blw2

The time I went skydiving on a whim, the friend I went with, and his wife, were experienced skydivers... and one of them was a lawyer... they told me the same thing about all those waivers I was signing

interesting point about the frontal approach. Matches my experience I suppose.... frontal almost never works, while subtle rarely does.... at least it's not as "upsetting" in most cases. I have I guess instinctively been doing this a little bit with an ASM and committee member that I'm closer friends with.... asking questions and "telling them about a great idea I recently read about".... stuff like that What you say about committee is certainly true. The reason in that case I was talking with the committee folks is that I'm on the committee, and we were talking about my picking up things that they are doing. Since I'm committee instead of program, I see my .... well let's call it responsibility, is to 1) bring some program and overall BSA perspective to the committee, and 2) really focus on my advisory role to the SM and ASM's but my real ability to affect any meaningful change is probably very slight, given my position.

Oh boy, I have already heard that chorus singing loud! I only barely broached the topic so far once with the CC and a couple other committee members present... really just feeling it out about how much they have used the scouts in the past.... "Oh, no... we don't want to do that. This is real money we're talking about!" I love your outline and suggestion. Exactly what i was hoping for! I mean no offense to them.... I think it's a very natural and logical response, and one taht is very tough for some folks to let go of.... Often I think it's only because i'm interested enough to spend some time thinking it through, that i'm able to grasp some of this concept. So many scouters seem to show up to the meeting, almost not having thought about scouting since the last meeting adjourned. In the heat of a meeting (Troop or committee), it doesn't really give time for a parent to digest the concepts here, and how silly some of this helicoptering really is!

I was going to say that I thought there was a release on the application or someplace.... I forgot about the medical form!

related to this, as I'm getting the treasurer responsibilities passed off to me, I learned that they currently tie event permission slips to the treasurer job. Basically it' to make things a bit more streamlined since the treasurer is confirming that they paid, so they just note on the permission slips if the scout paid, or if it's coming out of their scout account. It makes a little sense but it's very adult involved I was really tempted to just say no at the outset. I'll take the payment, but I'm not going to wear the hat of the outdoor activity chair too! But since that position is apparently vacant, and currently shared by several folks.... I figured I'd move forward in the spirit of cooperation but at the same time, I see that this is certainly a job that a scout could do and plan to push it back to the scouts so perhaps a patrol scribe. It's up to the scouts to decide if they want to do it that way, or just lat the PL do it, or someone else....

yeah, but think about it.....they've been putting pictures of kids in the news paper forever, complete with full name in the caption.... sports, and other things. in the pack, we were always careful to use only first names and last initials if needed, in the rare case when wee'd post a scouts name on the pack site. but not on facebook.

thanks for that tip on 511 pants. looks like they have lots of good options. a couple different green colors though.... tdu green, pine, tundra, and maybe another OD color. Do you remember which one is the match? Yes, that buffet buster waistband (love that term!) is funny. I really don't like elastic pants, because I tend to take care of my stuff and keep it a long time.... elastic just doesn't last. I've had to throw out a lot of clothes only because the elastic oxidized and was shot. In fact, now that you mention it by scout switchbacks are sagging a bit, prob wont last much longer... 5 years now, so maybe 6 is all I'll get out of them.....

great idea!

lots of great points brought up by all I think your comment about their being more comfortable pretty much nails a huge part of it! and @@MattR, your observations about the scout rebelling against being pushed might very well be the best answer yet. Although I would say that in the cases I have observed, it's not overt pushing as you described.... for Eagle or whatever... But more likely an almost subconscious thing. I certainly have no designs on my son making eagle..... I do want him to make 1st class and would be proud if he truly earns Eagle. I can honestly say that I'm not pushing him in that way. Don't think the other leaders in my example are either. BUT what we all ARE doing, is a bunch of little things like making him go to meetings. Where some other kids might have an easier time of skipping a meeting now and then, for example.... the leaders kid doesn't really get that choice. We are going to the meeting anyway, so we sort of drag him along. (not kicking and screaming I mean... more subtle than that) Also, we leaders know what's going on in the troop, better than an 'average' parent might..... So, we are much more likely to give little reminders and nudges here and there.... So, in a way scouting is not their journey and their journey alone. As much as we might try not to, we just can't help but make it "our" journey as we travel along WITH our sons. In a way, it's helpful as our sons are more likely to stick with it, at least to a point.... but in a bigger way perhaps, we are cheating them a bit, by our volunteering and efforts to give! So, I feel like you touched on what might be the core answer to my question!

well no, in my case it is a lot alike you describe.... they're being held to a higher standard perhaps.... which means that the scout gets called out on the issue AND he gets an earful on the ride home but that doesn't change the fact that the deed was done.... no matter how small.

or even 7? and I suppose you would do taht without consideration to that particular scout's situation? Wouldn't it be just a wee bit better to find out first, if it was a position of responsibility? Perhaps that scout who's day you just ruined happened to work in a patrol, as qwazse described below.... and the next scout that comes through and you allowed to continue happened to be a troop level POR... in a troop of two scouts that met once every 6 weeks and camped every couple of months? now I know it's an exaggeration, but it illustrates a point.... EXACTLY! On the otherhand, this might, maybe, be a case where you might want to ask more questions. If it was a light weight position of training only.... then ok, yeah, i see your point @@John-in-KC

Well of course, some of us are blessed with those "perfect" kids I figure it's like a bell curve a few just don't know how to be good for whatever reason some are like Eddie Haskell and are just smart enough and fast enough to never do the bad stuff where they get caught some are good kids that trip up often and make mistakes I'd guess that more fall in that upper-middle zone, being really great kids that trip up slightly, once in awhile then you have a few that are truly just good eggs that never seem to get it wrong.... we have a few leaders with kids like that

I forgot, how many scouts did you start with? ... and these will bring the roster up to how many? Regardless, it's great to see a big growth spurt like that i think. It drives a lot of positive energy.

Since I first got started back in scouting as a scouter, I have always been strict on myself about wearing the official uniform as much as possible.... from the shirt down to the socks. The only deviation I have made is my Tilley hat. SO, I'm shopping for a pair of long pants. I only have one pair, and they are the zip off convertible ones... IMHO they are horrible. Like most things that are multifunction.... they are not good shorts and they are not good pants either. the zipper falls right at a bad point on my knee. Anyway, looking over at scoutstuff, the only non-dress uniform pants they have are zip offs! Ugh!! Now I'm considering getting a pair of those tactical style pants if I can get the right color. I hate to do it.... but they leave me no choice! Any suggestions for a good pant that's a decent match for the uniform?

We've beat this one to death, but I couldn't agree more. Except it seems to me the venture patrol candidates might be willing and maybe even interested in helping the younger boys once in awhile. Kinda seems to me that it could be encouraged on an occasional basis.... Keeps them 'grounded' in the troop, helps them in working with others, etc... and it gives the young boys a role model and so on. This being one reason why it makes more sense to me, to do it as a patrol rather than a separate unit.

another upshot to the digital is that it might be easier to synchronize everything so there aren't so many conflicts. and compile them into fewer but larger sources that are searchable. But For something that I refer to often, I'd almost always prefer a hardbacked book, or at least a "perfect bound" one. I don't know why, but I have noticed that when I'm researching through stuff like BSA documents and handbooks online I often feel uncomfortable and don't retain as much.... but then as soon as I press print, and hold the pages in my hand, i can flip back and forth better, and for some odd reason, I understand and retain it much better! Happened to me just the other day.... I was reading through the help pages for our troop software service. Lots of links on most pages pointing to other pages so I was getting lost. As soon as I printed out all 60 pages of the financial help chapter, I could read through in order and make much more sense of it.

I don't know what that MSWord document is, or who wrote it. Might very well be a cut and paste from something specific (I'll trust you that this is the case). & I can certainly see how one or many folks might interpret it based on this wording But I can almost guarantee what you are saying just is not true.... regarding your interpretation being the "intent"... just based solely on common sense and logic, & IMO It looks way too much like a semantical argument from where I'm sitting! I mean really... think about it... The SPL, PL, and TROOP Scribe all get credit by your definition.... even when they are in a troop of 3 scouts total. While a the patrol scribe in a patrol of say 12 Scouts doesn't count? come on... get real. that being said, you bring up a valuable point Fred. Your words of caution should of course be heeded, because there are certainly folks out there that would put up a stink about it. I'm curious about this. As a newly minted and still not fully operational Troop Treasurer, I'm looking for ways that I could or should be using the Scouts. I've no memory of reading or hearing about a troop treasurer Scout level POR, so I'm guessing that this position is obsolete, taken over by the scribe. BUT I'm wondering about the "Some of which" that went to the Troop Treasurer. In what way was it split? I'm guessing that this might mean that a portion was held back for use with buying groceries for patrol outings and such... is that right?

I'm not a fan of foil meals It's a cool novelty & I know there are ways to do them better, and a lot of the result is in the ingredients.... and you have to have the proper heavy duty foil and the coal bed needs to be just right but every time I've seen these things done it has been a failure they typically aren't done with what I would call the right kind of ingredients the coals aren't ready when folks are hungry so cooking starts too early burnt or stuck or not very tasty or some overdone others under done some get holes in them some come unsealed others aren't marked well enough so taht the owner can't be identified It's a chinese fire drill for the "pit master"

at a recent committee mtg, we were discussing the idea of using a venture patrol as an effort to hold the older scouts. Our SM has had experience in the past with Venture crews pulling the older scouts out of the troop instead of in addition to the troop, so he's against the idea. He's promoting the idea of encouraging a patrol. Sort of like the Leader Corps I've seen discussed here before.... or maybe call it an older scout patrol. Since I'm relatively new, I look at it from a bit more of a neutral perspective. In my thinking it makes sense that a crew would likely distract. The whole idea of a different rank/advancement structure and a split unit just really seems to be over complicated and a bad idea. But, in my thinking... if done right the idea of higher adventure and older scouts hanging with older scouts makes total sense. It's all the stuff that I would have liked to do as a teen, and I imagine that it would still appeal to a lot of them now. I like the idea of the different shirt color. Sets them apart.... kinda like the Beret used to be in the military.... or paratroopers blousing their trousers. and I like the idea of coed. But it just seems to me it's a better aproach to do all of this within the troop rather than competing against the troop. I just don't understand what they were thinking in setting up a separate program.

Has anybody heard if they plan to revise the Guide To Advancement? I'm guessing the 2015 edition doesn't address the new stuff.

Interesting consideration... advancement concerns. I wasn't even thinking along those lines in my question. oh, and by POR in this context I wasn't thinking PL/APL as of course each patrol would have that. I was thinking more along the lines of the patrol as a working team.... efficiency and all of that. and the support positions and perhaps having it by more or less fixed roster instead of a rotating thing. such as fixed positions for some term... 3 months, 6 months, whatever... Jimmy is the QM. His job is to work and coordinate with the Troop's QM. Make sure that the camp kitchen hardware is properly stocked, cleaned, and in serviceable condition, as required for an upcoming event. that we have the necessary ropes and other stuff we need for the planned activity. If something is amiss, he would be in charge of coordinating through the PL a work party to square away the issue. Tim, now he is working on his cooking skills, so for the next x number of months, he will be our Grubmaster, in charge of doing or at least over seeing the stocking of the pantry and such, making sure that since the patrol wanted to make tortellini alfredo, that we have the necessary cream, butter, cheese, etc. on the shopping list. Making sure that the QM knows we need a big pot + a skillet.. He might not necessarily be doing 100% of the cooking, but he will be overseeing it... like a head chef in a kitchen Now Tom, he really stepped up this round. He's scribe in charge of notes, dues, attendance, and so on.... only because nobody else wanted to do. and so on....

yeah, MattR there's very likely a little piece of what you say going on.... but again the instance that prompted me to start this thread wasn't as much my son as it was some worse things done by other leaders' sons. None of us are overt pushers... but then again..... We are there every week so how can we not be? Are they being pushed? Yeah, in some ways at least. They all have great attendance, likely mostly because the parents are going. But that is very likely a factor too, just as you say... We are probably reminding them about things fairly often.... likely more, but not necessarily more than any other average parent/scout... especially the helo parents. In a way, those of us that volunteer might be considered the V-22 Osprey's of the helo parents. Most of us all make pretty good effort to keep our distance, to not push, etc.... but it's just nature of the beast because our close contact with the program. Bad, sure, but also the boys whos parents are involved seem to be much more likely to stick with the program. One thought i had this weekend, and indirectly touched on by some of these responses.... I plan to discuss with the SM adn ASM's to make sure we are on the same page regarding discipline. If i'm in attendance, I'd appreciate their addressing any issues with my son. I want to make sure they aren't sitting over there thinking, why doesn' that guy do something about his son?

IIRC? and regarding your comment "Of what use is a patrol QM if the patrol has no gear? or a grubmaster if all cooking is done on a troop level? or a scribe if the parents simply cut the troop a check every year? " ... exactly the thought running through my mind as I come up to speed as treasurer. I'm trying to figure out what a scribe would even do re. money.... troop scribe or patrol. We discussed this in another thread recently. I understand the point that a scribe should get involved with what I'm doing.... but truthfully there just isn't all taht much he could do.... except perhaps when a parent tries to hand me a check in the back of the room during a troop meeting, I could direct them to have their son give it to his scribe.... Probably a worthwhile approach... but really it's not all that much. I've mentioned this rough idea a time or two, and our CC really raised eyebrows at the idea.... about a kid handling these big checks.... and parents not liking that. She's prob right, but that is precisely why it would prob be worthwhile to do.. Helps train parents in a subtle way, and help the scout subconsciously see that it really is their troop.

interesting! Do they do glued bindings? I knew about the spiral stuff, and similar.... didn't know that they did what I would call a real binding. I'd prefer a lightweight hardback most of the time, but would be happy if I could get it paper-backed. Honestly though, now that I've taken an hour or so and flipped through the book, I doubt if its something I would really want to take with me or refer to much at all. I'll look through it again, but It just doesn't look like taht great of a resource.

Those are the two things I thought of.... but they don't add up . At least in the situation that prompted me to start this thread. Well maybe teh 1st one a little. Well a lot in terms of me expecting and demanding more. I've spoken with other leaders in the past that all agree with this..... But in my case this time at least, while it's possible that I just didn't notice the other kids doing it, I'm fairly sure that wasn't the case. The thing about comfort with me being there. Well,at first in writing this response I was thinking that because there were many other leaders in the room that these boys would have not been so much more comfortable just because a parent was there.... but now taht I think, maybe the parent being present is a safety net in some way.... bit doesn't the kid know taht if he does something wrong taht he's gonna know about it later! yeah, something I'm really trying to remember... and is why I didn't correct him like I would have in cubs. I fully intend to do my best to miss a fair share of meetings and most camping. We'll see if I can pull it off