SMT224

I just did.... remove the SPL from his position. I immediately removed him from his leadership position and suspended him from all Troop activities. A short time later, the Committee expelled him from the Troop. Once parents heard what he did, they concurred 100% and said if we had not acted as we did, they would have pulled their sons from the Troop. A number of Scouts were grateful as well, as they now feel safe knowing that the Scout Law is something we do, not just say. It's been dark days for the Troop, but sometimes the only way to find the light is to act quickly and decisively.

We always travel to a camping trip in the class A shirt, and in full class A uniform to summer camp. On the way to summer camp last year we stopped at Wendy's for lunch. We were all in full Class A uniform and looking sharp. With 30 Scouts and leaders we knew we were going to take over the place, but when we walked in, there were ~25 soldiers in field uniform from a near-by base. The soldiers acknowledged, smiled at, and nodded to our Scouts as we all stood in line waiting to order. I watched the faces of our Troop as they clearly felt pride to be in uniform. There were a few families in the restaurant, and those with young boys look at us and smiled, they knew who we were and what we represented. The few teen boys eating hamburgers looked at the Scouts with, dare I say it? Envy. Yes, it was clear that in this situation the Scouts were the cool ones, not the slackers with low pants and long t-shirts.

We actually become more active in the summer. July is a week of summer camp, and our June & August camping trips expand beyond the week-end into 3-5 day trips. We depart on Friday morning (instead of the typical school-year Friday evening) and return home on Monday or Tuesday or even Wednesday (instead of Sunday). And sure some Scouts are off on vacation and may miss a trip, but it's not that different from the school year when some will miss a camping trip due to a game or concert. As far as weather goes, while we all like the "perfect" weather of late spring and early fall, the Scouts seem to revel in surviving the extremes. I think it's an excellent learning experience to directly experience and really understand the challenges of both camping at 15F with 7 inches of snow and 103F and 80% humidity. Death is just around the corner in either case, so you'd better be careful and prepared with both the right equipment and knowledge. They come back with great stories and are proud that they not only survived but thrived, and are ready to do it again.

Sorry Lisabob & Engineer61, I just don't buy the "uniform is a deterrent" argument. I have yet to find a Scout who quits because of the uniform. Now maybe we're not as extreme as some Troops, but the SPL & ASPL are pretty good at enforcing dress codes and the Scouts quickly learn to comply. The main reason kids quit our Troop is because they discover they do not like to camp, and camping is mainly what we do - almost every month of the year in most any kind of weather. We all wear a uniform... it is the clothes we put on every day. It might be khakis and a polo, jeans & a t-shirt, a retail uniform, or a suit and tie. I see no harm in letting kids know that there can be a specific dress code for a specific situation. Welcome to the real world.

September - May: Class A (full Boy Scout uniform) June - August: Class B (Troop t-shirt and olive shorts) Any COH anytime = full Class A

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses to my post. I especially appreciate the excellent discussions on management vs leadership. I will certainly be taking this material to our Troop Leadership Training, as well as using in my discussion with those who have completed NYLT. Clearly the material presented in NYLT is only part of what maps out the leadership trail. Thanks again for your responses.

SNAFU - situation normal, all **** ed up Welcome to the real world. Yes, you are seeing the messed up part of your Council where humans and policy have let important things slip through the cracks. But that is reality everywhere - in our government, our medical system, our law enforcement system, and unfortunately in our Scouting administration as well. Where ever humans get involved you'll find absolutely wonderful things happening, and the stupidest thing possible. Every single summer camp I've been to has some things that could be a whole lot better. But things only get better by people recognizing the problem and then working to set things right. Yes, you could quite now. Walk away. But then then next person confronting the issue would have roughly experience as you have had. Whereas, if you stick to it, the knowledge you have acquired in this bad experience will ensure that you walk in to the next summer camp knowing what questions need to be asked and what situations need to be in place to avoid that chaos your Troop is now experiencing. You are clearly a conscientious and mindful person. Leaving now, because you can see that some things really are **** ed up, will not do anything to make summer camp better for the next Troop with kids that have special dietary needs. Yes, it will be hard to confront the camp on their food policy and attitudes, but someone's got to do it... why not you? And then, like others have said, find another camp that clearly meets your needs. You will be amazed and delighted to find that some camps are really very responsive to special dietary needs and provide significant support to ensure the Scouts have a great summer camp experience. Hang in there Liz - it's worth it!

For years I have been a strong supporter of NYLT. I saw excellent results from Scouts attending 2001-2005. We were unable to send Scouts for a couple years due to schedule conflicts. We sent Scouts in 2008, 2009, and again this year. However, none of these Scouts came back as charged up as in the earlier years. I initially wrote it off to different personalities of those attending, but on speaking to the Scout who just came back from the course, I'm starting to wonder if it's the Scout or the NYLT. On asking him what the NYLT course was like, he said it was mostly lectures on management techniques. He talked about some fun things they did on outpost, but seemed to have hard time putting what he learned at NYLT to use in his role as SPL in our Troop. When I asked him what he'd like to do differently in the Troop as a result of his NYLT experience, he said "nothing". I know our Troop is not that perfect. What kind of experience have others had with NYLT lately? Does it seem like it's turned into little more than management lectures? BTW, I dropped this rant into "Patrol Method" on purpose because I believe the SPL should specifically support the Patrols. And any training the SPL receives should help him focus on the Patrol Method. Not just manage the Troop.

As others have said, practice, practice, practice! We've found working it into games leads to the most enthusiasm, especially with an edible reward!! Giving the Scouts a pile of rope with the instructions to "practice knots" doesn't ever seem to accomplish much - they need some kind of end point motivation that gives them a reason to tie the knot. At one point we tried a weekly "exit knot" - we worked on one knot during the meeting, then each Scout had to tie that knot to exit the meeting and go home! PLC decided it caused too much stress and canceled it! A number of years ago, we were going to a windy beach area for camping. Since we would be setting up our tents in the sand, we made "dead men" to bury in the sand and then attach our tent tie-downs to. We reviewed the two-half-hitch knot and the taught-line knot several times and had everyone practice. After about 10 minutes most were messing around and talking. When asked, they all said they had it and knew the knots. Well, we got to the site at about 10:30 at night. It was windy and quite cool. And of course, dark. We first had to lay out the tents so we knew where to bury the dead men, as one went between two tents. Once we got them buried, the Scouts simply needed to tie their tents to the dead men rope loops sticking out of the sand and then set them up. As I walked around monitoring progress, I discovered that well over half of the Scouts not only could not tie either the two-half-hitches or the taught-line, but they had never heard of these knots in their entire life! In this "battle moment", a number of Scouts seemed to shut down and had no idea what the tent ropes might be for or how to tie any knot at all. Myself, several Scouts who kept their heads, and other adult leaders went around and helped everyone tie the necessary knots and get set up. I finally hit the sack at 1:00 am! At our debriefing after this camping trip, we had a good discussion about what it is to tie a knot once or twice at a Troop meeting, and what it is to really know how to tie a knot. I think those who choked on the camping trip came to a much better understanding of what it means to really be able to tie a knot.

"Drowning Doesnt Look Like Drowning" This is an excellent article and should be read by all having anything to do with aquatics... http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/drowning/?10981 I recommend printing a copy and passing on to summer camp aquatics directors in addition to discussing with the Scouts in your Troop prior to any aquatic activity. This kind of critical information should not be limited to adults. The other article in this series,"The Truth About Cold Water" is also very good and a sobering look at importance flotation devices... http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/cold_water?11198

Well, were back from our first swimming hole adventure, and all survived and had a great time!! We started out playing in a stream, and worked our way down to a small hole that was about 20'x30', mostly ranging in depth from a foot to 4 feet, with a couple areas that were a bit more than 5 feet deep. Nothing was over my head. We had 12 Scouts, one of whom was a beginner, the rest swimmers. No diving or jumping was allowed. We had two adults on shore at all times with throw bags and one adult in the water, as well as a Scout lookout on shore at all times. We defined where the deepest areas were and told the beginner to stay out of those areas, and then kept a close eye on him, as well as everyone else. Everyone has a buddy and stayed with their buddy. The Scouts mostly liked the slick rock shoot that carried the stream water into the pool - both sliding down it and trying to climb back up it. What we did not do was to string up ropes all over the place to define beginner vs. swimmer areas. In order to fully cordon off the two deeper areas would have required at least 8 ropes to box in the area - and it would have been beyond absurd. And considering that there were a number of other folks using the swimming hole, it would have been ludicrously inconsiderate. And further, considering the colorful nature of some of the locals sharing the hole with us, as well as the beverages they were abundantly consuming, it would have put us in a potentially conflicting situation. As it was, I believe we did fine - the Scouts were safe, they had fun, we were prepared to handle any difficulties that might arise. We shared the water with other people who enjoyed the cool water on a hot day. What more could we have done to fulfill SSD?

We run our Troop at about a rank a year. Of those that stay with the Troop for the first year, we have nearly 90% achieving Eagle. We are now having nearly 95% attendance at Troop meetings and outings. We discuss the trail to Eagle when the Scout is either out of middle school or has achieved Star. I know some consider this heresy with regard to both BSA guidance and the way many Troops are run, i.e. 1st Class in the 1st year. Sorry, but we let the guys be Scouts and do Scouting activities -- we do lots of camping and have lots of fun, and provided plenty of opportunity for advancement. But we don't make advancement the number one priority - we make outings, activities, and Scout experiences the number one activity. We let the Scout work though advancement, and get concerned if he is advancing slower than a rank a year. Of course a number of Scouts move along much faster, which is fine - they make great examples for the other Scouts.

Three choices: 1) Stay and do nothing but go along to get along. Things may be ok, but based on your description of events, things will most likely continue to escalate until someone gets seriously hurt or a serious YP event occurs. At the rate these Cubs are going, I'd hate to have to deal with these kids when they crossed over our Troop - they'd get a rude awakening when they discovered their behavior actually needs to be within the Scout Law. 2) Stay and challenge the CM behavior constructively and persistently. This will likely meet with significant resistance by the CM and his fans, and will be uncomfortable. But if you stick to your guns and implement in a friendly way and do not back down, you will likely prevail. But it will not be easy. Rather than tattling on him to the higher ups, work with them to help shape a clearly enthusiastic leader in the ways of Scouting. 3) Walk. If you are in a small community with few Cub alternatives, this may be very difficult. On the other hand, if other Cub Packs exist, this may be the best alternative. If you do have options, you might at least pay a visit and see how things feel with other Packs. Which ever option you choose, here is a nice gift for the CM - either toss it to him as you walk out the door, or give it (anonymously?) if you choose to stay. http://www.snorgtees.com/beawarning-p-1094.html?osCsid=b0374e2108d85c2b0fcd265aef05c360 Good Luck!!

I would second the recommendations to take swift & sure action on this Scout. He should be suspended immediately and then likleyexpelled. If you do not, you are putting forth a clear message that his behavior is ok. When I first became Scoutmaster, there was a Scout in the Troop who would pull all kinds of nonsense. I thought I was "given him a break" by just talking to him and believing his assurances that it would never happen again. Each new instance was worse than the last, but he was vigorously defended by his parents and anyone who complained was made to seem the problem, and he ended up seeming the victim. Finally he was caught red-handed vandalizing on a camping trip. He flat out denied doing it, and his parents refused any responsibility. He was expelled, and we paid for the damage out of Troop funds. But once he was gone, it was like the sun came out after a terrible storm. The other Scouts were much more relaxed as it turned out he was an incessant bully - something I learned only after his departure. As I looked back on it, the signs were all there, I just ignored them, hoping he had "learned his lesson", and would "clean up his act". Not! Based on the information in your post, the pattern of your problem Scout sounds very similar to what I experienced -- repeated violations of the Scout law, very aggressive and defensive parents, and concerns raised by other Scouts. Call him out on his actions! Remember, he's not the only Scout in your crew! If he's expelled or quits, so what? He and his parents may be upset, but I bet the other Scouts will be greatly relieved.

Since this happened during a Scout activity (a Court of Honor no less!), all in attendance were bound by the Scout Law. His behavior clearly fell outside the Scout Law, and he is therefore subject to Troop discipline. Apologizing to the other kids is a great first step, but the matter is hardly closed. There should be an immediate suspension from all Scout activities pending a full Board of Review. This includes Troop meetings and outings. The Scoutmaster and Troop Committee can decide on further action depending on how the Board of Review goes. You must take immediate action or the other Scouts will conclude this behavior is acceptable and should be continued.

Shortridge - Thanks for your input. I am not suggesting an abandonment of SSD rules or thoroughly inconsistent application. My thoughts are focusing on a sensible and rational application of the existing guidance.

Scoutfish - Believe me, I fully understand SSD and the rational for it's existence. I also know that we must be sensible when implementing the SSD to ensure we are not just following rules blindly. For example, in a swimming situation where all the Scouts in a group are swimmers, it is necessary to set up a non-swimmers area? Or a beginners area? I think not. And yet, per your last post, it's either all or noting - either we follow SSD fully and completely each and every time or no swimming. I understand and appreciate your conviction, but disagree with your black&white assessment of SSD implementation when it comes to a small swimming hole that is also used by the public. And especially if it's a small group of Scouts that are all swimmers. I believe we as leaders need to assess each and every situation on a case-by-case basis and do what is best for our Scouts.

In thinking through this issue as I developed my initial query, and then reading the responses, and rereading SSD, I am inclined to concur with Beavah in terms of sheer common sense. The basic reason for SSD is to ensure Scouts do not drown. If we loose sight of that basic impetus, and instead begin to see the SSD as an entity into its self, we loose sight of common sense (IMHO). While I agree with the spirit of what both shortridge & Scoutfish are saying, I truly believe I can say to my non-swimmers, "Do not go any further than an imaginary line between that rock and that tree.", and they are trustworthy enough to do what they are told. I believe such a "barrier" will become as solid and real as a rope, and will fulfill the both the spirit and intent of SSD. And since I know each and every one of them, and will be watching them, I have a high level of confidence they will be ok (are these just FLW?). To say that the only way I can instill the notion that they cannot cross a particular boundary into deeper water (which they are terrified of anyway) is to create a physical barrier does not recognize that these boys can understand the SSD concept, can be obedient, and do have a sense of self preservation. Of course they are boys, and while I trust them, I will verify.

Thanks for the point of clarification mbrigham. Based on your earlier post, I thought he had signed his own book with his own initials. But when the "scout had placed inaccurate dates and the initials of the other ASM", that is outright forgery. He clearly knew what he was doing and knew he was pulling the wool over everyone eyes. If this were a Scout in out Troop there would be an SMC, and depending on the outcome, likely a meeting with the parents. This kind of behavior falls far outside the Scout Law - especially the first point. If he lies about it, or appears to have no understanding that he did something wrong, then the consequences could be far more severe than the recension of rank. When I do SMC, I do not re-test, but I do discuss how he achieved the requirements for that rank. I ask the Scout about the requirement and what it was like to achieve it and what he learned. We talk about when he earned it and where that was - a camping trip, summer camp, or at a Troop meeting. Because I've been Scoutmaster for more than 10 years, I know the Scouts and usually remember when he achieved a particular requirement. Since the SM in your Troop is new, he can't know everything and everyone, especially if a Scout is intentionally deceiving. No doubt this incident has made him more aware of when a requirement was completed and who signed off on it. Re-testing is not necessary, but spending a few moments talking to the Scout about how, when, & where he earned the rank requirements can help ensure that he really does deserve advancement.

Thanks for all the comments & suggested guidance. Gags - DC area, NCAC. How about you? Here's a great resource: http://www.swimmingholes.org

I guess my dilemma is whether to set up the ability areas as described in the SSD training - ropes, weights, & floating markers designating non-swimmer, beginner, & swimmer area. The problem is not only are swimming holes small and used by other folks (who may find ropes and markers strung all over the place a serious infringement) but with moving water, it seems hard to mark anything. It seems better to let the ability groups know where they can go and where they can't go, and then keep an eye on the Scouts. rdclements - I'm not trying to make safety invisible (most certainly not to the Scouts), but why take over the swimming hole with ropes and markers if we as a Scouting group can come up with a way to coexist with others so everyone can enjoy the swimming hole. The point of my post is to see how others have handled a similar situation.

We will be camping at two places this summer that have an abundance of swimming holes along streams. They are usually no larger than 10-20 feet across and 1-6 feet deep. They are often used by the public. No real swimming, absolutely no diving. Mainly getting wet and cooling off. Has anyone dealt with this issue before in terms of implementation of safe swim defense? Prior to arriving at the holes I intent to have the Safe Swim Defense talk with the Scouts, establish buddy groups based on ability groups, designate lookouts and life guards, and then do establish causal & unmarked ability areas when we arrive (i.e. non-swimmers stay over there, beginners don't go past those there rocks, swimmers can go anywhere). I want this all to be as invisible to the other folks using the swimming holes as possible. Kosher in terms of GSS? Thanks!

I'm a bit amazed that the Scoutmaster didn't catch this - did he not look at the book & signatures and talk to the Scout about his advancement? But anyway, I agree that the first thing to happen is a SMC. It may well have been that the Scout didn't understand he was not supposed to sign his own book. First thing is to set him straight on that, and let him know very clearly who can sign off on a requirement. Then, go over the requirements and see if he needs more work, or if he truly earned the requirement. Unless it's absolutely clear that he did it intentionally, I would not make this a capital crime, nor would I hang him out in front of the Troop or make any of this known to the other Scouts. It could be that he is a very enthusiastic Scout and was just totally gung-ho on moving forward. If a scene is made for no reason, he could be profoundly embarrassed and quit Scouting.

12??!!! I'd totally lay off! We run our Troop at about a rank a year. We have nearly 90% achieving Eagle. We have nearly 95% attendance at Troop meetings and outings. We don't even discuss Eagle until the Scouts are either out of middle school or have achieved Star. I know this is heresy with regard to both BSA guidance and the way many Troops are run, i.e. 1st Class in the 1st year. Sorry, but we let the guys be Scouts and do Scouting activities -- we do lots of camping and have lots of fun, and provided plenty of opportunity for advancement. But we don't make advancement the number one priority - we make outings, activities, and Scout experiences the number one activity. We let the Scout work though advancement, and only get worried if he is advancing slower than a rank a year. Of course a number of Scouts move along much faster, which is fine - they make great examples for the other Scouts. But there is no way I'd get hyper about Eagle merit badges until he was 15. E61 -- I agree, let him have fun! He's still a kid! Let mom know he's got plenty of time and pushing at 12 will do nothing but discourage him. We have had many Scouts not kick in till they were 15 or 16 and make Eagle with out a problem.

On the other hand... Sometimes teen age boys appear not to be interested in anything. It's just part of the sullenness that goes with that age. If asked, and they were really being honest, they'd like nothing better than to play the X-Box 360 or PS3 24/7 and forget about absolutely everything else. So these Scouts may be just normal teenagers and act bored about everything, but will get into the merit badge when then get to the class. Or, they may be seriously uninterested in the subject matter. If you are teaching an Eagle merit badge, I'd let them come to the class anyway. If they're truly tortured, then let them go later and they can deal with the consequences. But it may turn out that they get something out of it. I'm always astounded to discover that those very bored looking teens were actually listening to me and were actually interested and remember what I said long after.