Trevorum

After all this time, we're back to Rooster's definition of "respect". I think there is a fundamental (heh, heh) difference in the connotation of the word, which leads Rooster, The Scout, and perhaps others, to believe it is wrong to show respect for religious beliefs one does not agree with.

Fie on the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Her Holiness, the Invisible Pink Unicorn (pbuh), is a far superior deity! "Like all religions, the faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that she is pink; we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her."

BSA has already drawn that line for you. It's called "The Declaration of Religious Principle" (DRP).

I'm thinking that not all other RT attendees might have your experience with a diversity of cooking techniques. I think you should explain them all (handouts are good) and demonstrate 3 or 4. My favorite is always survival cooking - "no pots, no matches"!

TheScout, I believe you have been gravely misinformed about what Scouting is all about. It is NOT, and never has been, a Judeo-Christian club. Should you wish to associate only with persons of your own religion, there are many options for you. In contrast, Scouting welcomes people of all faiths. Are you familiar with the official BSA policy statement on this matter? "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion." I strongly suspect that you don't know much about Wicca other that what you've been told by other Christians. Please know that the ethical principles of Wicca and other Earth based pagan faiths are 100% in alignment with BSA. I am glad our troop has a Wiccan family. And Hindus, and Muslims, and Mormons, and Jews. And UUs.

- Now that the courts have cleared the way for the 2010 Jamboree to return to AP Hill (hooray!), the planning can begin in earnest. And I need some advice. In 2005 I volunteered at the MB midway to plan and coordinate for 2010 a MB which was not then offered. This MB will require some complicated logistical coordination with the AP Hill folks. I want to start moving forward with the advance planning but I can not find any information about who to coordinate with at National. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Religion and science are yin and yang. Both are present in a whole person. Each leads to awe and reverence for the numinous.

The opinion (Winkler v. Gates, No. 05-3451) is at http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/1Z0Z95CE.pdf

hmmm... Mixing prose and poetry rarely works. But I like the attempt.

Dan, P.R.A.Y. is an independent, third-party organization that has volunteered to serve as a clearinghouse for physical distribution of medals, upon approval by the respective religious authority. P.R.A.Y. has no direct affiliation with BSA other than also being a member of the RR subcommittee. There is no BSA requirement that awards be administered by P.R.A.Y. and many religious awards are distributed directly by the religious body itself.

Re: coed Scouting, I agree with Oz. A properly run and supervised troop should not have to fear any hanky panky on a coed outing. I'm a parent and I would have absolutely no qualms about either of my sons OR my daughter attending a coed BSA activity. Most other Scouting organizations around the world are coed at all ages, and the system works just fine. On the other hand, I'm not in favor of coed 10-14 but for reasons other than a fear of illicit nooky.

OGE, you make an excellent point. (By the way, did I say you make an excellent point?) We've been having these discussions on the committee recently. It's like turnng a battleship.

Dan, Thank you for these links. I had not previously read the curricula. They are excellent. In my opinion, I find the material to be in complete accord with Scouting principles and ethics. Even more so than some of the other curricula I have seen. The only sticking point I could imagine is in the H&C material regarding "magick". Although magical elements are present in most religions (eg., the Christian transmutation of wine into blood), it's not called magic and the explicit empowerment of individuals to form their own magick may be unsettling to some traditionalists, especially given the long but misleading association in popular culture of the word "black" with the term. I should point out that the objection that BSA had to the UUA material was not in the curriculum itself, but was to some supplementary church material that was mailed out to applicants along with the medal brochure. The accompanying material was explicity critical of BSA policies. BSA saw this as reneging on the deal and yanked their recogition. In any event, maybe it's time for CoG to revisit the issue with BSA.

In a PM to me, Gonzo has requested that I apologize for implying that he was deliberately making a falsehood about the "list of accepted religions". I certainly never intended anyone to think that he was being untrustworthy in any way; I simply wanted to clarify the issue for other readers. I have no doubt at all that Gonzo is a terrific Scouter and lives by the Scout Law. I hope that he will be able to correct my posting errors (and I will make them) with the tact that I was unable to achieve. -trevorum

From a strictly theological viewpoint and historical perspective (and I apologize if I offend anyone), I don't see a whole lot of difference between Scientology and LDS. However, Scientology is clearly set up as a pyramid scheme which does not seem to be the case in LDS. Scientology also lacks the integrated system of ethics which is a necessary component of any religion (as defined by those pesky anthropologists).

Dan, My understanding is that the CoG was denied membership on the committee because of the so called "Rule of 25", which stipulates that a faith organization must be the chartering partner of at least 25 units nationwide to qualify for membership on the committee. Now, whether this was a clever way of excluding pagans or was a reasonable way to limit the effective size of the commitee to a manageable number is debateable. There is currently some confusion and debate within the commitee as to whether the Rule applies to membership within the sanctum, recognition of an religious awards program, or both. Because there is no secretary taking meeting minutes and no archive of past decisions, the situation currently looks open to review. I'll try keep you posted as things slooooowly unfold.

Gonzo, I think perhaps we may be talking about two different things. The BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee does indeed pass judgement on whether or not a given institution is an appropriate Chartering Organization. I'm not aware of any applicants who have been turned down, but concievably there might be some religious fringe sect that say, glorifies violence, that might be denied as a potential sponsor of a unit. On the other hand, there is no list of acceptable faiths for individual membership. Any person is welcome to join, regardless of faith, as long as that person professes a belief in (a) god(s). But note that "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God" This effectively means that all beliefs are acceptable. I am aware that this makes some people uncomortable, knowing that they may be rubbing elbows with pagans (sorry, Dan). But that's the way it is.

Gonzo said, "... BSA has a list of 'acceptable' religions" THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. BSA has no list of acceptable religions. BSA does not define what constitutes the practice of religion. It is true that some religions have developed programs for youth study and BSA has approved some of these medals for uniform wear, but this does not constitute any list of 'acceptable' religions. Please do not spread this spurious misinformation. All religious faiths are equally accepted by BSA. Period.

John, yeah, I think most of us agree that the LDS threat is a big reason why the DRP remains a condition of national membership, despite all of the legal hassles for BSA, bad press, and loss of school and governmental chartering partners. Few would use the term "blackmail", but it certainly appears to be an implied threat by LDS. But if that happened, would it be so bad? All those LDS fellows would still be scouting, just not in the BSA brand. I don't think that LDS would make drastic changes in the program - after all it's a proven program - maybe they'd tinker with the emblems and uniform, a new oath, rename the ranks, that sort of thing. But they'd still be scouts - just LDS scouts. ("A rose by any other name ..."). BSA membership would drop of course, but not much would be different for active units and for scouts. We'd still go camping, sell popcorn, do service projects, and have Courts of Honor. Maybe we'd have fewer executives. And, maybe those other kids I mentioned, the ones who can't join today because of their family's beliefs, maybe some of those kids would join Scouting and get to join in Baden Powell's great adventure. I interpret your final logic statement to mean that Scouts need a sense of awe and reverence for the numinous. I agree.

All ancient peoples were originally polytheistic, including the Hebrews. Sometimes the shift to monotheism was permanent, as among the Hebrews (and later in Arabia) and sometimes it was reversed, as happened in Egypt. As I said, some sects do claim that Allah is not the same diety as Jehovah/Adonai and they certainly have the right to that belief. Nonetheless, most theological scholars will disagree.

2Eagle, I believe that the overwhelming majority of theological scholars worldwide will disagree with you and say that the Jewish god (YHWH or Adonai), the Christian god (Jehovah) and the Islamic god (Allah) are all the same diety. All three faiths accept the Old Testament as divine - which is why followers are collectively referred to as "people of the book". Some sects and denominations with each faith do not want to recognize the historical and theological linkages, but that doesn't change the fact.

LongHaul, Remember that BSA is "strictly non-sectarian". This means that various members are free to believe in different gods. This means that not everyone believes in your god. The gods of a Hindu scout are not the same as those of a pagan Scout and are different from that of a Jewish Scout. While the God of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic Old Testament demands obedience from humans, not all gods demand obedience. Some gods are vastly indifferent to human affairs. In these cases, one's "Duty to God" is a meaningless phrase, as packsaddle has pointed out. Dropping the DRP as a condition of national membership would not require changing the Oath or Law or any aspect of the current program. Scouts belonging to traditional faiths would continue interpreting "Duty to God" as before; scouts in non-traditional faiths would do the same. Scouts with no faith could choose to join (and be exposed to Scouting's religious elements - like Scout's Own services on Sunday campouts, invocations, etc.) or not join. I personally know many atheists. Without exception these are fine folks, imvolved in the community, good citizens, moral and trustworthy. They simply reject supernaturalism and ancient mythology. Their kids are involved in soccer, band, little league, girl scouts, FFF, and other groups, but not Scouting. And I think that's a shame. Scouting has so much to offer ALL kids. We should reach out to these kids instead of smugly turning our backs.

Yeah, I misunderstood the gravitas of the situation also. I stand by my belief that everyone deserves a break now and then, but this case sounds like an uneven playing field.

I'll never forget the hungry wail that arose from the Dragon Patrol campsite early one Saturday morning: "ME? OH NO! I thought YOU were the grubmaster this month!"

DugNevius nailed this one right out of the gate. IMHO, this stuff is biologically programmed into males and one sees it in all kinds of social animals. Layered on top of that of course is the garbage that passes for popular culture these days. As parents and Scout leaders, our job is to set and enforce limits for unacceptable behaviors while understanding that males behave differently than females.