) When you say "large" what are you talking about? The big-honkin' 3-inch thick deal? Probably overkill. I have a 1-inch Therm-a-rest and have way over 100 nights on it. It's great. Mine is full-length, but both my boys have the 3/4 length pads. We bought them when the boys first joined the troop and they were perfect for them, of course now they're short. (The 3/4 length pads are for the hard-core backpackers who are trying to cut out the extra weight and don't care if their feet hang off the end.) If I had to do it over again, I'd probably get them the full lenght pads to begin with. Over the past few years many of the bigger suppliers like Campmor and REI have their own brand of self-inflating pads a good bit cheaper than the Therm-a-rests. And the Therm-a-rests have come down in price too. Still not as cheap as a closed-cell foam pad, but I'll make the case that they're worth the price and they last for ever.(This message has been edited by twocubdad)

Without your copy of your blue cards, the council's records will be what you go by. When you submit your Eagle application, the council registrar goes through and verifies that the all the rank advancement dates and merit badges you list on you application match with what is in ScoutNet (the national BSA database). That's why they ask you to list the non-elective merit badges in the order you earned them, because that's how they show up in ScoutNet and it's a whole lot easier on the registrar. It's no big deal to get a copy of your records off ScoutNet. When you're ready to fill out your Eagle app, just call the council office and ask to speak to the registrar. Hopefully, both the merit badges will be on ScoutNet and you go on. If for some reason there's a problem, you'll need to do some legwork to correct the record. The easiest thing would be to contact the counselors and hopefully they have their third of the blue cards. Or maybe they remember you and will be willing to complete another blue card for you. Maybe the troop has copies of the bluecards or hard copies of the advancement reports. It's still not a big deal, but you will need to get it straightened out.

In another time, Mr. Johnny gets his butt kicked for chewing out Skipper's wife. (Reference: "It's a Wonderful Life", the scene in Mr. Martini's bar with Mr. Welch, the school teacher's husband.) Still sitting in the parking lot, your next two calls should have been to the committee chairman and chartered organization rep letting them know what happened. The next move is theirs. They need to write Mr. Johnny a letter (senting it certified mail would be a nice touch) informing him that his behavior toward Mrs. Skipper is wholly unacceptable and until appropriate apologies are made and accepted, he is prohibited from attending any troop functions or contacting any troop leaders. Secondarily, the letter should explain that while parents sometimes disagree with decisions troop leaders make regarding their sons, in this situation, every decision Scoutmaster has made regarding Young Johnny is in accordance with BSA policy, troop procedures and in the best interest of young Johnny. Most importantly, Troop XX and the chartered organization are fully supportive of the Scoutmaster. If they want, they can include a point-by-point explaination of the procedures and policies, but I would not. That can come later if Mr. Johnny is still around. Frankly, unless Mr. Johnny shows some real changes in attitude, I don't see him or his son around much longer. And that's a crying shame for the boy, but that's not within your control. You run your program the best you know how (which is what you've been doing) and let that chip fall where it will. If not for reaming your wife, I would handle this differently, with a sit-down between the dad, me and another leader or two (CC or maybe advancement chairman). But the call to your wife was beyond the pale and calls for a stronger, more formal response. Sounds to me like manipulation is a family trait. Both the father and son are trying to bully you and the troop into doing things their way. Stick to your guns. Deal with bullies by standing up to them.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

And I would add #3 to Eagle's list, follow the program. Not sure the point of this. Based on the program, what's gained by spending the night? For the reasons the others have mentioned, I would try to discourage this. I can see a one-time sleepover, but 4 or 5 times? Neither would I forbid it. Doing so would probably cause an unnecessary fuss. I would simply point out the problems with the "camping" and why it's a bad idea. Hold their feet to the fire to go through all the proper procedures -- getting the site approved by council, tour permits, BALOO trained leaders, etc. Then just let it die out, which I suspect it will after a couple nights. Then be there with some really great, properly programmed pack campouts.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Short answer: wear the correct uniform for your home unit. It's been a couple years since I was on WB staff so this may have been tweaked a bit, but here's the philosophy: You should wear your normal uniform with correct insignia for your home unit. That you're trying to make sure everything is proper is great. During the course, you will be play a role. You begin the course as a Cub Scout. You cross over and become a member of a patrol in Troop 1. You will serve in various positions in your patrol. The staff members play roles, too, as Troop Guides, ASMs, Scoutmaster, etc. As part of that role playing you will be given the insignia for those roles -- a troop 1 neckerchief, patrol patches, position patches, etc. Those should be worn only during the course. Most folks just pin the patches on (especially the positions patches since they change every day) but we had on patrol that took the time to sew the patches on every day (of couse only a couple stitches per patch). There are a lot of folks who will wear their WB patrol patch permanently. Technically, that's not proper. But then neither are the Old Goat and Old Fart adult patrol patches some troops wear. And many if not most folks like wearing their plaid, Troop 1 neckerchief outside the course. As it was explained by our course director, that's not technically correct either. But folks are rightfully proud of their WB experience and wearing the neckers does a lot to promote the course, so what the heck. I'm certainly not going to say anything to anyone about it.

I think it's a great idea. Wear the uniform! My son is the sixth Eagle in our family. For his ECOH all the Eagles (and a few more) arrived in uniform, wearing their Eagle medals. I know a few of the guys are no longer active and likely weren't registered. As Ed says, who cares! Having all the uncles and cousins together, in uniform, was a special thing for the family. And I know the many folks in attendance were moved and inspired. One young boy in the troop told me his grandfather is an Eagle Scout and he wants him to be in his Eagle ceremony. Of course, a number of parents commented as well. Symbolism is important. All those guys could have stood there in blazers and slacks and still would have all been Eagle Scouts. But in uniform, the symbolism of the importance of Scouting in our family was unmistakable. Let's don't get so wrapped around the axle of policy technicalities that we forget the big picture.

Our Scouts wear all manner of long-sleeved t-shirts hanging out from under their short-sleeved uniform shirts. I don't care. That they're present, in uniform and active in the troop is much more important. If the boys were serving in some important public event, like a parade or flag ceremony, we would pay closer attention to appearance. But for routine troop meetings and activities? Nah. Don't sweat the small stuff.

That's really good of you, RD, to take the time to go by and let these guys know what they're doing wrong. Maybe you could stop by our troop from time to time and let us know how we're coming up short.

On the other hand..... While I agree it is doable, I have reservations along the lines of LisaBob and NJCS. This isn't a situation where a friend wants to go on a nearby car campout to see how he likes the troop. I would also expect the young man to join the troop NOW and be active between now and the trip. The troop is making a fairly large commitment to him, he needs to make a commitment to the troop. I would want to have some meetings with the boy AND his parents. Before taking someone else's kid 2,500 miles away on a trip, I want to get to know both the boy and his parents. We need some common expectations. I assume this will be considered a high adventure trip, that you're not staying in hotels or RV parks. One reason for having age and rank requirements for Venture patrols is to know the Scouts can handle themselves in the woods and has the appropriate skill level for the trip. I doubt this is your intent, but if a boy ONLY wants to go on the Grand Canyon trip and nothing else, I would question his participation. I'm not running a guide service. Scouting is more than an outdoor club. If he just wants to go on the trip, there are all sorts of commercial tours he can go on. I hear what the rest of you are saying about this being the trip which sparks the fellow's interest in a Venture Crew, but taking a kid to the Grand Canyon is a pretty high-end recruiting tool.

The couple years I ran Cub-o-Rees I approached it as a one-day day camp, which was easy since I was also the day camp director. Give your district's day camp folks a call and ask for their input. They will have lots of ideas and resources. For example, they're going to know who is certified to run shooting sports ranges; that Pack XX goes fishing alot has folks who would run that station, that they have 10,000 craft blanks left over from summer camp, and things like that. If you're including an overnight campout, you also need to know that, like day camp and resident camp, there are standards and protocols for running Cub Scout family camp. Because they don't get inspected and accredited the way day and resident camps do, I don't think many councils really follow them. But it's a really good idea. Most of the real work involved in following the standards is related to facilities (a certificate that the well water is sanitary, that the swimming pool is properly licensed, agreements with the local VFD and hospital, etc., ect.). That stuff really should be done by the council camping committee and/or the camp ranger. Your focus should be to make sure your program stuff is run properly, like your BB guy and aquatics people are certified, that you have people trained in CPR and first aid, food is stored properly, etc. It's been five or six years since I was involved with the family camping stuff, so some of the details may have changed. I would start with the council's professional program person. He or she should have the info and should be able to direct you to other volunteers who can help.

Where's Hank Hill when you need him? We have about six of the smaller tanks (I always thought they were 10#), which means a couple patrols get stuck with the big ones. They cost us a few dollars more than the standard 20# tanks, but they're a whole lot easier to handle than the big ones. We've even had trouble finding them, so we keep an eye open and buy them when we can. The cost of refills was an issue for us. Not many places refill tanks anymore -- everyone has gone to the exchange system. Even then, they wanted to charge us $20 per tank, regardless of how much propane we actually bought. Fortunately, we found a local distributor who charges us $20 for one tank, then only charges for the actual weight of the propane we buy.

So what did you do with the pack for fun this summer? A few thoughts: What's magic about 50 Scouts and who cares? 40 seems like a nice number, with one good den for every year. Where is your committee chairman? Recruitment should be a function of the membership committee, not the Cubmaster. Divide and conquer. Have a separate new parent's meeting to do paperwork and answer questions. This should NOT include children, but if would be nice if a den leader or two was available to do something with the kids, just so parents don't have to get a sitter. During pack meetings don't talk to anyone over age 11. All questions from folks older than that should be directed to the committee chairman. Chill out with the summer activities. You're trying too hard. You only need one per month. Here are your three, easy, summer activities for next year 1) everyone goes to day camp. 2) a pool party. Find a community pool which will have you then just tell everyone when and where to be. Don't program ANYTHING. The kids just want to play. Don't feel like you have to "run things." Take a chair and cooler. You can play Marco Polo with the boys, if you feel you must and as long as you don't try to organize it. 3) a baseball game. Minor league or maybe the local American Legion. Again, don't try to organize anything, just pick a date and tell everyone the pack will sit behind the visitors dugout. If you really want to, ask the PA announcer to recognize the pack. Adults think they have to account for every minute of an activity. Kids don't. If you let them, they will have a perfectly wonderful time playing Marco Polo in the pool or just running back and forth through the woods. One year as Cubmaster is too early to be burned out. You're trying to do too much or at least trying to make things too complicated. Worst yet, you're setting the expectation with the other parents and leaders that you will take care of everything. Why should they volunteer if they know you've got it covered. Unless you change that expectation, it's only going to get worse. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Oh Lord, here we go again. As you read the BSA policy on tobacco use, keep in mind that the writing of the policy was likely out-sourced to a company in Pakistan where English was a second language for the employees. I'm not even going to try to discuss the policy. Your reading is as good as anyone's. Over the years the phrase "may not allow" has been debated here in torturous depth. I really hope we don't do it again. My advice would be to for your pack to come up with a plan everyone can live with. This day and time, I doubt anyone thinks it's a good idea to smoke in front of the boys. Many camps and facilities you go to will be tobacco free. That your CM seems to be aware that he shouldn't be smoking around the kids is a good indication that he's not insensitive to the situation. If bet if you keep it friendly and in the best interest of the Scouts, everyone can reach a reasonable compromise.

I can't really answer your question, Beav, because, as I have said, our troop doesn't call these things contracts and don't require that they be signed and returned. We do, however have detailed job descriptions which were written by groups of Scouts as a part of junior leader training several years ago. On-going, the job descriptions are presented and discussed during JLT and there is usually an opportunity to amend the descriptions if someone thinks it's necessary. I don't know where Kudu is, but in the past he's been fairly adamant that Positions of Responsibility are creations of adult-led troop and the whole corporate Wood Badge establishment which has ruined Scouting anyway, if I may be so bold as to speak for Kudu. Speaking for my self, since PORs are part of the program, this is just one of a number of ways of setting standards for what the PORs entail. Would a "truely Scout-led" troop come up with this? I don't know. Our out-going SPL would never have thought to ask folks to sign the job descriptions/contracts, however I can very easily see our incoming SPL doing so, if it occurred to him. But then would a "truly Scout-led" troop have come up with membership applications, medical forms and Eagle project proposals on their own?

"The BSA sells out each POR very well." I don't often put things in such absolute terms, but I have to say that statement is just flat-out wrong. Let's look at a typical job description. I opened the book and it fell to Instructor. Here's the official job description: Instruct Scouting skills as needed withing the troop or patrols. Prepare well in advance for each teaching assignment. Set a good example Wear the Scout uniform correctly Live by the Scout Oath and Law Show and help develop Scout spirit. Anyone else here feel the need for a bit more detail? I will suggest to you the "lazy and incompetent" leaders (as Calico describes them) are the ones who DON'T go to the trouble of further detailing the expectations for the job. Maybe this is done verbally, maybe in writing. Using good communications skills would include both, AND provide some means for the Scout to complete the communications loop by acknowledging that he had received and understands the job. Hmmmm... that sounds a lot like what MikeF is saying. No, our troop does not require signed contracts. Frankly, it's just another line of paperwork for someone to keep up with. But with or without the piece of paper, a good unit is doing all those things which would constitute a contract. I think you guys are getting all wrapped around the axel over the semantics of calling it a "contract."

Well, actually, BSA does, they just call them job descriptions and don't ask for a signature. Have you looked at the standard JLT syllabus? All it is is a series of job descriptions and the "training" generally consists of not much more than the SM and SPL reviewing the job descriptions. Change the terminology to "contracts" and it's not much difference. Several years ago our troop re-wrote the job descriptions to better fit the division of labor in our troop and to include specific tasks and methods of operation. That others choose to ask the boys to acknowledge in a formal way that they've received the information and training seems to be an allowable exception. We have a made up "Oath of Office" administer to new troop and patrol officers. That's not in the book either, but like Ingaugural Day, serves to remind folks that a change of office has taken place and who the new players are. Maybe Mike F. has been reading the forums here and sees how much grief comes from Scouts serving PORs in name only and decided to do something proactive about it?

Each of our patrols have several two-man tents and one three-man. The three-man tent is to accommodate an odd number of Scouts on a trip or the extra space becomes a perq for the PL, if he wants to use it. The smaller tents are going to give you more flexibility. And I also agree with Perdidochas that having more kids in a tent creates more problems. I don't know that's a big deal with just four guys, but it certainly becomes a problem when someone brings a big, 12-man Coleman Condo and the whole patrol piles in together.