SR540Beaver

Ed, I don't mean to be rude.....but after 8 pages and 119 posts, have you not figured out that the supporters of ID want it taught in science class? Find me one case from anywhere around the country where ID supporters want ID taught in history or philosophy class. I think you are stirring the pot just to stir the pot since you keep throwing in things that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The ID approach was designed by religious/political groups as a specific counter to evolution....which is taught in science class. Evolution is not taught in philosophy or history class. That is the point. That is the topic.

Check into the Double H High Adventure Base in New Mexico as an alternative. You should be able to get info for it thru Philmont.

Simple, it is not science.

Ed, Why on Earth would you want your son's auto mechanics shop teacher introducing sewing during the course of the year when they are supposed to be learning alternators? Or your son's football coach introducing synchronized swimming? One has nothing to do with the other.

Scoutndad, Words, words, words. So many to pick from and half the time I still can't pick the right ones to communicate with! Here is what I said: The whole case for ID is that it is not religion, but an alternate "scientific" theory that should be taught along side evolution in public school classrooms. Here is what I meant to say: The whole case MADE for ID is that it is not religion, but an alternate "scientific" theory that should be taught along side evolution in public school classrooms.....WHILE IN FACT, IT IS RELIGION. You are right, the judge had no other choice but to decide the way he did. I think the problem for ID is that the way it was presented before that judge will be the only way it can be presented before other judges in the future. The outcome will most likely be the same. It is the whole pig/silk gown thing.

Scoutndad, With all due respect, I did not take Pack's comment out of context. I cut and pasted the quote exactly as he posted it. You have taken it out of context and read into it something that is not there. Pack's original post did not mention or allude to religion or faith. It referred to ID and science. The whole case for ID is that it is not religion, but an alternate "scientific" theory that should be taught along side evolution in public school classrooms. You can dress a pig in a sik gown, but at the ned of the day, it is still a pig. Don't get me wrong, I believe that God is THE creator. I believe it with all of my heart and soul. But it is a belief born out of faith. I can do nothing to prove it. Science attempts to prove things thru a methodolgy and continues to refine itself as new discoveries are made. ID IS religion and evolution is science. They are apples and oranges, home ec and auto mechanics. Both have their place, just not together. By arguing that ID has no place in the science classroom, that is not a rejection of God being the creator or religion in general.

Packsaddle said, "In contrast, ID has no such observational or experimental basis and, in fact, depends on ignorance for its existence. It has nothing in common with science." Scoutndad heard, "Even worse than trying to one up each other is stating that religious beliefs are based on ignorance..." Therein lies the problem. Pack said nothing of religion. He was speaking to the "science" of ID. Those who support ID claim that it is science, but when it is criticized, they say the criticism is an attack on religion. So, which is ID......science OR religion? That is what the whole court case addressed. It was religion dressed up in science jargon. The religious beliefs of the origin has its place in a child's education, just not in the public school science class. I don't want my son learning how to sew in an auto mechanics shop class. He needs to learn sewing in home economics.

I refuse to play on the grounds that I'll get my hiney whipped! Where do you guys (who obviously have way too much time on your hands) dig up this kind of information?

Again, I'm sure it is one of those things where you'd have to be there to understand how it happened. The news video said the leader was about 15 feet away. Even with the weight of a Leatherman, the knife had to be "thrown" or flung with enough force to get that far and pierce bone 1.5 inches. I believe they said the leader tossed the knife to catch the scout who tripped. A toss wouldn't have sufficient force to do that kind of damage. It was thrown. Maybe the leader had had too many Starbuck's that day and was jumpy. I still stand by my claim that Utah is the Bermuda Triangle of Scouting.

My scout got plenty of non-scouting goodies, but also some new gear. You'd think he was just about geared out since he gets stuff for every Christmas and birthday. He is going to Northern Tier this summer, so we replaced his old poncho with a very nice set of Red Ledge rain gear. He also got the short Thermarest Z-Rest since it is light weight and you don't have to roll the air out of it each morning. Beyond that, I can't think of anything else he actually "needs" in the way of gear. We all had a great Christmas.

Brent, Christmas became a secular and commercialized holiday long before I was born almost 50 years ago. The true meaning of Christmas was taken out of Christmas long before the current "war on Christmas". Heck, Henry Ford claimed there was a war on Christmas in the early 1920's. Back then he blamed the Jews for it. Does it really matter if stores say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas? I remember this happening when I was a kid some 40 years or more ago. People pop a gasket over the school break being called a Winter Break. So what? Does that interfere with celebrating the birth of Christ for Christians? If so, I can't see how. It has never stopped me. Does having a Holiday party instead of a Christmas party at school interfere with celebrating the birth of Christ for Christians? If so, I can't see how. My experience is that kids like a party no matter what it is called. If it were a "Christmas" party, it would most likely revolve around the secular trappings of Christmas with a visit from Santa and singing songs like Rudolph the Red-nosed Raindeer instead of reading passages from the book of Luke and singing Silent Night and other hymns. Actually, if there were to be a real war on Christmas, it should be the Christians trying to take the commercialization and secularization out of Christmas. Getting bent out of shape for a business saying Happy Holidays to appeal to the broadest range of customers is really silly in a capitalist society. It is a business decision, not an organized movement by the godless liberal hordes that Fox, O'Reilly, Hannity and Gibson want to make it out to be. They are looking to sell books and garner ratings. They complain about it not being covered by the rest of the media.....hello, it isn't a story. Don't be snookered by these guys. They may say the are "looking out for you", but they are really looking out for their pocketbooks. Let me close with a question for you. If you were to lose your marriage license in a flood or fire and/or lose your wedding ring, would your marriage lose meaning and would you all of a sudden fall out of love with your wife? Why should a school calling the break a Winter Break or a store saying Happy Holidays be taking anything away from you Christmas celebration? You seem to be a passionate man, I find it hard to belive that you would hang your beliefs on superficial symbols. In the final analysis, those things don't amount to a hill of beans. Your faith and what you believe and teach your children do. If Christmas is really under attack like Ford also believed almost 100 years ago, I have a feeling it will continue to weather the storm as always.

Ed, Which goes right back to what Rooster said about how we can not know what is in another's heart. Only God can do that. Also, as we said, works are the fruit of salvation. If a guy is a hit man for the mob, his works say something totally different than professing Christ. I honestly didn't follow the Tookie story much. I do know that his crimes were about 25 years ago. A lot could have happened in those 25 years. While I understand that he always claimed to be innocent, he also did a lot of work discouraging the gang lifestyle that he had lived earlier. That would be a good work. Bottom line is God is God and men are men and his mind and ours are quite different. A sin is a sin is a sin in God's eyes while man puts degree on sin or crime. Obviously a murder is worse than stealing a CD in man's eyes. To God it is stealing. Nothing we can do can gain our salvation except accepting Jesus as Lod and Savior.....regardless of who we are or what we've done. God set up the rules and that is them.

Ed, With all due respect, I've been a Christian for 41 years, I have a bachelors degree in Religion and made it about halfway thru a masters in Religious Education, spent time in the ministry, taught many years of Sunday School, preached on foreign mission trips and am an ordained Deacon. I'm fairly well versed in what the Bible says. While works are the evidence of our Salvation, they in no way play a part in becoming or being saved. You might want to re-read some passages. It is hard for us as humans to understand the simplicity of God's grace, but it is there in plain black and white.

I'm not familiar with MYSPACE and the internet filter here at work won't let me get there. It sounds lot like XANGA. My son and just about everyone he knows has a XANGA page. I take a look at his occasionally. He know what he can and can't put on there and he has not let me down yet. I have found some posts from friends that I didn't approve of and had him remove them. Cell phones. I don't want o go back to being without one. That being said, I want it to make and recieve calls. I don't need to take pictures, watch videos, play games, listen to music, access the internet, text message, etc. I just want to talk.

Well....YEE-HAW to Chehaw!!!

Sue, I'm a pretty big ol boy and fairly slow. If you could get me off my feet, pinning would be a cinch.

Festivus was a holiday invented by George's dad on the Seinfeld comedy. Do a Google on it to learn about it. It is funny.

Ed, Ummmmm...actually Rooster's posts between Gern and yours supports Gern. God's grace is a gift that is given and can not be earned by any action other than accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Bible is quite clear that works do not save us. We are saved solely by grace thru faith. Works are a byproduct of Salvation, not vice versa. Look it up. I think Gern understood. God desires all men to come to Him, but not all men will. Anyone can be saved, regardless of their past actions. That does not negate the punishment for their crimes in life, but it does get them to Heaven according to the Bible. As Rooster said, works are the fruit of faith.

I just saw this on the internet and came here to post it when I saw Kahuna had scooped me. It was a leader who flung the knife to catch a scout who had tripped. When I first read it, I wondered why he threw it so hard it would penetrate someone's skull 1.5 inches??? Why not drop the knife. Hindsight is 20/20 and I guess you'd have to be there to know the whole story. Guess where it happened? Utah. Is Utah like the Bermuda Triangle of Scouting?

Barry, I'm sure we will see each other on the trail. Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Lets all gather around the aluminum pole and begin the annual airing of greviences. A Festivus for the rest of us!

Wonderful news!!! The war ends in less than 48 hours!

E, As always, wise and wonderful words. Funny, I remember growing up as a Southern Baptist and praying for the Jews AND Catholics to see the light! Have a Joyous Christmas brother!!!

Ask your Committee Chair. Each year when the unit recharters, the CC has to get the IH's signature on the paper work. Also, for every adult registration turned in (like yours), the COR has to sign it. Any registered adult in your unit should be able to tell you who the COR and IH is. With all due respect, you should know who they are.

VentureScoutNY, Bless you! You might give CajunCody a shout thru this link: http://www.scouter.com/members/viewPublicProfile.asp?userID=29420 If I recall, she has put out a call in the past looking for uniforms for the less fortunate in her Pack. She might have some Webelos who could put your scout pants to good use.