shortridge

"We thought that if it was being cancelled, that someone would have come around to tell us."

Sorry, I'm confused. Didn't you say that the SPL was told the ceremonies were canceled?

"When my spl got back to camp, he said that the camporee director said that due to the weather (It was raining very heavily as well as a thunderstorm going on), that the morning flag ceremony and opening ceremonies were being canceled."

Yep, there it is.

"I told the SPL that we were going to the parade grounds anyway."

So the SPL's statement wasn't authoritative enough for you? Did you want to hear it from another adult?

And you disagreed with the camporee director's decision... why, exactly?

Unfortunately, BSA's policies on Venturing uniforms don't exactly address all the questions and permutations.

The key section from the Venturing Leader Manual, pp. 338-9:

"The BSA green Venturing shirt is available for wear by Venturers and adult leaders... [shirt and charcoal gray shorts/pants are] the recommended field uniform for Venturers."

That seems pretty clear to me. If you're going to wear the shirt, you wear the pants or shorts, too.

But the paragraph then winds up with the extremely broad statement: "A uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew." That sentence, combined with the phrase "recommended field uniform," undoubtedly creates uncertainty and confusion.

A simple, straightforward declarative sentence would put a lot of questions to rest.

Most staffers are 15 to 17 year olds that have just learned the topic during staff week. The instructor may get a crash course on the topic and an outline of what to do each day, but that usually happens in the last couple days of the staff week at the same time theyre trying to get a million other things done like skits, songs, and camp preparation.

I'm sorry if this was your experience - sounds like a crummy situation for both campers and staffers.

Where I've worked, instructors and area directors were selected for their maturity and expertise in the field. We didn't pick someone who hadn't yet taken high school biology to be an ecology instructor, for example. If you wanted to teach an Aquatics merit badge, you had to have a lot of the pool and waterfront badges already, and people with BSA Lifeguard or Red Cross Lifeguard certification shot to the top of the list. Experience clearly counts.

The exact assignments of who's teaching what badges may not be determined until staff week, that's true. But as an outdoor skills director, I aimed to match badges with staff skills - putting our best cook as Cooking MB instructor, etc.

The instructors also developed their own teaching outlines and lesson plans, detailing what they do day by day. (We avoided the pre-packaged lesson plans because they lack detail.) That process was begun early in staff week, though, and not saved until the last minute.

You will occasionally encounter an instructor with little to no background in the badge he's teaching - the Space Exploration badge is a perfect example. From my own experience, I taught Basketry while having never earned the badge. I had about 10 hours notice after the original volunteer instructor became unavailable. But I'd say that those are by far the exception to the rule.

It would be fantastic to run a camp where very instructor had significant experience in the field - search and rescue team members teaching wilderness survival, veteran portagers teaching canoeing, ex-military snipers teaching rifle shooting. To get to that level, councils would have to dramatically raise camp prices, however.

It sounds like your DE doesn't quite understand the issue, or else is just a jerk. This is money that the council wouldn't otherwise get - essentially free cash, right? The DE doesn't have to lift a finger to get it. All you guys want is to divide it so some of the money goes to the pack. A 50-50 split does not sound unreasonable.

Try talking to your DE again and make sure he or she understands that the money may not be coming next time if the pack doesn't get a share of it. Don't pitch it as a threat, but just as a collegial, informational thing. $750 may not seem like a lot, but every little bit counts towards the DE's fundraising goals.

As a side note, that sounds like a great place to work! Can you give more details about his employer?

In reference to halikiki's question, Venturers may not wear the Boy Scout shirt:

"Male and female Venturers should not wear the Boy Scout tan shirt with green shoulder loops." (p. 338 of the Venturing Leader Manual)

So the decision of the crew does have some limits.

From the Muskegon Chronicle, Sept. 28, 2008:

Boy Scouts want out of Owasippe land deal

Chicago Boy Scouts are trying to get out of a purchase agreement for the Owasippe Scout Reservation that sparked a zoning lawsuit and fears that the pristine property would be turned into residential subdivisions.

http://www.mlive.com/news/chronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-15/1222596916279410.xml&coll=8

As a side note, I'm not sure I understand the concern of the troop committee members in this case. rdcrisco, could you clarify?

Scouts go off on their own rather frequently to Scouting events where leaders from their unit aren't necessarily present, and the troop committee has no say in those issues either.

They include summer camp, as a provisional camper, and national high adventure bases, Philmont and national and world jamborees, all as part of a council contingent.

I think the "some" who have concerns are correct.

Putting issues of malfeasance aside (and financial control is a huge worry if it's concentrated in one person), what happens if this individual gets sick? That's a very simple and non-confrontational way to look at it. If only one person has the keys, the accounts, the contacts, the spreadsheets, the databases, the passwords, the forms, the policies and procedures, then your entire unit is dependent on that single person.

In my ideal world, the COR would hold no other position in the unit, but represent the point of view of the chartered organization to the unit, and vice-versa, as well as serving at the council level. Those are some huge responsibilities on their own.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing barring the COR from attending and helping out at pack meetings, campouts or other unit events, is there?

rdcrisco -

I second Tokala - have your SPL contact the lodge or chapter's elections chairman. A trained elections team can visit and explain everything.

However, the troop committee should understand that OA membership is not up to them, but up to the Scouts. The committee has zero say in the matter. If the SPL requests a unit election, and the election is conducted properly, then the Scouts are elected. End of story.

The adult leadership only has a say in the form of the Scoutmaster, who must approve all eligible candidates before the election. Conceivably, he or she could disqualify all of them - but it would be pretty hard to say that multiple Eagle Scouts are not qualified, which would be a heck of a step.

What no-cook meals have proven to be backpacking trip favorites in your units?

I've used tortilla wraps, bagels, peanut butter, jerky, string cheese, fresh fruit on first day, GORP, tuna fish pouches.

Any innovative suggestions? Anything your Scouts really like?

What disgusts me with the types of actions some posters have described is that children are put in the untenable situation of keeping their parents' secrets. That's revolting.

Kids should never have to lie for mommy and daddy. To put your child in that situation reveals an incredible degree of self-absorption and narcissism. Placing your personal desires ahead of your child's stability and well-being makes you scum in my book. You're an adult, for cripe's sake - act like one!

As far as these relationships in Scouting go, an adult leader whose focus is on wooing another adult leader isn't going to have his or her primary attention on the Scouts.

"I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue."

Unless the lone Scout is the ASM's son, wouldn't this violate YP's prohibition on one-on-one contact?

Seems more cost-effective these days to put both ASM and Scout into another, larger multipassenger vehicle.

I know I said I was done, but I kept on reading and now am a bit confused.

- BW said, in talking about councils' roles in recordkeeping: "They do not have to do this."

But training recordkeeping is no longer a district function, right? If the councils don't do it, does it revert back to the individual?

That seems to be what's happening here. Individuals still have to provide councils with their information, despite councils having taken over the recordkeeping function. The difference between council and district recordkeeping seems to be that one did not have to doublecheck the district records every year - you could rely on the volunteers like BW.

- Eagle92 says councils cannot opt out of Scoutnet.

Yet the letter dluders received from his council clearly says that his council is abandoning the database.

If the council is still inputting information into Scoutnet but using a reliable off-the-shelf system for its own purposes, I would send a bouquet of $100 bills for the clerks who are now going to develop serious carpal tunnel syndrome double-entering all that the data.

Asking price for Avery Hand: $1.4 million.

From the ad:

The property is in first rate condition and has full camp ammenities; dining hall, activities/craft buildings, staff lodging facilities, bunk house cabins, high ropes course, fishing/recreation pond, open area for sports and team building activities, camp fire sites, woods and trails for hiking and tent camping, archery/rifle range, maintenance buildings and 3 bedroom caretakers house on premises.

Full details here: http://tiny.cc/1EP5T

The camp where I worked for several years in the '90s had an "orienteering" kit similar to what you describe, left over from the 1960s or '70s in an old brown envelope with the BSA logo. I haven't seen it sold for a while.

Keep in mind that while such a course or kit will teach proper compass use, it doesn't do anything for teaching them proper orienteering skills, such as those now used for Orienteering MB, which focus on map-reading and navigation. Check out www.scoutorienteering.com for more info, and have fun!

An ultralight backpacker named Ray Jardine makes his own pack, tarp-tent and quilt (instead of sleeping bag): www.rayjardine.com/papers/magazines/1998-backpacker/index.htm. I haven't gone for the tarp yet because mosquitoes are heck where I'm from.

A collection of DIY plans for a lot of gear can be found here: http://www.backpacking.net/makegear.html

Sorry - the system isn't letting me edit the post... That should be "Scoutcraft skills," not Scoutcraft stills. (Though I've known a few people who could probably lash together a gin mill...)

John-in-KC - This is entirely in the brainstorming phase right now, but I don't see any major costs other than any "throwback" uniforms or special training for the instructors, and maybe a reprint edition of Scouting for Boys.

The first edition Fieldbook (brown cover) has a picture of the pack. (Alas, it refers readers to Boy's Life for plans.)

I've been looking at lots of plans online for DIY ultralight backpacks (no frame, like a slightly oversized daypack), and am very curious how the GBB Pack compares.

I know it was a while back, but I stopped in for a day at the 1989 jamboree as a second-year Webelos - we worked it in as part of a visit to my grandparents.

It was an overwhelming experience, in all senses of the word. There was a lot to see, but not much to do. Kind of boring overall unless you liked standing in line. I vividly remember being eager to see Steven Spielberg, who was launching Cinematography MB at the jambo that year. You could barely see the stage for the crowd.

It put me off NOAC and other similar big events more or less permanently. I figure I can go on 20-30 campouts for the same two grand that a full jambo trip would cost, having more fun seeing more territory to boot.

I will, however, always remember the Scouter from California who saw I was interested in the patch-trading row and gave me a patch from Orange County. It was probably one he had about 10 copies of, but it was a very kind gesture to a young squirt.

If you really want to go, the multiple-day trip would be your best bet for sure. Just be patient, and practice walking and map-reading.

In my council, 2010 will mark two significant moments - the obvious centennial of Scouting and the 45th anniversary of one of our council camps.

I've thought it would be neat to offer a "throwback"-style summer camp program for older Scouts - going back to some of the original merit badges and rank requirements, old-style Scoutcraft stills to include tracking and trailing, using the original Brownsea patrol names, old-style uniforms, etc. Call it "Century Camp" or something similar. It could also incorporate some of the history of this particular camp.

Has anyone out there encountered such a program? Have any ideas or suggestions?

Wow. I'd never worked through all the different permutations of the rules. Thanks - I now have a massive headache!

Fantastic! Thanks very much. On a limited budget, I didn't want to go around buying up old books if I wasn't sure it was in there.

The technical term for a bowling-pin hammer is "schmoo," alternatively spelled "shmoo."

They are fantastic at hammering in wooden or large metal stakes. Also for adjusting outriggers and 4x4s when setting up platform wall tents at summer camp.

A few points, and then I'm closing my book on this discussion. We can all politely agree to disagree.

* The council is clearly the gatekeeper of the data, both input and output. National does not send out letters to individual Scouters about new training requirements - councils do. That makes them the responsible front-line people. It doesn't matter if the database is kept on a National server or a council server.

* If councils can drop Scoutnet - as dluders' reply indicates - then councils do have an option in this case. They don't have to use the National system. Councils also have more pull with National than a single unit leader does. If they complain en masse, one would hope they're going to get results.

* If National made itself the arbiter and recordkeeper of all (or most) training records through Scoutnet, then it needs to give its local councils the proper support. That seems to be the failing in this case. Unfortunately, I'd suspect that most Scouters don't understand the Council/National split. Councils are as high as the majority of Scouters get. I thank you, BW, for clarifying the differences in this case.

* If problems such as this persist, they lead to a severe lack of confidence in the ability of both National and Council to perform basic functions. You don't take over a task unless you're sure you can accomplish it. That's what we're hearing here.

BW: I have never called anyone a name on this forum. All I have said is that someone who continually loses records, inconveniencing groups of people on multiple occasions even after being provided the correct information, could reasonably be classified as incompetent. Competence isn't simply a question of punching in the right codes beside someone's name. It's also doing the right thing over a period of time.

BW,

Spot-checks of data make sense, but what the PD in this case described is something else entirely - double-checking the outputs every time:

"We have gotten in the habit of reviewing those reports before we send out mailings like the one you just received. With the volume of names however, it is inevitable that we will miss some of the errors."

If you don't trust your system, then scrap it! I can't imagine that a private business would keep a system that consistently screwed up its inventory, fulfillment or payroll records. There would either be too many complaints from inside and out, or it would no longer be cost-efficient to keep putting on band-aid-and-chewing-gum fixes.

As you acknowledged, recordkeeping in most places is now a council responsibility. I can understand problems at the district level, given demands on volunteers' time and turnover in those positions. I can't understand why those problems would persist at the council level, where people have the money, time, resources and leverage to deal with them.

Again, flip it around and think about this situation from another perspective. If I, as a unit leader, kept screwing up my Scouts' advancement information, causing problems for both my unit and folks at Council who had to deal with the aftermath, I'd be rightly called incompetent. That's my responsibility, and I repeatedly failed at it even after having been given multiple chances. End of conversation.