blw2

@@TAHAWK wrote Not: "We are learning these knots for advancement" Instead: "We are learning these knits to build a wilderness survival shelter !!! I love it! It seems to me that this is what pioneering is all about... or should be. A fun and productive way to learn and use knots taht doesn't seem like classwork. It seems to have become an exercise rather than a fun project based on the recent exposure I have had with scouts doing it (as in demonstrations at U of scouting classes, at WEBELOS AKELA camps, etc..) I've written before that I think patrols and troops would be more fun for the boys if they focused more on that sort of thing.... backpacking instead of tailgating... even if driving to the campsite going on journeys instead of to a destination testing a boy's mettle instead of testing his patience in sitting and listening

oh yes! but sadly... I said "just a bit of fun" it is treasurer after all. I have ASM on the brain, since I'm drawn to the program side more I think.... i like doing the things that scouts do, camping, hiking, and all of that... and I enjoy getting to know and helping the scouts. I really don't enjoy dealing with the adult drama.

That does seem like a bugger.... if all PL's are elected on the same cycle, along with other PORs, the troop gets rattled pretty heavily on that same frequency. Having only a few of the PORs shift at any given time seems like a pretty good idea! Now I have one more reason that might justify my intuition that keeps telling me this rigid election cycle, & or rigid patrol shuffle cycles, just don't seem right.

oh, this treasurer thing might actually to turn out to be kindof a good thing. It never dawned on me that it will be a great avenue for encouraging boy lead and so on. maybe just a bit fun even.... I can picture a scout, or worse a parent, bringing me payment for something, then I say, "no thank you. why don't you give it to your scout to give to his scribe"? So In a sense the patrol scribes might be like the retail clerks in a department store while the troop scribe is like the store manager, in that he tallies the stuff and sends up up to corporate accounting (ie the committee treasurer) do most troop and patrol scribes issue receipts for payments received?

yeah, not to speak ill of the guy at all but unfortunately I think he thought the troop was a good bit further along that it really was I just think it was a case of not knowing what he didn't know. I've had that in the back of my mind a lot, and I often wonder if this isn't the core to the probably subconscious thinking of many scouters as they let the boys "think" they are leading... you know, the whole lip service thing. and I think this thread really points to it, as adult led, boy run where the adults decide what, when, where, and why... while the scouts get to choose the who and the how and by this the adults i think genuinely think they are doing boy lead

My son and me attended our first troop meeting as troop members this week, and it was a COH They did it as a ceremony, led by the SPL and I think the other boy was ASPL they called up all the boys that made each rank, one at a time.... called up say 4 boys taht had earned 2nd class. called their parents up to stand behind did a little script handed the pin to the boy, who pinned it on their parent (i'm pretty sure the patch had been presented at the time of completion) then one of the boys lit a candle then they moved on to the 1st class group and so on short enough to not be too bad in my opinion.... In cubs, the B&G was full of ceremony, too much ceremony (since we lumped in AOL and crossover too)..... to the point that everyone was bored..... but rank and other awards were just handed out with applause at regular meetings

boy, this sure reminds me of a conversation I had with the old SM back when I was CM and also acting CC for the troop. The SM had only recently taken over as SM, was previously some other role for the troop and had been around a while (older son is eagle). So he was in the early stages of trying to turn the troop to "boy led" During a committee meeting when no boys were around, something came up about planning where and when to go to summer camp... or maybe it was a more routine monthly/local camp anyway, i said something about boy led and shouldn't they be the ones deciding where and when they want to go, then trying to find enough SM and ASM to take them? His answer was, "I'll be "dunked" if I'm going to let a kid determine when and where I'm going camping"... or something to that effect anyway.... and he didn't say "dunked". The comment took me by surprise since it seemed so out of character for this guy. Well I saw that line of thinking was going nowhere, at that point in time, so we moved on....

more great points! so really, @@Krampus' directive to Set up a time that you will be at meetings to collect dues, paperwork, etc. might really be more like, "Set up a time that you will be at meetings to collect dues, paperwork, etc. FROM THE SCRIBES" Would you say that's fair? I like it.... @@Krampus, question.... you mentioned that all monies/paperwork should come to me only... but then go on to exclude paperwork. Is there any forms or paperwork you can think of, that the Treasurer should be collecting besides money and receipts? We're using troopwebhost, and it looks like they have a lot of built in account and paypal functionality So I'm thinking at this point to really stress making all payments using that. then having the scribes involved to follow up with late payments and so on. Do I have that right? IF someone brings cash or check, I'll give receipt, then deposit the money and record it properly in troopwebhost & when folks need to be reimbursed I can do that one of three ways a) paypal transfer, b) mail check using ebanking, c) write an old fashioned check seem about right?

wow @@Krampus, very well developed I think. and very helpful answer!!! Thank you!!! there's still a question outstanding though, who does most of the communicating? I know you listed, for example that scouters, scouts, and parents all use Soar for email and calendar, but who is doing the sending or entering most of teh time? Lots of great ideas & I like a lot of those considerations. It will take me a little time to get up to speed on if or how we do some of those things. We use troopwebhost. It seems that most of the troops around here do, I don't know why really. I know it does a lot of what you have outlined, but i'm not sure if it does it all or not At first glance though, your system seems very fragmented.... with lots of places to monitor. I'm sure in practice it's not that bad, but still, wow that's a lot! and one side comment. i used to use shutterfly for these kind of things in cubs and for kid's sports teams, but I found that the site is really set up more as a sight to sell photo mugs and such. If a parent sees a pic they like of their scout, they can order a christmas tree ornament with the photo on it, but they can't just download the picture to add it to their collection. Sites like google photo are a bit better IMHO.

ok, yeah... great points! adults never read my emails in cubs, so why should it be any different now?!? so change the question.... who does the texting, talking, or whatever in your troop? you forgot option 4) the boys are going to do a massive scramble and get things pulled together at the last minute proving to themselves this isn't the fun way of doing things that they can get away with minimal effort and it will be good enough, and thus save all that time paying attention, planning, and otherwise preparing, but instead goof off and STILL get to go on the campout and then have fun there too. So really then, I'm NOT looking at it wrong at all! Because my suspicion is that in an ideal troop the adults wouldn't be doing so much of that stuff. instead the boys will get more growth out of doing it themselves! bringing us back to my original question.... how much of this stuff do the adults in your unit do? ... or maybe a better question might be, who does it & how does your unit do stuff like this?

Thank you everyone! a lot of great food for thought here. Things I would not have thought of!

why I think it would make sense for the PL's to do the draft at the PLC, not in front of the scouts (just an old adult rambling here....)

I wonder about the origins of these sorts of rules, did it come form a long ago scout or from an adult, and now it just stands as SOP because the boys don't know anything different? (as in the boys don't even know that they CAN question it or change it..) & these are the sort of things where i want to echo comments I've read here before.... that's adding to the requirements... In my troop, i just learned that they have specific term periods for various positions. Nothing wrong with it I guess, but it's the same sort of thing. Why should it be that if they made a mistake in say a PL, that the patrol would have to suffer for X months before they can fix the problem? makes good sense to me maybe they are in the same patrols because they like their patrol mates. why does that have anything to do with BSA's model or advancement? I actually think it makes sense for them to stick with the same patrol... but not forced to, only if they want to

Stosh I had a very similar look on it as a scout. I was further derailed because we moved when I was just starting WEBELOS, and when I finally joined a troop I went in older than the average new scout. When we moved I didn't rejoin a pack in our new city, I really have no idea why. I don't think it was my preference, although I don't remember having much fun with the crafts in cubs. The we moved again, and I joined a troop with a friend to be with some classmate friends of ours that were more advanced scouts. Me and my buddy were in it for the fun only, and since we were so far behind our peers the fun didn't last long. One of my regrets.... but I think it was very understandable and it points to a youth viewpoint or situation that we as adult troop leaders should probably remember.

How much emailing (or announcing) do your adults do vs your scouts? And not only email... could be verbal announcements in a meeting, a document of some sort, etc... I've read many times, the words of wisdom, "Never miss an opportunity for a boy to lead." It came up in a thread yesterday and got me to thinking about something... Since I'm really new with the troop, and I don't have exposure to what other troops do, I'm wondering if this is something we might improve on a bit.... Our troop get a fair bit of emails from adults, that seem to be sent to everyone in the troop.... all adults, parents, and the scouts that have email ...a reminder about an upcoming event ...an announcement of some sort of charity drive the CO is doing ...a reminder to bring in a payment for summer camp ... a directive of what to wear for a meeting coming up (wear your uniform with sash for example) ... a last call to register for something .... a reminder about upcoming elections, passing out a ballot pamphlet for anyone that wants to apply to run for POR, complete with full job descriptions and minimum requirements (looks very adult, but may not be..) It strikes me that every one of these, or nearly every one, is really something that could be coming from the SPL, or maybe even better to each patrol through the PL. Maybe form the scribe, the chaplain aid, quartermaster, etc... So how does your troop or unit do it?

stosh wrote: Most defintely! The more times the POR changes, the more opportunity for more boys to learn how an organizations' books are kept. Very important skill later in life. Well I guess I'd better learn it quick then, myself! I figured with just a little effort I could do lightyears better than any unit Treasurer I have worked with to date.... several with the pack, and one for the short time I was troop CC awhile back. In 6 years, I have never really seen what i would call a proper financial report at a committee meeting (and I keep in mind it wouldn't take much to fool me into thinking it was proper... I'm not a cpa) Mostly these folks have been absent, like pulling teeth for folks to get their reimbursements I figured the job at the pack level was busy just a few times a year, such as dues collection time fundraising time making deposits and such collecting and reimbursing for various trips or events and cutting a check for recharter then the occasional leader reimbursement. I figured the troop level treasurer would have a bit more active, with more frequent camping, more potential equipment purchasing, and such.... but still, with just a little effort easy enough for relatively organized guy like me. I figured to get the troopwebhost financials pages set up, online banking, then it should work fairly smooth. Honestly, since i was asked to do it a few days ago, I have been too busy to look into it very much. This thread is my first look really. It never dawned on me that it might be anything like what you have described @@Stosh. It really makes sense what you say, but I can imagine a constant mess to clean up dealing with kids whose hearts really aren't into it anyway.... as I imagine most troop and patrol scribes are. I figure most of them sign on for a gravy job... It does seem like an interesting way to drive "boy led" & POR from a different angle though I know the troop does have ISA, but I'm under the impression they are really more like a prepayment account. Put $100 in, then pull out the $10 for the weekend campout, pull out the $24 for dues, etc.... oops getting low, remind the scout he needs to refill his account. I've seen that ISA's have been discussed before here, and they are sometimes a hotbutton topic... but I never paid all that much attention to those threads. Not really my area of interest. I guess I will now!

good thread

and yet that is exactly what the new handbook says! well truthfully, it goes on to contradict that in the next paragraph, but that was the point that they seemed to be making

this was pretty much the point I was trying to make earlier. Good point Mattr. I attempted to stab at this point earlier, when it seemed some seemed to be saying that NSP= all the same age, i.e all 10 year olds or same rank, or whatever. In my thinking, the NSP would be the den of new signups. Could be a star scout that just moved in from another city, or a 13 year old that just decided to try scouting. They would stick together as long as they wanted, or scouts would transfer out or in when they wanted as friendships develop, etc... Sorta like what you outlined here, that your troop is doing. I like the idea. I also like the idea of exactly what you described except that they elect their own PL from within or from without as long as everyone is willing. We have something we call a NSP patrol that has two older scouts as PLs, only runs for about 4 months, and gives the new scouts a chance to figure out who their friends are and learn a bit about the huge change between cub scouts and boy scouts. The adults don't need to be involved because the scout leaders in that patrol are old enough to deal with cats. It works well for us. The scouts are ready to leave when it's done. Something I rarely see mentioned is that scouts must have friends in the troop or they will leave (I did). In particular, after they're 13 it starts getting very hard for them to make friends in a troop setting compared to what they get in school. So the first two years are critical. Just as important, 1 to 3 really good friends is all they tend to have or need. More than that and I start seeing too much high school drama if the friends are all in one patrol. What that means for us is our patrols are tending towards different aged clumps of friends. It's certainly not a single age and it's not evenly split. Right now my patrols are better than they've ever been so I'm happy with it. I completely agree. there are probably kids out there, those type that make friends everywhere they go... within 2 minutes of walking into a room of strangers.... but those seem to be an exception. Friends are important It's why I didn't stick with scouts as a kid it's why I didn't stick with school band in HS after doing it for 7 years. We moved, then none of my new friends were in band. awesome! I think I'll suggest that one to our scouts if they don't already have something similar.

ha, oh so right Stosh... oh so right! I went wrong way before I walked into that meeting though. I know pretty much all the adult folks in the troop. I was even the troop's cc before the current cc, for a very short while before I took on CM and other hats in the pack. I had to let it go to focus my energy in the pack where i was getting very little help. And so the CC contacted me about the treasurer thing several days earlier. On the other hand, I want to help anyway. Definitely don't want to be one of those parents that sat on their hands while I was wearing the CM hat + 3 or 4 others. I'm definitely not the person that lets everyone else stack the chairs. It's a curse. Oh, and good tip about the CO's treasurer. I know they have the church secretary, but surely they have someone in that role. I'll search that out! Hey, I love this idea of getting help from a scout. Thanks! and you're prob right that I should have waited... but at the same time I think my being involved with scouting has encouraged my son to stick with it, even though I'm not working directly with him. Just putting on the uniform and getting ready for the meeting together creates a bond of shared experience... so I was bound to jump in sooner or later anyway.... and this committee idea actually seems like it will get me in the door, while still maintaining distance from my son's scout experience. I love the idea of looking for way for a boy to lead! so it sounds like I should be working with the scribe, specifically. Stosh and Eagledad, or others, can you give me some examples of how that might work? what are some things the scribe or boy would do for the treasurer?

well put, Stosh & Sentinal. Thank you. oh, yes, very good point and I'm well aware of that potential. As someone else here keeps pointing out, i'm in that similar boat too. But to answer your question... he was a den leader until exactly 1 year ago. He has a very calm demeanor, and seems to think things through. I don't think he's the type to jump in too quickly. He still is very likely to jump in too soon though, as are most adults I think, experienced or not. This seems like a great suggestion. In practice though i'm not quite sure how I'd go about that without coming off as a back seat driver. After all, he is the ASM... I'm not. Seems to me that my best approach is to observe, over that cup of coffee. Then if I see something going south, have a quick brainstorm with him away from the scouts..... or maybe come back here for specific advice Thank you for putting that idea to mind! I definitely will keep it in mind and look for ways where I might do that effectively. Your quotes didn't come through.... You said "what am I afraid of?" I don't understand your question. None of this discussion seems to be about being afraid of anything..... It seems like this is a very hot button issue for some folks. I will re-iterate that I don't really have an opinion either way, except my looking at it logically.... with my knowlege of people, kids, personality types, etc... and when I do that, I have to say that I think Stosh is very likely right - in that some NSP's are structured to fail (such as Krampus'), and others really make a whole lot of sense. Most things have a right and a wrong way, so why should this NSP thing be any different?

Well thanks for that Barry, I really appreciate that opinion. How long does it take?... maybe not long at all for an extroverted happy hearted scout.... a good bit longer for a shy one perhaps... &, well maybe an eternity if the other boys they are forced together with are not a good fit for him. The only other comment I have on that is that a person might have been doing something 50 years..... BUT that doesn't mean they were doing it correctly! Lecturing someone else about having an open mind, if you yourself do not have one, kinda destroys your credibility.... just a tip from a novice that has been walking this earth dealing with people for only just shy of 50 years..... but then, maybe I've been going about that all wrong in that short time my troop is not nearly that big as Krampus' example, & I'd guess the bulk is 1st class and lower but it was said that a ASM will be assigned to the NSP, so I do fear that Krampus and Eagledad and Eagle94's experiences might be closer to the truth in my son's case... than is Stosh's model of how it might work (which really does make sense to me) I know the ASM that was mentioned, and he is a really great guy, in many ways. A former DL in my pack and an Eagle himself. Based on his personality and the way he works, there is good hope for the best.

thanks scoutldr, I was sorta thinking along those lines last night driving home... but it wasn't clear to me how to do that really. I like your suggestion! I kind of don't think they really have any 'books'. Just a bank account and associated statements. I think a couple of the ladies on the committee are accountants or book keepers. They weren't treasurer but I think they were tag teaming it in the absence of the last treasurer, who as far as I know wasn't very engaged or active. I think maybe I'll ask the CC about your suggestion. Maybe see if we can coordinate a non registered parent or two to have a look at everything. At least put it to the entire committee I think. I don't see getting much out of the CO on this, but worth an ask...

I took my son to his first troop meeting as a scout. It was a COH, so that was interesting to see I think. I learned for sure that they will be forming a NSP with my son and his friend from our den + around 4-5 expected crossovers next month form my son's school. Good thing I suppose that he knows most of them. As I've read from some of you, these NSP's are often found in eagle mill troops. I would say that it does look like we are advancement focused but they seem to be doing a fairly good job at boy led, or at least very well boy run. Seems like the boys are running the meetings, but I'm still thinking the adults are way more involved in things like setting this COH up as a potluck, arranging and coordinating summer camp, etc.... I was surprised when a Committee member stood up to make announcements about and calls for registration deadlines for summer camp. Why wasn't the SPL or a designee doing that I wondered? Anyway I figured I'd be going the way of ASM. That's really where my interest lies. But the CC asked me if I would take treasurer. I always stayed as far as possible from the money in the pack.... too many opportunities for folks to suspect impropriety for my liking.... kinda goes along with my personal rule to not do business with friends and family. Oh well, that's where the troop needs me, and I'm a fairly well organized engineer with decent attention to detail, so I guess I can handle it. The way this troop operates, committee members are welcome to camp with the troop. I know that's not really ideal to have too many adults along, but why not on occasion? I'll do my best to be a "cooperative volunteer", as clarke greene defined it in a recent podcast. a side note about the NSP.... flipping through my son's handbook this morning, I found a page that describes the NSP, and the hole deal of moving out a 1st class... right there in the 'manual'. Not listed as an option, exactly, just the way it is. SO, I guess the concept is here to stay, good or bad.

I guess for me theoretically, the idea all boils down to one thing and that is "let scouts stick together as a patrol if they want to". Don't force it either way...