SR540Beaver

Hunt, I fear that you are correct concerning the involvement of the CO. Evidently, the involvement is greater in some parts of the country than others. But from what I can tell from talking to scouters across the land, their CO is usually AWOL. I think the units work the hardest at keeping a relationship alive. I know that was true when we were Cubs. I was CC for the Pack and I had to go to the COR's house each time we needed an adult application signed. This lady had been a leader in the Pack at one time, but her sons decided they were not interested. Once that happened, we never saw her at committee meetings or anything else. The pastor was an Eagle Scout and proud to have a Pack at his church, but the only time we could involve him was when we made an appointment to get his signature on the recharter paperwork once a year. If we were lucky, we could get him to say the prayer at Blue and Gold. He did always make it a point to tell us how much he appreciated us. We got to use some class rooms in the annex behind the church for our den meetings. Pack meetings were held in the auditoriums of several elementary schools that we rotated between. The church was never too keen on allowing us to use the main facilities other than grudgingly let us use it for Blue and Gold. We always reached out to them, but they seldom wanted much to do with us. Fast forward to now and our Troop at a different CO. Our troop has been there for 40 years. We have over 60 boys on our roster and we are one of the largest Troops in our district. We have a large basement room that is "ours" although it is used by the church for Sunday School. We have access to a number of other rooms in the basement that we use for patrol meetings and parents. We do a number of service projects for our CO each year. We do have a relationship with them, but I'd characterize it as weak. Again, the relationship is due to us reaching out to them rather than the other way around. The only time we hear from them is when they think the boys have gotten loose in the church. That doesn't happen as there are two staircases going up from the basement and there are adults in the hallway at all times. There are folks who would like to take our room. We have two very nice trailers chained to a light pole in very plain view of a major street. There are folks in the church who want us to park them in the deepest darkest part of the back parking lot behind the building and out of sight. Even with what I've described in both instances, I'd say we have one of the best relationships with any of the CO's around. I've also been down the route of the "Friends of Troop XXX". The main problem with that is providing a consistent, adequate and safe meeting space. A unit can be chartered to a group of people, but where are they going to meet?

Ed: "Which of these scenarios teaches planning, discipline and leadership?" Ed, our boys have weekly patrol meetings where they take care of patrol business, plan their activities, do their menu and roster, etc. They occasionally have outside patrol meetings to take care of things that can't be handled in their patrol meeting during troop meetings. They camp in their own patrol site and do their own cooking and KP on each monthly outing. They are quite accustomed to planning, discipline and leadership because it is part of the weekly, monthly and annual ongoing process. While I maintain that I have absolutely nothing against patrol cooking at summer camp, I just don't buy the argument that it is goingto provide something to the patrol that they are not already getting each week at meetings and each month on outings. Alowing them to focus on FUN and a little advancement while at summer camp instead of cooking three meals a day and doing KP is not that bad of a thing. Gonzo: "It wasn't that I earned a bazillion badges (I didn't), I just had fun, and I earned SOME badges." Gonzo, that kind of makes my point. Most boys go to summer camp to have FUN. They still do it within the troop/patrol structure, but they want it to be different than the same old, same old of a monthly outing. They want it to be a scouting vacation and a little more carefree. Bottom line again.....there is room on both sides of the aisle. I have no problem if a camp uses patrol cooking or dining hall cooking. Different strokes for different folks. One is not worse than the other and one is not better than the other. If your boys want dining hall cooking because the adults cook for them on campouts, you've got a problem in your troop. If you want your boys to cook at camp because you think it is going to build patrol spirit, then something must be missing in your regular program. Summer camp should be fun and fun can be had either way you go. One additional note. Many modern day dining halls are more than a dining hall and kitchen. Many also house the medical facility, offices and trading post under one roof. One camp we go to even has an indoor climbing wall that can be used in bad weather. They do a climbing race between troops during lunch. The outside of the building is rock and has been designed for climbing as well.

"So I think Beav might have hit the nail on the head, when the Scouts opt for the mess hall over doing the cooking and clean up. Lets be honest how many Scouts really want to spend time washing up?" Part of my point isn't just whether or not a boy wants to participate in clean up. They are boys, the short answer is no. Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing. They want it to be the cherry on top. That means getting to do scouting activities without a lot of the additional busy work. How does going to a summer camp that has tents already set up on platforms and a dining hall make them worse scouts? It doesn't.

Kudu, Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 2007. I would find it hard to believe that an innovator like Baden-Powell would expect American Scouting in 2007 to be run exactly as he did it in Britian in 1907. Maybe, but I doubt it. If you want to operate that way, there is nothing stopping you and the "BPUSA" from doing so. BTW, I took your suggestion of calling their toll free number to ask them some questions. The number is disconnected and they have no website. It appears that the First Tarrant Group in Fort Worth, TX is the only Baden Powell troop in the US according to Google searches and any foreign BP sites I can find. First Tarrant has not updated their website since 2002, so I'm not even sure how viable they are. I thought you were a BP commisioner and would know their status.

"Until it's interpreted to mean two college aged adults can't go to a movie together even if their behavior in the crew is exemplary, their morals impeccable, and their parents and church approve." They can go to a movie anytime they want as boyfiend and girlfriend. What they can't do according to BSA's YP guidelines is date and be members of Venturing if one is registered as an adult and one is registered as a youth.

"My hope is that I can remain relevant and not allow myself to become one of them "In my day.." types." Wait a minute, didn't you just do that?

Beavah, No, it isn't all about rules and authority. Yes, it is about service, and kindness, and doing the right thing. That being said, please tell me how encouarging youth members to overlook the rules and authority and to treat them as some sort of mere guidelines to conveniently pick and choose from is serving them or doing the right thing? I'm pretty sure you know the mission of the BSA. It is, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." I'm also sure you know the vision of the BSA. It is: "Offer young people responsible fun and adventure; Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law; Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership; Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program." I won't bother to post the Oath and Law because I know you can quote them from memory. It has become obvious that you have issues with rules and authority and see them as impeding a good program and allowing you to provide service, kindness and doing the right thing. You seem to not find any rule unworthy of being broken. The "rules" of the Oath and Law are part and parcel of the mission and vision of BSA to instill values and help youth learn to make ethical and moral choices over a lifetime and become good citizens. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I for one wish you would quit encouraging youth members to flaunt the YP policies of the program based on a discussion over the phone. It is not "official" as you stated. Jenn is better off following what she can read in black and white from the BSA's website or printed material than taking your word for it. Encouraging registered adults to do their own thing is one thing, doing it with the youth is something entirely different. With all due respect, you are wrong on this one.

Having worked with three troops, I can honestly say I've never encountered a patrol who wanted to do patrol cooking at summer camp. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it this way. In researching summer camps, I've seen camps that are dining hall only, patrol cooking only, a combination of both or a choice between the two. As I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with patrol cooking at summer camp. however, I'm not sure I buy the arguments for it as strengthening the patrol. The patrols in out troop have weekly patrol meetings each week at the troop meeting. Periodically they have outside patrols meetings when they feel a need. They always camp as a patrol within their own seperate site and do all of their own cooking and KP. Heck, one of our troop traditions is the annual turkey cookout in November where we dig a 30 foot long, 3 foot wide and 3 foot deep ditch and build and feed a fire from midnight to 6 AM. Each patrol has to prepare their own turkey and all the fixin's for their patrol and family members who come out to camp on Saturday afternoon. They get plenty of patrol cooking experience thruout the year and are not looking for more during summer camp. They would rather focus on having fun at camp and making it a different experience than what they do every other month of the year. Doing the dining hall thing is part of what they enjoy about summer camp.

In addition.....if you actually take the online Venturing Youth Protection training test, you come across questions 22 and 23 of 25. Question 22 is: An adult and youth member can date as long as the youth member is 18 years of age or older. The correct answer is: False Question 23 of 25 is: Two youth members who are dating can continue after one of them becomes 21 and registers as an adult member. The correct answer is: False

I was taking a look at the online Venturing Youth Protection training and clicked on the FAQ link towards the bottom right. The second question in the FAQ asks: Q. In a coed crew, is it permissible to allow a 21 year old male to date an 18 year old female? A. When an adult leader of any age is dating a youth member, it is considered fraternization. As presented in Personal Safety Guidelines for Venture Leaders, registered adult leaders cannot maintain a dating relationship with registered youth members. Regardless of what Mr. Holmes has allegedly said over the phone, the written information from the BSA states something entirely different. Jens, I'd stick with written information from the BSA website over hearsay. That is the safest and most prudent approach.

Hmmmmm, perhaps OGE should ring Mr. Holmes up and provide him with the Venturing Youth Protection guidelines from national's website so he can see the written policy. It is kind of scary that the guy who is supposed to be in charge of something doesn't even know the policies of his own program. Of course if I recall in the sod surfing incident, the poster claimed that the DE told the unit that if they didn't call it a unit activity, they could do what they wanted.

mreep, Welcome to the campfire! I am familar with this document and our troop is looking at utilizing it in some form or fashion this next year to help us take an organized approach with our new scouts. We had 24 new scouts in 2006 and it looks like we could have that many again this year. As one of the three ASM's who work with new scouts in our troop, it was quite a chore trying to keep up with who did what when and keeping it all straight. We will use it more as a guide than anything else. We had two patrols of new boys and each patrol had two Troop Guides. We will continue to have the new boys learn under their Troop Guides and other scouts we will utilize for specific things, but at least this will give us the ability to have a structured and planned approach. To my knowledge, the document has not been updated. It is still usable though.

.....or keep the council liquid.

Venividi, It is obvious that you have accepted the brainwashing by the MSM. The plan is moving along as designed.

Kudu, Taking your kids to a "Merit Badge Factory Summer Camp" is kind of like taking your kid to the local megaplex theater. A little guidance and supervision in choices made is a good thing. Checking on the quality of the choice made is also a good thing. Good scouter"ing" is akin to good parenting. Our boys make the decision on which camp they go to. The SM has veto power if he believes the camp can not deliver the quality we desire for the troop. I once had a very small and very young troop wanting to select a summer camp simply because they offered the Golf MB and they thought that was cool. The camp was rather lacking in many other aspects. Many troops simply don't have the resources available to them to put on their own show. I've read your posts on this topic before and you are more than aware of the logistics involved in pulling something like that off. If you can do it, GREAT. If you can't, you do the next best thing. Summer camp as it exists today has evolved out of a supply and demand need. Some camps do it better than others and some units exercise control over how it is utilized better than others. If summer camp were a bad thing or were not meeting the needs of units, they would die away.

Beavah, In the past, you've accused a number of us of creating strawman arguments when discussing your advocating tweaks and adaptations to the program. This situation falls right in line with our use of "strawman" arguments. Had one of us brought this real life issue up you would have shrugged it off as an out of left field exception. You are right, BSA doesn't get to decide age law. They do however ge to set policy for their registered leaders and the interaction they have with youth members. Thems the breaks. Many companies don't allow married couples to work for them and/or have rules concerning management dating subordinates.....and they are grown adults. No one is trying to scare Jenn away. Heck, we all want to recruit as many youth and adults as we can. We do however want her to be aware of BSA policy and the problem that ignoring it could cause.

I agree with taking this to the Council SE. The CO agrees to utilize the BSA's programs and policies except where some latitude is given such as further restrictions on membership. The CO does not get to override BSA YP guidelines when it feels like it. According to YP training, violations are supposed to be communicated to the SE. Since this falls under YP, what the SE says will matter a whole lot more than what a CO thinks is common sense.

Let me tell you what bothers me about this story. A few weeks back, several experienced guys go up Mt. Hood in winter to do a fast and light ascent. They get caught by bad weather. The search and rescue is all over the news 24 hours a day. They all die and two bodies still have not been recovered. This lady has been missing since December 6th and the search was called off a couple of weeks ago. Thank goodness she was found and saved.....but why wasn't this a story like the moutaineers? Was it because they were doing something exciting and extreme instead of mundane like camping? The first I heard of it was yesterday after the guys stumbled across her.

Kevin, Ah, another Last Frontier Council scouter from the great Sooner District. Welcome to the forums!!!

E, T21 is just a new scout program like all the summer camps have. T=Tenderfoor, 2=2nd Class and 1=1st Class. Around here, they are often called Trail to Eagle or some such name. The difference in Lisa's case is that her council doesn't do summer camp and has opted this year to at least do a short new scout encampment. Summer camp lite.

Lisa, Our SM never goes to summer camp for a full week. This last summer he and I split the cost of a week and I went the first half of the week and he went the second half. We have an ASM who serves as "summer camp SM" each year. The SM points boys to the acting SM if they come to him for anything at summer camp. This is the one campout of the year that he gets to relax and really enjoy himself. This allows our SM to use his vacation time to take crews on high adventure. It also allows ASM's a chance at sitting in the big chair. Not only should an SM be in charge of the program for the boys, he should be training his eventual replacment too. WE had 20 new scouts this past year and every single one of them came to summer camp. I really believe that if we had gone cross country, only about half would have come to camp. While not impossible and depending on the boy, taking a trip across the country for a new scout is a huge deal and might keep them from going. So much is accomplished in the T21 type programs and I think studies have shown that boys who go to summer camp their first year tend to stay in scouting longer. I'd really look at finding someone to take them to camp closer to home.

Rather than make a boy a JASM, I'd much prefer they become Instructors or Troop Guides.

E, As you may recall, I staffed this past fall. I went thru WB in the fall of 2003. When I went thru, the briding was done early in day one. It seems like it was almost immediately after the assembly on Gilwell field. If I recall correctly, the thinking was that the Cub side was getting short shrift and needed to be expanded on. The participants now spend half of the first day as Cubs and do the bridging at the end of the B&G. The B&G is lunch. Our CD put a ton of emphasis on recruiting Cub leaders. The thinking is that they have been around less time and have not had as much of a chance to learn the leadership ropes. It was an effort to get them on board long term in scouting and to help combat Packs having to reinvent the wheel every few years. Stronger Cubbing means stronger Scouting.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong since it was before my time. My understanding was that in the old course, you actually had to be invited to attend in many councils. There wasn't always an open sign-up like there is today. So, not only was the staff a "good old boys" club, so was getting to attend.

Pete, When you serve on staff, you begin attending staff development meetings about 9 months out prior to the course. During that time, you will see each presentation presented at those meetings. An old WB'er who has not been a participant in the new course will in effect see the whole course prior to serving on staff. As for the other elements such as working a ticket, networking, making new friends and bonding, they have done that on their course and thruout their tenure as scouters. Other than that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with retaking the course. Some just find it insulting to be told that they must give up the beads they earned and re-earn them in order to staff just because the ciriculum has changed. They'll see it during staff development.