shortridge

Duct tape along the spine. The different colors and designs can also aid in identification at a glance.

Also try the American Camping Association. They blast jobs out to subscribers every two weeks.

It sounds as though you REALLY want managers with management skills. Keep in mind that what you're more likely to get for the area director jobs are program nuts, people who care far more about knots and rowing and shooting and edible plants than being in charge.

One possibility would be to run a weekend staff supervision workshop for your directors, going over topics like feedback, coaching, training, scheduling, assessing skills, discipline, documenting, etc. Think about what we teach in Scouting - it's peer leadership. In this job, they're both peers and real bosses, a role they may never have filled before. If you want experienced managers, you may have to grow them yourself.

Well, since we've gotten into politics, either of the next honorary presidents will oppose the ban. Romney thinks it's silly, too.

>> Treat them like full members of the staff. Do not segregate living quarters or off-duty activities based on CIT vs. counselor status. Everyone is "staff."

>> Do not treat them as mere gophers, water cooler-carriers or paperwork assistants. Encourage them to teach parts of a program session as their skills and interests allow.

>> Develop a CIT-counselor "career track." Recognize your counselors who began as CITs; this is especially helpful if the CD, PD or other senior staff members began as CITs. Make sure that there is some small financial incentive for first-year counselors who were also CITs.

>> Recognize their limitations. Do not thrust them into the role of teaching a merit badge class on their own, as I was. (First, it will almost always result in a negative experience for campers; second, it's against the advancement rules.)

>> Rotate them through as many jobs as possible. At my old camp, we had five weeks of Boy Scouts. Each CIT was assigned to a different program area for four of those weeks, with the fifth week spent assisting with Camp Services - kitchen, dining hall, commissary, trading post. We largely got our choices of program areas, but sometimes had to help out in an area not on our preferred list (Handicrafts was mine; I was told on Saturday that I would be teaching Basketry and Indian Lore come Monday morning).

>> Assign a senior staff mentor/guide. This would ideally be the PD, but in some cases I've seen it done by the camp commissioner or assistant program director/camp director. This person should be helping train and coach the CITs in their new roles and responsibilities.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Based on my experience, your expectations may be a little high. Your camp staff is for the most part drawn from three sources - students (HS and college), teachers and retirees. That limits your pool substantially for all positions, especially CD.

For area directors, odds are most of them *are* going to be younger, 18-22-year-olds in or just out of college. Most will not have management experience outside of Scouting. Even older teachers may not have staff management experience. So you're left with retirees. But you also have to consider that few people with families and mortgages or rents are going to be able to leave home for 2-3 months and live in tents or tiny cabins.

If you can find someone with staff management experience AND a Scouting background AND who is able to leave his or her permanent home for several months AND can recruit and hire an older, experienced cadre of area directors AND spend time during the year promoting the camp AND do this for a fraction of the salary he or she could've making elsewhere (and no benefits, I'm guessing) - well, you've got a magician on your hands.

Who was your recent CD's assistant CD, business manager, program director or commissioner? Are none of them interested?

Part of Planned Parenthood's mission, as I understand it, is to provide affordable health care, especially on reproductive issues. Part of the ACLU's mission is to defend the rights of the minority.

By that line of thinking, SP, the BSA's ban on gays rests on the fact that anti-homosexuality is a core part of Scouting's mission. Can you show me where in the Handbook or any other program publication that is written?

Without seeing the entire text of the letter, it's difficult to say much about this situation.

If there were anti-disparagement clauses in their contracts, that adds a whole 'nother dimension to it.

But journalists often call retired or former officials or employees to gather information, whether it's juicy stuff or just useful background in understanding how an unfamiliar organization works. When an organization pulls up the drawbridge and mans the battlements and refuses to answer substantive questions, that's often the only way to get information.

Every person has the right to say no to an interview, and to end the interview at any time. Presumably the BSA provided media training to these men and women during their long careers. They're all adults. I'm a bit baffled by what Irving is seeking to protect against.

What is a troop outhouse?

Is the job full-time year-round or just a summer job?

In my council, the CD is a full-time council employee with other duties year-round - program duties or working with Exploring.

But generally, the future CDs and PDs have already identified themselves through years of work on the camp staff. If you don't have a farm team of ambitious area directors waiting in the wings to vie for the job, you've got a bigger problem than not having a person at the top.

If you're looking for someone to just do that job during the summer, you'll need a teacher, grad student or someone who has summers off from their regular job. That narrows your pool considerably. Spread the word through your districts to find those great local teachers. Ask your camp staff alumni who may be in the area.

As a camp counselor, my policy was Stosh's - Mister Smith, Mister Jones, Mister Voldemort, whatever. The boys seemed to like it, and even sat up and listened a little better when addressed semi-formally, even around a picnic table.

Among my fellow staff members, nicknames ruled. We were all in this together, and teasing and joking was part of the fun and camaraderie and how we handled the job. One summer we had Top Gun-inspired handles; another, Dukes of Hazzard.

I wore all of my specific nicknames with pride; it meant I had arrived and was accepted by the older crowd on staff. I was known as Running Fish, then Chewbacca, and finally Rambo, which stuck. If someone made it clear they didn't like their nickname, folks would stop using it. We teased, but were respectful about it. And that should really be the rule of thumb.

Bacchus,

I had always assumed that there was religious instruction in LDS troops, as it's explicitly used as a component of the Aaronic priesthood training. It would thus make no sense for a non-Mormon to lead an LDS unit. Is that not the case? And if there is no religious instruction, what exactly does the church use the program for?

If only half the Scouts are active, reform the patrols around them. The paper Scouts shouldn't count. They can be added if they return.

What are your numbers?

The NSC policy refers to sexual orientation. I'm unsure how you can say it does not contradict National's policy.

As a summer camp instructor, blue cards were responsible for my signature degenerating into an utterly unintelligible scrawl in high school. We hated those little buggers.

Considering 90 percent of the Scouts who showed up to all the program sessions met all of the requirements, it would have been far simpler to type up a text document, use some sort of a merge function, flow in all the names, and print out 100 pieces of paper saying "Congratulations! Johnny Scout has completed all the requirements for Pioneering Merit Badge as of July 4, 2012, at Camp Courage. Dave Matthews, Counselor." (Even easier would have been to submit them online.) Instead, all the area directors had to find time Friday evening and sign, initial, etc., every ... stinking ... card ... before that night's leader's meeting. We usually didn't eat dinner.

Did I mention camp staff hate blue cards?

So it's basically the pre-1988 BSA policy? Women can do everything except run a Boy Scout troop?

"Worthy adults, whether members of the Church or not, may be called to serve as Scouting leaders."

How often does this happen? And what do non-Mormons say when they get the call? I'm genuinely curious ... Why would the Church call a non-member to lead, train and mold its future priests? Seems a little odd.

The important thing to realize is that you don't always have to have a uniform to "fit in." It certainly helps, but it's also fairly easy to get access simply by walking with confidence, purpose and a smile. Acting like you know what you're doing and belong there can get you past quite a few doors.

Think about a typical summer camp. If you see a man with beard stubble walking around in shorts, sneakers and a sweat-stained t-shirt, pausing to say "Hey, quit the running!" to a group of boys, are you going to stop and question him about whether he belongs there? I can't get the NCS standards file to load right now, but I believe it's now mandatory to have a system to identify campers and visitors. My old summer camp uses colored wristbands. No band, staff and leaders stop you.

SP,

That's where we strongly disagree. You and your supporters see an end to the ban as destroying or yanking up the BSA program. Have you ever stopped to consider the opposite? Public opinion is trending heavily against you. The majority of young people - future parents - are fully accepting of gay people. Keeping the ban means Scouting will shrink to irrelevance within a few decades. It will become an exclusively and overtly religious program, and lose the broad appeal it once had.

Contrary to nldscout's unhinged assertions, we're trying to save the organization.

Sure, Beavah, I suppose I was deliberately ignoring your point, because I see it as ridiculous and hypocritical.

"You join your club, I'll join mine, and we can live in harmony without tryin' to undermine each other's organizations."

That's really the crux of the matter, Beav. The BSA is not your club. It's not my club. It's an organization for the youth we serve. I have been a member and volunteer for years, and was a member for years before I heard about the policy in question. No leader or supervisor has ever told me that this is the policy. No handbook has ever included it. I certainly have never agreed to it the thousands of times I said the Oath and Law. As far as we program peons go, the policy does not exist. So I have never been given the chance to agree or disagree with it.

But then one day I hear in the press that this organization's national governing body has put this policy in place. If I disagree, is it not my obligation to speak against it? Is it not my right to complain? Is it not part of basic citizenship to seek an end to a policy I regard as flawed and bigoted and utterly counterproductive, one that will ultimately lead to the decline of this organization?

You say no, it's been decided and this isn't a democracy, so hush up.

So I now say to all of you who want peoplelike me to quit: Follow your own principles. Do not speak out about the red wagon ban, the uniform change or any other policy or practice of the BSA or your local council with which you disagree. Stop posting here about complaints about your local camp program, or FOS practices, or changes in the MB lineup, or modifications to the Oath. Irving or your local HQ has made that decision, and it will not change. So either stop disrupting the program with your complaints, or else leave.

Again: See how silly you sound?

Background checks: Yes. http://www.ahgonline.org/backgroundchecks

Still spinning the legal language hard and fast, are we?

Of course there's a difference between private groups and public government. I just can't see how an organization that declares that it builds good citizens can turn around and assert that those basic, fundamental principles don't apply to itself. That is simply hypocrisy.

Our boys have the right and ability to speak up and lobby the PLC to change if something isn't going right in a troop. But the Shut Up And Sit Down crowd here would apparently tell those boys to hush it, punks, the rule is in place and we're not changing, so put up with it or quit.

Do y'all see how silly you sound?

How can "the Catholic Church is pivoting away from GSUSA" be possible when GSUSA was never "involved" with the Catholic Church, in the same way as BSA?

Because SeattlePioneer (a) really desperately wants this to be true for some reason, (b) has not done a whit of research into how GSUSA works and © has not even done a cursory search of the website he cites.

That site clearly indicates that the committee he discusses does support the Girl Scout program:

- It lists religious medals for girls that specifically include Girl Scouts: http://seattleoyyam.org/programs/catholic-scouting/emblem-books-and-medals'>http://seattleoyyam.org/programs/catholic-scouting/emblem-books-and-medals

- The Catholic Scout Retreat at Camp Don Bosco in October includes Girl Scouts among its themes: http://seattleoyyam.org/programs/catholic-scouting

But by all means, let's fall over ourselves asking breathlessly whether a volunteer's name no longer being listed on a website means a sea change in a program.

[Edited: Sorry about the link - it won't copy right for some reason](This message has been edited by shortridge)

nldscout wrote:

"Try and change them all you want, be my guest, however BSA has said they are not changing. So that leaves you 2 choice, stay within the present rules or leave. Do not disrupt the program because you don't like the rules.

"If the day comes and BSA changes its rule, then I and a lot of other souters will have to deceide if we can live with the new rules or if we will just leave."

I'm kind of astonished by the number of people on this board who hold to this viewpoint. "We won. BSA isn't changing. So either go away or shut up." It's very similar to the "America - love it or leave it" line used against the antiwar protestors in the 1960s.

Just because I choose to fight from the inside does not mean I waive my right to speak out. Just because the current policy is something I oppose does not mean I must leave.

I keep coming back to Roe v. Wade. People outside and inside government have been fighting to change that ruling for decades now. Yet I doubt many of the people who agree with nldscout on the BSA's gay ban would say that those groups must stop lobbying, proposing amendments and working to educate the public about their point of view. Nor would they agree that those activities are disrupting anything. (nldscout, was the Northern Star Council's board disrupting Scouting when it approved its policy? Should they all be forced to resign because they disagree with National's policy?)

Working to change policies and laws is a fundamental part of being an American. I'm sorry that a judge fails to understand that.

As for the issues that some have brought up about letting in girls and atheists: One thing at a time. We'll get there.

Rolling the message out through PTC and the commissioner service would have been an extremely effective method 10 years ago.

But when we consider how we get information in our daily lives, doesn't the idea of passing it on word-of-mouth at monthly meetings that can be poorly attended seem a bit ... quaint? Not to mention, considering all we hear about huge holes in the commissioner ranks and the fact that only a tiny fraction of commissioners attend PTC, could it not be a bit ineffective?

Putting out a blurb and link on Facebook, Twitter, via email, on the Scouting.org page ... all those are excellent ways to get the word out and provide extensive background information to answer all those nagging questions.

I'm going to keep on following the Oath and Law, thanks much.

"A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them."

That does not say "If a Scout thinks a rule is unfair, he should shut up because the majority has ruled and no dissent is permitted."

Members of Congress have been vowing to overturn Roe v. Wade for years. You apparently believe that they should be barred from doing so because legal abortion is the law of the land.

A judge with your line of thinking would have been one of those magistrates tossing sit-in demonstrators in the hoosegow back in the '60s because segregation was the law.(This message has been edited by Shortridge)

Not to belabor the point, but how would you deal with a gay person charged in a domestic violence case?

How would you respond to gay jurors who request to be excused because they have to take care of their sick partner?

And what about a traffic case in which a person's same-sex partner was injured?

More to the point for this discussion, would you tell a young Scout who came out to you that he was an abomination?