blw2

blw2, on 26 Jan 2016 - 3:05 PM, said: Which then begs the question: What good is a NSP? If you are going to have a TG/PL and then some older scouts help from time to time, why not just call it a patrol of mixed ages? *BOOM* You now have the patrol method and take the training wheels off the Webelos IIIs. I cannot help but think the whole new scout patrol idea was created by adults to make it easier on them, not better for the boys. I hear everything you're saying but the question that was begged seems to be answered, in my thinking anyway, in that it allows existing patrols of boys who are friends to stick together for better patrol spirit and so on and it encourages the new boys to bond as a cohesive patrol. In your why not situation, it seems like the requirement to mix it up could be negative just as easily as a positive. To me, the arguments against mostly seem to have several predispositions that wouldn't make sense and sort of derail the whole thing The concept of mixed ages is forcing groups of boys together, or forcing groups of boys apart (adult interference perhaps)... just as the idea of forcing all new scouts into a single patrol is perhaps adult interference and these arguments against NSP all seem to assume that all new scouts have to be a) new, and b) the same age. Now I can see logically that this would mostly be the case...BUT if you take away those requirements, then it allows for the cases where, for example, you might have an experienced scout in another patrol that is willing to leave his patrol for one of many possible reasons... maybe he wants to try his hand at PL, &/or maybe he has a friend in this new patrol, or maybe he's buttig heads with someone in his current patrol and they need to separate, and so on....... I don't know....It just seems that if the "new patrol" is allowed to be more fluid and less rigid, then it might just well settle in pretty quickly to where it needs to be without any of the forcing either way (and even if the boys choose it, I wonder ...are they choosing mixed because it's the suggestion that has been given them (boys can be suggestible after all..), or they think its the best idea because it's the only way they've ever seen it done... Again, I hear ya, several folks here have experience that proves they don't work. AND I'm neither for or against the idea necessarily. but it just seems like there are some good points or plusses to the idea too.

sort of a side track point here but the idea this practice just seems to scream to me that it will derail a patrol. Interesting to read that you don't do that.... makes total sense to me but what do you do if only 1 or 2 boys from a given patrol sign up for a trip? I'm inclined to think that with 2 or more the patrol should stick together. but with only one from a patrol, I'm a bit puzzled. I suppose let him then tag along with another patrol.... is that what you do?

I know we've hashed this around a few times lately, & I see the points against them.... but I have to say as I'm looking at the idea theoretically, I still think it can make sense So it's 3rd year WEBELOS .....one of my developing pet peeves is the term WEBELOS two, etc... they are all equally WEBELOS, just 1st year, 2nd year, and 3rd year sorry....ok back on track... So it's 3rd year WEBELOS. But I'm thinking of the TG is sort of like the Den Leader and it seems like that "den leader/TG" could enlist help from other older scouts as needed to get everyone going...... as sort of a responsibility to give back and so on... a scout is helpful, right... then over time, the higher performers will advance and others won't.... but they could stick together indefinitely (assuming they all like each other and want to). A few might leave for other patrols as friendships develop, new scouts might join the patrol, and so on... At some point not so far down the road, the TG is no longer needed, and the younger patrol can carry on as normal. but I do understand that it all could be a delicate balance, and without the right prep and guidance, or without the right personality for the TG job, or with just a bad mix of new scouts in the patrol.... it could fall apart in a hurry... but it also seems like it could work really very well, too. If I'm understanding Stosh's last post, it seems pretty much like that to me..... the relatively new guy.

My comments come as more theoretical mind you, since I myself am just stepping into a troop from Cubs But your post makes me think of the book I read a while back,So far So Good, A new Scoutmaster's Story( http://scoutmastercg.com/get-clarkes-books/) The story isn't exactly about your situation or question, but the take away I got from it was more or less this: Point the scouts in the right direction and let them run with it. Let them know that their Scout handbook is their "Rule Book" or "directions" for everything for the game. Give the scouts the baseline, maybe expectation.... as in let them know they are in charge, explain the patrol concept and the 6-8 member suggestion. Ask them to figure out how they want to split up their patrols, and then each patrol will elect their patrol leader, and the patrol leader will select his Assistant. The way I'm thinking, it's not to give them basic direction then leave the room... but instead to participate in the meeting, guide them, asking them questions to get them to think about stuff from a different angle, etc...Encourage them to look things up in their rule book when they have questions, etc... You're only losing 9 out of 31 so even though they might be young, a bunch of them have still been around a while, right? So then, maybe this whole thing starts with the troop electing a SPL. Then during the meeting that SPL becomes the ultimate decision maker. I know this is probably too simplistic and theoretical, but the thought process seems sound to me. And Stosh's experience seems to indicate that they can handle it. Oh, and I like qwazse's suggestion to talk with your 14 year olds for input. Might be very informative!

Hilarious! At least all of those don't typically role together all in one meeting..... errr, do they???

yeah, right! Forgot about that one... Hey, what about those new two wheeled wheel barrows? They look to be much more stable...

drifting off topic a bit but here's a somewhat related question... real life for me... but a point for discussion too My son and one other boy crossed into a particular troop. the others in the den went to another troop As of now, these are the only two WEBELOS crossovers for sure, more are probable but as far as I know not certain, from another pack or two Troop currently has 3 patrols 7 scouts 8 scouts 10 scouts assuming the roster is correct so + the 2 new scouts, that's 27 scouts I have no idea really about active vs not very active counts... but let's assume for this discussion they are all very active. Now, let's say for discussion that the existing patrols are all solid. All the boys like each other and want to be together. none of the patrols can nicely swallow the 2 new scouts and keep within the magic number My son knows several of the existing scouts, but the only current scout that my son is really good friends with, happens to be in the largest patrol. Now it's easy if they get another 4-6 new scouts, they could form a NSP (yeah, yeah, I know...). BUT if no more join with this round of crossovers.... So, what are the scouts to do? What do you see as their best option?

Yipee! Yesterday, I sat through what will probably be my last marathon day of Scout Sunday Mass / B&G Banquet / AOL ceremony / Crossover Ceremony / Pack Meeting / that is really only about Farewell to the WEBELOS (pause for deep breath) My son is now officially a member of the troop! Also a member of the last 'graduating class' of Arrow Of Light AWARD recipients. I regret that I was not persuasive enough in my time as ACM and CM to start a shift in this thinking for the future families of the pack. Oh how I wanted to at least start on the path of separate events. at least move the AOL ceremony to whenever they actually earn it (maybe now that AOL is a rank, it will be an easier thing to swallow) Anyway, it's done. I am proud to have been involved in the Cub Scouting journey of these 6 boys, as well as those that did not stick it out. Hopefully they all can look back a long time from now, to some happy memories. After we listened to lots of speeches, ceremony scripts, and so on....I pulled the group aside right before they crossed the rope bridge, and quietly told them very simply, "It was an honor, and I hope that each of them will go on to become First Class Scouts..... & I don't mean the rank..." I figure they don't understand what i meant fully, but I hope they will some day think... "oh, now I understand what he meant!"

In very broad terms re patrols and boy lead, i think a better way to think of this might be that all troops are the same, or at least should strive to be. This is an example where I would buy that troops might differ a bit. A young troop without mature youth leadership might run into issues like this, in theory anyway...

ummm.... yep along with a few 15-17 year olds and a few adults maybe with some carts, wheel barrows, or dollies.... Some of those young guys are almost my size!

interesting question. Here is what i would start with to develop the idea.... I think the idea comes from a podcast or two over at scoutmastercg that pretty much cemented it all together for me pretty well when I first started to change my focus from pack to troop. I don't recall now for sure which ones, but I think one was probably the old recorded interview of GBB, about the roots or origins of scouting.... something like that. It struck me as simple really, and very "logical", once it clicked when the patrol was likened to a natural band of friends... a neighborhood gang if you will (not a gang in the modern sense of a bunch of of ne'er' do wells, but a group of friends. Forget about scouting and patrols for a moment Picture a natural group of friends They form naturally, in a school or around a neighborhood perhaps. Usually, but not always, they are similar ages or similar abilities.... but at least they all have a similar interest. The core group of friends will stick together for a long time, and form lifelong friendships and they will have the most fun when they are doing what THEY want to do, not when following an adult's or anyone else's agenda. Many times, gangs in the old days at least, would all have a good "team spirit", maybe with a common jacket or T-Shirt... This group of friends might be mentored or guided along by perhaps a cool uncle, or a big brother. They stick together and help each other along. Everyone in the group pulls his own weight... has a responsibility, a job to do that helps the entire group. The other members of the group give incentive and encouragement for each to pull his own weight These group members learn helpfulness, responsibility, and so on... Once in a while, they might have a competition of some sort against another gang from the same or nearby neighborhood.... maybe a ball game or whatever. The members of this gang will really have fun once they realize that they are in control and can do what they want to do as a small group. The boys really have an opportunity to learn leadership while having fun. really get to spread their wings in a lot of ways. Now, the lifelong friendships won't form if the gang is constantly changing members They won't even form that tight patrol spirit type of bond. It's all very natural and logical, and is bound to work since it's what every boy wants to do naturally. you get the idea..... so the gang is the patrol the common interest that they share is "the stuff that scouts do" (which by the way as BP suggests, is also a very natural thing for a boy to enjoy) the big brother or cool uncle is the Scoutmaster the other gangs that they play ball with are the other patrols in the troop and so on...

one comment on the fundraising thing, and parents or scouts doing it. A few years back, I bought some mulch form one of our former cub scouts, delivery included. When it came time for delivery, I was surprised when one of the leaders pulled up with his truck and huge trailer and a bunch of the adult leaders piled out to do the unloading and toting to the top of my driveway. Silly me, I was expecting a bunch of Scouts.

well, yeah of course. I never figured they'd produce his stuff always at extreme risk.... or extremely remote locations always. Sometimes it prob is. Especially his latest show where he's going out with famous actors and such... I saw one where he had some actor repelling down a pretty seriously high cliff. Even if they played camera tricks, it was still cool... that's what i meant.... repelling out of copters, and cool flashy stuff might really grab a boys attention... and maybe encourage the venture scouting movement to boot! Now I used to like watching Les Stroud's show. As I understand it taht was the real deal.

I think what he meant by SOP, wasn't some sort of formal management type documented thing, but just one of any of those "doing it because that's the way it's always been done, & I don't know any better" things

SOP's are a big part of it but a unit with even the absolute theoretical best SOP's can be derailed I think, by a new adult coming in and "improving" something. I suppose the same could be said about a new youth leader... a PL or SPL for example, "improving" something.... maybe based on something they're getting from their parents, or their own ideas.... All well intentioned... but how are they to know if they don't know, training stinks, and the great all knowing leaders from the past don't do a proper handoff....

that South African spot was one of the ones I was referring to. some good ads there... My opinion is that good TV ads would be a good thing of course, but I don't think people watch commercials like they used to. DVR's allow fast forwarding to skip them (what I do). Also a lot of folks are cutting the cable and going back to broadcast tv, but cable is still big & I'll bet more folks are watching cable than they are local channels.....but even worse against TV commercials is that I think a lot of it especially kids, is watching streaming stuff (youtube, netflix, etc...) I think the money would be better spent to produce a good TV show. Yeah, i know... a lot more expensive, but maybe BSA could partner with some outdoor gear manufacturing companies or something.... I'm thinking something better than taht Tougher than a Boy Scout thing.... I saw one episode of that, it was ok but not exactly grabbing. I think a scout executive type like bear grylls doing some really high adventure stuff with some young scouts each week, in a format that really teaches a viewer some woodcraft stuff and entertains at the same time

happened in the woods that back up the houses in my neighborhood backs up to....maybe 1/2 mile as the crow flies from my house, someone growing back in the woods started a forest fire that burned maybe 30 acres or so. I never did hear what came out of it.... but it was quite the scare flames were a good 30ft+ above the pine trees just across the street. Came very close to several houses, and almost made it upwind around the pond so the wind would have pushed it right to my house lickety split. My wife had a great picture of it, but I accidently deleted it trying to download it from her phone.... still kicking myself Anyway, my point is, that I've hiked back through those woods before that exploring, and have planned to do it more if it ever gets cold enough to knock back the bugs and snakes (it's very thick...) But I have often wondered what might have happened had I stumbled onto that farmer working his field.

I have no memory of ever seeing one either. and the stuff I have seen, like promotional and training videos from their website, aren't what i would call very effective. A while back somebody posted some scouting commercials from some other country that were quite good.

I think this one point, along with getting across that the police's purpose is NOT to stop crime, is the best justification for guns. It's completely logical, I think, to encourage good people to have guns once you think about these two points. Oh, and I know it will be questioned... cops are not there to stop crime because there is no way they can be everywhere all the time. Their purpose is to discourage by investigating after the fact, discourage speeding by writing speeding tickets, stuff like that. Remember, it might be a long long time between you dial 911 and the cop arriving to your door. The closest cop might be many miles away from you when that bad guy comes in to do harm to your familiy. I love the axiom, "I carry a gun, because I can't fit a cop into my pocket"

bolding is mine another well said for this statement! I've been noticing that not too many scouters (well actually none, as far as i know about personally), actually spend any significant time doing extra-curricular reading about scouting, participating here or in similar venues, listening to scoutmastercg podcasts, etc... I might be wrong about that... there may be some of my friends here & i just don't know it.... anyway, i have thought about this a fair bit. Nothing wrong with not doing this extra thinking about scouting, and it certainly isn't an indication of intent, ability, etc.... but it's just an observation.... that loops back around to some of our threads about practical training, or the lack thereof. i suspect a lot of folks think they are doing the best service to the scouts, think they are facilitating a real patrol method troop, but just don't know that they don't know enough to see the nuances. It also doesn't mean they are inferior scouters....nor is somebody like me a really good scouter necessarily... because there's a lot of personality and natural ability or skill in the art of teaching and coaching and the like... and it also doesn't mean that the scouts aren't getting a lot of good out of those programs either.... in fact they probably are getting good from any and all units.

yeah, at this point I honestly don't care about the rank for him, except for the lessons of goal setting, hard work, stick-to-itness, etc... I figure if he gets 1st class I'm happy, but even that I really don't care that much. It's more about his improving in most of the points in the scout law (which he does need to improve). I'd be proud of his eagle, but that for sure isn't my wish for him. so very true. I get that & I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt everytime I see something that makes me wonder. one of my concerns is that with an active scouting program, he won't really want to camp or hike with old dad since he'll have his fill of monthly camping.... but that's my problem, not his

Boy, get busy for a few days and threads Explode! Took me two sessions of reading over a couple days to get caught up on this thread. I have a few random comments Very true, and probably a common thought.... statistically probably very unlikely for some sort of attack on scouts.... but who would have thought the odds were high going to school, or going to a movie? So the whole thing about the dangers of gun free zones come to mind.... & I would prefer to have many trained and responsible people equipped at the places my family goes - always. I had an interesting conversation a few months back with an austrian friend of mine currently living in Germany. He was contemplating moving back to the US because the opportunities there aren't great (think he has dual citizenship) But he is seriously nervous about how many people here have guns & how dangerous it is here I pointed out that I guess the stats are skewed here, because you have such big centers of population with huge zones that are unsafe to the average person... and many of those are more or less gun free zones (baltimore, detroit, chicago, etc...) but the vast majority of places here aren't that way at all. My gut tells me that a lot of this issue is human nature, and humans, even the crazy ones, live everywhere. They always have. Everytime someone says something about how dangerous it is now, I tell them pretty much what Stosh said here (below)... adding that the bad people existed when we were kids too, we just didn't know about some of it and thought about it differently.

all this eagle mill talk has me concerned again about my son's options moving forward.... i think sometimes taht there really isn't a good choice... all are eagle mills. We have 3 troops to choose from, really two based on geography. the 3rd we could make happen for him but it's less than ideal.... so one troop is for sure an eagle mill... not the troop he chose. I'm still not so sure about the one he chose... from what i can tell it's perhaps a hybrid. It seems like the boys run the meetings, and tehy have a strong effort into running PLC meetings, but then it seems so adult driven other times. It just came off a growth spurt coming back from near death just a few years ago. the SM is a good guy and I think they are legitimately trying to do the patrol method, but i keep seeing things that make me doubt the sincerity. i guess we'll find out in the next few weeks for sure!

thanks for that tip! i wish I would have seen this earlier this afternoon, my wife was near the scout shop and asked if I needed anything! oh well, missed opportunity!

Well, i for one see Stosh's point. Maybe I'm missing some subtle underlying points or meanings here, but The way I look at it, his posts like these are food for thought.... an exercise thinking outside the box and making an effort to help others think about stuff from a different angle. Not as absolute statements that are all encompassing. Instead of trying to dissect and analyze every syllable I'm seeing a bigger picture to the comments. He's right, in that boys observe others, especially adults in positions of authority. Boys need role models, adult associations other than the parent. A big brother type, or a cool uncle or cool grandpa to help guide him through some things that a parent just can't and a big part of that need has more to do with associating instead of directing. Sure a boy needs directing and he gets plenty of that form school and through other avenues. Even scouting. But there's another association too that we can consider