Twocubdad

Routinely, our Scouts pay $12-$15 for a run-of-the-mill campout, all for food. Our rule on gas is that Scouts should offer to help pay the person he rode to the campout with for their gas, almost all decline. Food is always by patrol, so the boys are in control of the food costs. We went to skiing last month and the cost was $40 for lift tickets and rentals. From Atlanta, I assume you go to NC or WVA for skiing. There are several Scout camps within an hour of the slopes. If you will PM me, I'll give you some camp contacts, if you want to pass that info along to the troop. The last time we went shooting, the troop charged each Scout $10 to cover the cost of ammo. We went to our summer camp and used their guns and range for free. Food for the weekend was per patrol. A two-night canoe trip was $5 on top of the food cost to cover the rental of the canoes, which we rent from the council camp. Our Philmont crew is going on a four-day shake-down trip to the AT in May. I think the cost is $45 for food, but the extra cost is mainly due o the length of the trip and to buy freeze-dried food which is pricey. Normally, we would make due with light-weight grocery store fare, but they want to try a few freeze-dried meals just for practice. Summer camp here is $220. Our annual troop dues are $90 and we do almost no fundraising. Popcorn and participation in another council fundraiser in the spring is 100% optional with all the troop's net going to the boys. Point is, things are probably less expensive that I think you are imagining. But neither is it free, nor should it be. We all value the things we pay for. I guess our guys are maybe $600-$700 out of pocket every year, and that with pretty high participation. And as Moose points out, half of that is for food, which you would be paying for if he were home. Scouts with a need can apply for assistance with both summer camp and troop dues. Scouting is by far the cheapest thing we do with our boys. Music lessons are $25 a week with a $1400 instrument. Rec league sports are fairly inexpensive at $150 or so, but thats for a three-month season. Even the schools here now charge to be on school teams. Times four seasons puts you in the same range as Scouts, but that's rec league. We have friends who pay $3000 just join a hot-shot travel team, then expect to pay another $1500-$2000 for gear and travel expenses. And summer camp? Even YMCA camp is $850 a month. But look, Lord knows I know things are tough. As my grandfather used to say, if battleships were 10 cents a dozen, I couldn't afford a rowboat. If summer camp at $300 is an incredible value, but you don't have $300...... Talk to the leaders in the troops you visit. Let them know up front the total cost to participate is a concern for you. Ask what they do to keep the costs down. If a troop seems like a real silver spoon crowd, maybe that's not the right unit for your family. Or ask them what assistance is available. Or what they do to help boys pay their own way. I guarantee you every troop and council in the country is talking about the increase number of families applying for camp scholarships and assistance and trying to figure out what they can do to keep Scouting affordable.

Corned beef, cabbage and a Guiness?

What have you guys been smoking? I doubt a CSE could spend the night at a camp like that if he wanted to? Have you never seen the amount of fawning, bowing and scraping that goes on where ever he goes? Particularly among the pros.

Does anyone have or can you guys help me find clipart of the "sandwich principle" logo from the health and safety materials? You know, the "Scouting Safety" sandwich with qualified leadership and discipline as the bun? I need it for a training session I'm putting together. I can find it in PDF files, but can only cut and past the text, not the art.

Ah yes, the perpetual struggle between the red jackets and the grey suits. A council dominated by red jackets will starve. One dominated by grey suits will loose sight of it's purpose. A quick death or a slow one? You pick. Under our old scout executive, our council committee and executive board was grossly over populated with the grey suits. It's starting to change, but slowly. The old SE operated all the levers to select council-level committee folks and naturally packed it with people who made his job and life easier. Wining and dining one guy for $25,000 is a whole lot more fun than trying to hit 250 folks for $100 contributions. Besides who wants a bunch of grouchy old Scouters hanging out who know what the program looks like asking all sorts of ill-timed questions? The thing is, the guys in the red jackets bring in a lot of money. Several years running the FOS presentations I did brought in over $10,000. Before the economy went to pot, my wife and I made a sizeable FOS contributions every year -- enough to get us invited to the patron dinner. Although the invitations specified business attire, I and a handful of others always made a point to go in uniform, just to make the point that us red-jacket types had checkbooks too. While the money and contacts the grey suits bring are important, there are a lot of pitfalls in any organization packing it's board with whales. The big one is lack of oversight and governance. Over in Charlotte, the United Way all but collapsed because of this very thing. They packed the board with lots of high-dollar executives who could bring in the bucks, but no one was minding the store; rubber-stamping huge salaries for the executives. The house of cards fell when the board approved a pension payment for the executive director for something like $800K, IIRC, despite warning from the board's own consultants that such a contribution violated IRS regs. Of course the media got hold of it, the director got fired then sued, and contributions to the UW campaign dropped by more than half. According to the paper, one of the ways they made up the deficit was by cutting funding to the Scout council there by 75%. The grumpy old so-and-so's on the board serve a vital purpose. Every organization needs someone who's job it is to ask, "wait a minute, is this a good idea?"

A few times I have told Scouts, "Since we have in fact, conferred, I'm going to sign off of the SMC requirement, but I think we agree you need some more work on XYZ requirements. Even though I'm signing the SMC, you're not quite ready for a board of review. Work on XYZ and get back to me. You don't have to do another whole SMC, just show me you've got XYZ down and you can move forward with your board of review." And then I always communicate that to the Advancement Chairman. Only once has a Scout tried to schedule a board with out my okay. There are a hundred was to handle the situation.....

I've always said Powerpoint will ultimately lead to the collapse of western civilization by undermining the core of our educational systems. DRM and JMH both make great points -- there is no replacement for good teachers who really understand the subject matter.

Did I miss a memo somewhere? Is everyone with pre-2000 beads now required to turn them in? Do you mail them or are there pre-arranged collection points? I assume there will be some formal de-beading ceremony, a la "Branded"? If you don't give them up voluntarily will "they" come get them? Obviously, I disagree with the premise of the thread. As has been alluded to, I know of only two situations where WB21C is required: one, to staff either WB or NYLT. It seems fairly obvious that to teach the course you need to have completed it. Second was to serve as a first, second or third scoutmaster at jamboree last year. Honestly, having serve in that capacity, I saw no particular need or benefit to having WB training, regardless when. There are many great leaders out there without beads. I don't have any inside info on the rational, but I would guess that the policy was, 1) a blatant ploy to promote WB21C and 2) a method of forcing councils to get new blood into their contingents. The first point is rather lame, but frankly anything to get thin the heard of old war horses is a good idea. Is WB21C required elsewhere? SP wrote -- "Personally I have yet to see anyone who has taken the "new" WB course impress me as having superior skills of any kind because they took the new course rather than the old course." That could be said of any BSA training. After a few years in the program, it should be VERY plain that real Scouter training is OJT. The folks I've seen with superior skills pretty much brought them to the table to begin with. I don't believe any one course is going to create a leader with superior skills. Those come from experience working with boys and learning how to apply the program. If that is your expectation of WB old, new, or otherwise, I think you will continue to be disappointed.

I confused by this "Silver Beaver" award of which you speak. Are you referring to the blue and white Good Ol' Boy knot? BD and I must be in the same council. Our council has interpreted this being a "council level" award to mean that only service directly to the council is considered. So that means all the muckety-mucks (outgoing council presidents and commissioners are a lock) and program committees. Unit-serving volunteers aren't eligible, unless they do double-duty on with the OA or camping committee.

I take "every day life" to mean 24/7 which includes time with the troop AND elsewhere. Why in the world would you create ANY exception from living the Oath and Law?

Our standard kit of stuff -- hat, necker, shoulder tabs, name tag, a nameplate for the patrol wall, and troop activity shirt -- adds up to about $30. While I'll take a chance on a fairly safe bet, we can't afford to gamble on many long shots. While the big deal is the Webelos campout back in the fall, ouR troop open house isn't until late January, about three weeks before crossover. We ask the Webelos den leaders to distribute Boy Scout applications to the parents a week or so prior and ask them to bring the apps AND a check for dues to the troop open house. We're pretty forgiving of forgetful parent and other exceptions. But the process sets the expectation that we need a commitment. We're very upfront about the cost of the goodies and are clear that we need some level of commitment to the troop prior to crossover -- preferably in the form of a signed application and dues payment.

What a chicken s*** way to treat someone. I wish I knew the CC, UC and DE. I'd like to tell them so. Dispicable.

Same way one skates through anything else in life -- taking the easy route, doing the minimum, cutting corners, just getting by. The requirements for Eagle, like many things, may be pass/fail, either/or, black/white, but that doesn't mean no one notices when people give extra effort and quality work.

I agree changes in the requirements and BSA's approach to them (see current definition of "Active") makes it possible for a Scout to skate to Eagle if he wants to. But the greater influence has been social changes over the past three generations. How many of our parents would have spent $5,000 so we could play baseball on a hot-shot travel team? How many would have paid an engineer to seal the plans for our Eagle project? I don't need to write a long post on all the ways children are induldged/supported, depending on how you want to spin the conversation. Making sure little Skippy has Eagle Scout on his college applications is just one of them.

007 -- Not to be snotty about it, but we do that thread a couple times a year. Currently -- http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=300672 October -- http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=256241 May -- http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=276988&p=1 And if you really want to know how I feel, see my post from last Feb. at http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=263500

My expectations for Roundtable are nill, which is why I don't attend. Moose, I think it's great that you're willing to help, but drop this one. This isn't a hill you need to die on. Yes, you can make a case that presenting the new med forms or tour plans should come under training, but not necessarily so. With the challenges you already have trying get the priority classes up and running, you need a hassle with the RTC like a sucking chest wound. You offered. They declined. Move on.

We required all packs to send adults and cubs to camp in a 1:4 ratio. Boys registered through their packs and we required packs to submit the adult registrations along with the boys'. This gave us plenty of adult coverage, including program staff. Occasionally, we would have a pack which just couldn't provide the adults and we would work with them. This system essentially forced every pack to help us recruit volunteers. The key is to find folks with an interest in a particular program and let them run with it. I was always lucky to have really good folks who enthusiastically took on the core stations -- aquatics, shooting sports, fishing, crafts. These were folks who knew their stuff and just handled everything for their area. Several of them have run their area at day camp for many years. I found that for the other stations, if I had a solid idea, it was easier to find volunteers to run them. Otherwise, they rather feel as though they've been fed to the wolves (bears, tigers and webelos, too.) To me this was great, as I really enjoyed developing the camp themes and putting together the programs.

A point Kamelian made awhile back has troubled me -- that the pack really has no association with the CO at all. They meet at a school across the way, aren't members of the church, and don't do much with the church. How many threads have we read of troops who couldn't get their foot in the door to recruit cubs from neighboring packs. The solution almost always is to start your own pack. I think this is the first time we've had this particular situation. I've wondered more than once reading this how one could go about creating a second pack at a CO without the cooperation of an existing pack. I know it is technically possible, but I can't fathom the ensuing political nightmare. Given the non-relationship between the pack and CO, I've rather envisioned any attempt by the church bring the pack around to end with the pack leaders taking their ball and going home. I think your plan for meeting with the IH is extremely high-risk. As Seattle says, it may be sound short-term, but painful in the longer term. Then again, in the very long term it may give you the opportunity to start a new, more cooperative pack. But given the leadership situation in the troop, it doesn't sound like you've got the horses to pull that off. I would suggest going to the IH and having the conversation. BUT, don't go in with any pre-conceived solutions. Ask for her help to find solutions. Explain the situation as factually as possible. Don't demean the pack leaders. If they are as you describe, she will discover their nature eventually. Explain the long-term ramifications to the troop of not being able to recruit. (Being blocked out of your on back yard is probably a worse situation than having no pack at all.) Above all, be Scoutlike, positive and with the approach that you need her help to find a solution.

OH YEAH, And the real question, which of the parents are stepping up to take responsibility for these functions which are over burdening the Scouts? Have a sign-up sheet when you meet with the parents.

This one has my Spidey-sense all a-tingly. I can't imagine my DE having such a meeting. And there is no way he would do much more than to boot the problem back to the troop. I recall from your earlier posts that you deal with the boys, your CC deals with adults. What has been your CC's response to all this? Why didn't she call you? Where are the Scouts in all this? Do some of them feel unhappy/over burdened? Or is this just a parent thing?

Don't know. Try calling Supply Division in Charlotte. As long as you're not trying to buy BSA merchandise direct, I don't know why they wouldn't pass along the contact. In the UK, the beads are made by a couple ladies at Gilwell who make them from twigs off the trees there. At world jamboree, everyone wanted a beads from Gilwell so they were making them as hard and fast as they could go. Some fellow ran them over to the gift shop as soon as they were finished.

I did re-read the workbook, but I'm really looking for something more targeted to the beneficiary of the project. And I did show a couple completed workbooks to the folks who were very impressed. But I'm looking for a 1-2 page leave behind. Short -- there is no particular Scout in this situation. The school approached us to encourage Scouts to consider the school for projects. Their approach would be to for the facilities committee to develop a number of projects -- including all the plans, specifications and budgets -- so when a Scout asks, they just hand them the file. And without some training, I know the school folks will totally take over the implementation of the project, too. I'm just trying to help them understand the BSA's expectations for an ESLP.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

If I never lay eyes on my IH or COR and never have any interaction or contact with the CO whatsoever, that they give me the keys to the building, pay for the untilities and allow our 60 kids to meet on their property demands my loyalty, trust, gratitude and best efforts to act in their best interest. Period. Everything else builds on that.

That was gross. Do they really want to associate Doritos with sucking some other guys fingers? Yuk. The Darth Vader ad was great (thought it was for VW, but who cares). The kid was great, but you really have to relate to the dad with the clicker messing with the kid. I also like the smart dogs Bud Light commercial. Gotta love anything with dogs playing poker.

Does anyone have such a document? I've been asked to help with a local charter school to coordinate Eagle projects. It's a new school and has lots of opportunities for some good projects. Unfortunately, the administration doesn't seem to "get it". I'd particularly like something which describes how the school should work with scouts, that is, ensuring that the Scout takes the lead and is truely running the project. My concern is the school sees the Scouts as free labor with the school controlling everything and the boys there just to help. If no one has such a document, what would you suggest including in one?