SMT224

About a year ago the Troop purchased a Dutch Oven for each of our 5 Patrols. We encourage them to make as many meals as possible in the DO, and they usually do Saturday breakfast and dinner, and sometimes cake. they have cranked out some really good meals. We marked all the DO's with fire resistant paint so everyone knows which DO belongs to which Patrol. However, the main problem for the Scouts is cleaning the DO. We instruct them to get water in the DO as soon as they are done eating, and let it soak for 30 minutes to an hour, scrape out the crud with a plastic scraper, add more water, heat on the stove or fire, scrape it clean and rinse. Then they put back on heat and oil it. This works good if they do it, but sometimes a DO is put away wet or even barely cleaned. Then it has to be cleaned after we get back from camping, and takes a lot more work as it is not only cruddy, but has some rust too. We went winter camping in January and it was pretty cold, never getting above 20F. It was very hard to clean anything at camp as everything was frozen. For some reason the DO's were just stored after that camping trip and the QM didn't end up inspecting them. We did cabin camping in February, and took a hike in March - neither outing required us to touch the DO's. So you can imagine what we found when we pulled the things out to prepare for our April camping trip! Yow! Needless to say, the Scouts had a real wake up call as to what happens when you don't take care of a DO! We had the Patrols clean them the best we could in the church kitchen, but many of them were still very rusty. So on our April camping trip we re-seasoned them on the camp stove with multiple oiling, scraping, and heating's. They are now fine - it just took a lot of work! This turned out to be one of those unplanned "controlled failures" that has made the Scouts very cognizant of how important it is to take good care of their DO, and how much less work it is to do routine cleaning rather than letting the thing get rusty. They didn't need to be asked to clean their DO's on the May camping trip, and they are now stored properly, well oiled, and ready for our June camping trip. What this taught me is much abuse a DO can take and still be brought back to life with the re-seasoning techniques others have discussed here. So, Scoutfish, the message is, there is hope, always!

Hey there ghayes! Did you go?? How was it? I'm really curious about the firebuilding competition without fire... what was that like?? Thanks!

Me thinks you correct moosetracker. Here we are, tossing another log on the fire, long after the OP has crawled in to her tent. Nothing like beating a dead horse to death. :-)

So, nwasness... have the voices around this virtual campfire addressed your query? Did you find another Troop? What say ye now?

A couple more thoughts on this issue... 1. nwasness - you should know that it's ok to move to another Troop. We've seen it happen several times - either a Scout comes from another Troop and joins ours, or a Scout & his parents do not like our way of doing things and they leave. It's ok. If a parent comes to me and starts in on dislikes of what our Troop does and how we do it, the stock answer is "find another Troop". It's not a bad thing, just finding the best fit for both Scout & parent. 2. Having seen both male and female ASM and supporting Committee members in action, I can tell you that a trained leader is a trained leader. As such, that leader, regardless of the relationship with a particular Scout, will treat all Scouts the same. From watching how Scouts interact with adult leaders, it appears that they see all adults pretty much the same - sorta like how the adults appeared in the old Peanuts cartoons... just big bodies that said, "blah, blah, blah..." 3. Having adult female leaders working with Boy Scouts (or male adult leaders working with Girl Scouts) is completely different than having boys and girls of similar ages together on a camping trip. Apples & oranges - or more like apples & eggs! Very different. My experience: Female leaders work, boys and girls camping together does not work.

When our Scouts started a new Patrol, I printed out patches from these two non-BSA companies: -- ClassB, http://store.classb.com/patches -- Patch town, http://www.patchtown.com/boyscoutpatr.html They picked out several patches they liked and after much discussion decided on a name and patch they liked. BTW, they are the "Dancing Banana Patrol" (http://www.patchtown.com/dancingbanan.html), and do this dance where they are all bananas and peel themselves and then bash into each other. It's actually not as strange as it sounds - very wholesome and no clothing is removed.

Wow. I'm glad our CO has no such policy. While we currently have no female ASM, we have in the past, and they've brought an excellent skill set to the Scouts - one that the male ASM did not have. To make such a restriction seems to me to miss out on valuable knowledge, skills, and abilities they otherwise would not have. I see no negative influence they have had on the Scouts - quite the opposite in fact. I would highly recommend you find another Troop - this CO has some real fear of women it would seem to me - would they be a bad influence on the Scouts, or just the old guys in the Troop. What are they so afraid of? And a separate hotel? That is just too much. Not that we have ever used a hotel - we camp! This discussion really makes me wonder about this... "Charter organizations can be more restrictive in who they want as a leader for any reason." Really? Really!? How far can this go? Any reason at all? Race, creed, or religion? Are their Troops that restrict leadership by religion? How about race? What about political party?

Thanks for all the responses! Sounds like it might be a fun campy film knowing that is it has some reality issues. If it comes up on Netflix I might grab it just so the Scouts can find all the mistakes and have a good laugh. But who knows we might like it! Thanks for the suggestions on summer camp - but no worries there, we have 99% attendance this year, only one Scout not going. I thought a summer camp film might be fun to get the Scouts psyched about it. But it does make me wonder why such a film couldn't be accurate and good as well. Scout camp is a blast - the highlight of the year for most Scouts. Why do film makers feel they have to deviate from normal Scout camp activities? No fun when following the rules?

Summer camp is just around the corner, and I just saw an ad for that movie, "Scout Camp". Has anyone seen it? Any good? Is it at all like a real Boy Scout Camp? Would viewing it in Troop meeting excite Scouts about going to camp? Thanks!!

"Firebuilding competition without fire?" How??? I wouldn't want to go! And I don't think the Scouts in our Troop would want to go either. They like to go camping so they can play with fire... & knives!

Does one of those little bottles of "5-hour" or "Red Bull" meet that requirement?

Thanks OldGrey! That is very powerful. We'll have to try it! Sometimes the full Vespers is very nice, especially if parents are attending the campfire. You will have to pass out copies of the lyrics, as it's a rare Scout or Scouter that knows the whole thing - most only sing the first verse. Softly falls the light of day, As our campfire fades away. Silently, each Scout should ask Have I done my daily task? Have I kept my honor bright? Can I guiltless sleep tonight? Oh, have I done and have I dared Everything to be prepared? Listen Lord, O Listen Lord, as I whisper soft and low. Bless my Mom and bless my Dad, there is something they ought to know. I will keep my honor bright, the Oath and Law will be my guide. And Mom and Dad this you should know, deep in my heart I love you so. Quietly we join as one, Thanking God for Scouting fun, May we now go on our way. Thankful for another day. May we always love and share, Living in peace beyond compare, As Scouts may we find, Friendships true with all mankind. Quietly we now will part, Pledging ever in our heart, To strive to do our best each day, As we travel down life's way. Happiness we'll try to give, Trying a better life to live, Till all the world Be joined in love, Living in peace under skies above. Ending Blessing: May the great Master of all Scouts be with us 'til we meet again.

If it's raining.... Softly falls the rain today As our camp site floats away Silently each scout should ask Did I pack my scuba mask Did I tie my tent flaps down Learn to swim so I don't drown Have I done and Have I tried Everything to keep me dry

We pulled out some old walkie-talkies the Troop had in our storeroom and the Scouts played man-hunt with them on our camping trip this weekend. They loved it! They developed code names and tried to figure out what channel the other team was on. We adults love the game because after an evening of non-stop voices, it's suddenly very quiet around the campfire! We were working on geocaching during the day, but did not integrate into man-hunt. Adding radios was enough! Maybe next time!!

Not everyone can be a Scout. Some kids just don't like camping, or doing outdoor activities. Maybe it was fun in Cubs, but once they crossover they miss mom too much, or hate bugs, or something else. Or maybe they discover they like playing sports, or band, or other things better than Scouts. And that's just fine. Scouting is not for everyone. The worst behavioral problems I've seen in our Troop have consistently come from boys who do not want to be there. Usually their parents really want them to make Eagle or hope that participation will give them "character". If a Scout clearly doesn't want to be there, let him go. The Scouts who stay until they turn 18 (and often make Eagle) either really like camping and the outdoors, or have a have really good set of friends in the Troop. I've seen some very tight groups crossover together and stay together through out all kinds of Troop activities over the years and usually all make Eagle. Other guys age out before Eagle, but loved being in the Troop and going camping.

There is a real difference between a trained female or male Assistant Scoutmaster & a "mommy" or "daddy" who feels compelled to intervene and take care of their child (like they did in Cubs or on family camping trips). We have trained all our ASM to treat all Scouts on any Troop activity the same - no favoritism or parental intervention in any shape or form. The standard answer to a request for help is the same no matter the gender of the leader - "Go ask your PL or the SPL." On camping trips or at summer camp, adults stay as far away as possible from the Scouts and let them do all their own set up, fire making, wood gathering, cooking, camp activities and break down. And mistakes do get made, food gets burnt, and the Scouts learn without a parent hovering nearby. I have never had a problem with a female ASM, who seem delighted to have a break from her needy kid. However, I have had to speak to several fathers about doing too much for their own kids - especially helping pack up or giving them special treats on camping trips. One father is no longer welcome on activities as he cannot help himself and flies to his son's side at a moments notice. Like others have said, we strongly advise adult leaders not to work with their own kids on advancement and skill building. This seems to work quite well, and no Scouts have ever said they do not want women on camping trips. Perhaps other Troops with a "no mom" rule have so many adult leaders that they can pick & choose as to who goes on a camping trip. But we do not always have that luxury - there are many times we just need adults, regardless of gender, or there will not be a camping trip.

" If we are going to ban open toed shoes let's ban shorts, too, for the same reason - because something might happen." No. It's not the same thing. The probability of a serious injury to the foot while wearing a shoe or sandal that exposes the toes is far different that a leg injury when exposed to common trail conditions. I've worn shorts doing all kinds of outdoor activities - hiking, scrambling, rock climbing, bouldering, bushwhacking, and orienteering, and have come home or back to camp with all kinds of cuts and bruises on my legs, but have been just fine to enjoy the rest of the trip. My legs still work and can carry me A-Ok. However, speaking from personal experience, I can sincerely testify that toes smashed in to a rock, or a stick in the foot (above), is very painful and also can make getting around very difficult. A serious and painful foot injury can really ruin a trip for the injured person, and everyone else on the trip too - especially if medical help is many miles away. To me it's just not worth it. I like my toes and feet as comfortable as possible, but well protected as well. Open toe shoes are just way too much of a risk. As far as enforcement goes, the Scouts keep each other in line at summer camp and on week-end camping trips. Someone wandering around with flip-flops or bare feet will get called out and sent back to his tent - more often than not by other Scouts. They know and understand the rules - it's not a problem.

Same thing happened to me!! I was on a week-long river trip in southern Utah and put a stick right between my toes while walking around our camp in the evening in bare feet. Ouch!! And I've seen family members smash open toes when hitting a sharp rock in flip-flops. Lots of blood and wailing! The incidents above would have been completely prevented with closed toe sandals or shoes. So, yes, I'm a believer! Our summer camp has closed-toe rule, as does our Troop. Needless to say, I fully support these rules.

Sorry E61, but I really have to disagree with you on your last statement... "I don't believe that peer pressure IS EVER GOOD. Forsaking individuality takes away our greatest potential." Peer Pressure is the expectation of the group. In Scouting, the expectation of the Troop is that Scouts will follow the Scout Law on any Scout activity. The expectation is that the Scout will clean his own mess kit and do his duty according to the posted KP schedule. The expectation is that the Scout will do his best. And it's not the adult leaders that enforce these expectations, but the Scouts themselves, via peer pressure. Yes, the SPL or PL can yell at the offending Scout, but without the support of his peers - the rest of the Scouts - he would have no real authority. Adults can step in if things get out of control, but most of the time, the Scouts and the pressure they exert on their peers keeps the Troop within the Scout Law. Individuality? Ever been a chaperon on a middle school trip? How about an over-nighter? There you'll see all kinds of individuals doing whatever they feel like, along with some peer pressure to do some pretty dumb things. But very little positive peer pressure like you see in Scouting. It really depends on the group and what the expectation of that group is. With Scouting I think the expectations are very positive, and thus the peer pressure of this group is by and large positive. Of course there are exceptions, these kids are human after all, but for the most part the kind of peer pressure I see in Boy Scouts is positive and challenges the individual Scout to be a better person. For example, last night at our Troop meeting, two Scouts passed their BOR and were awarded their rank advancement during the closing - one made Star, the other Life. The Scouts applauded them and the Senior Scouts shook their hands. There was genuine positive peer pressure that flow from the Troop to these two guys, and everyone felt it. There was an expectation of advancement, and a positive peer response when these Scouts achieved it. And apathy? Nope, not a bit in that crowd.

As others have said, BSA does not prohibit female leadership. Moms are welcome to serve the Troop in any leadership capacity. When I first joined our Troop back in 99, women were absolutely banned from any leadership position. A few years later, after I had become the SM, our Treasurer retired and I suggested a mom who was a CPA and had been very active in the Cubs. Her son had recently crossed over, she was very interested in becoming an active leader, and so it seemed like a good fit. The old guys who had been with the Troop since the 50's & 60's had an absolute meltdown and refused to even consider it. So, a group of us new leaders took the issue to our Chartered Organization, who then let the old guys know that since the BSA welcomes women and there is no prohibition on female leaders, they needed to allow women as leaders in the Troop. Of course they completely ignored that, and slipped a highly unqualified old guy into the Treasurer position. These were dark times in the Troop with much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Interestingly, some of our most viscous opponents were the moms who played by the old rules - moms should help with crafts and in the kitchen, but never as real leaders. But we continued to recommend qualified moms for logical positions, and eventually they had no choice but to relent. Several of the most fervent old guys (and their very vocal wives) longing for the good old days, quit in protest and disgust when the first mom joined the Committee. Now 75% of the Committee is female and we have two excellent mom ASM who are great on camping trips. We have a new generation of Scouts and parents who have no idea what a struggle it was to get where we are today. They accept the way things are now as normal. Until the old guy regime is challenged and you survive the associated pain, there will be no change. It took us a good 5 years to get through the worst of it and move on. But as bad as it was for a while, it was entirely worth it, and we have a much better Troop now.

There's always peer pressure... Our current leadership team is really into activity participation and not only sets the example by attending themselves, but also by having a very high expectation that all other Scouts will attend as well. And we have seen excellent (95%) attendance recently. Very different from a few years ago when the leadership team planned all kinds fun activities but then didn't end up going because they were so involved in other things - sports, band, girls, etc. And the rest of the Troop followed suit, with 25%-75% attendance on activities. We also have a general no refund policy, which does make Scouts & parents stop and think before committing.

Ok Beavah, I'll give you the full medical form, all parts filled out and signed by appropriate parties. I still maintain these forms should have been done and ready, especially for a camping trip like this one. If the Troop in question went to summer camp in 2009, the forms should have been done and ready for any camping trip fall of 2009 and a good part of early 2010. Yea, sometimes medicals can take a while to get together, but my experience has shown that if a medical is required to be on a sports team, parents can get in to a doctor or clinic somewhere mighty quick. It all has to do with how important something is to the parents & the kid. If a medical is absolutely required for participation (like summer camp), people will get it done. In the case discussed in this post, it wasn't required so it wasn't done.

It really isn't that hard Beavah, at a minimum Part A will suffice for a camping trip.

Our Troop: The SPL reports to and discusses issues at PLC. The SM attends PLC, listens, and discusses issues with PLC with regard to Troop activities and Committee support. The SM then attends Committee meetings and reports on Troop activities, needs, and any PLC issues. SPL does not attend Committee meetings. Seems to work fine.

OMG! Doing a Tour Permit is not that hard! 10 to 15 minutes at most. And medical forms should be current and up-to-date at all times! My goodness! These parents and leaders need to get it together. This is a clear case of outright laziness! Kids are punished on a regular basis by parental decisions, why should this be any different? If it was not a Scout trip then it was not a Scout trip - nothing done by the boys (not Scouts) should count. If you go ahead and count and credit activities as if it were a Scout trip, then why should anyone do anything different next time? They will just say, "hey, I don't feel like doing a Tour Permit or medicals, and since it doesn't matter anyway, why should I?" The SM and parents need to realize there is a reason for doing a Tour Permit and medicals - it makes the activity a Scout activity, and sets the tone for what is done and how things are done. Most importantly, that the Scouts Law is the guide for everything on that trip or activity. If the camping trip you discuss in your post became a "family camping trip", what changed from it being a "Scout camping trip"? Most likely there was no Patrol menu planning, food buying, cooking or dinning, and likely moms or dads did most of the meal planning, purchasing, and cooking. Further, I bet more than a few beers were cracked open around the fire in the evenings (maybe this is the real reason they didn't want it to be a Scout trip!). So they went family camping and hiked around. Big deal. So what. It wasn't a Scout camping trip and no one should get any credit. Case closed.