sctmom

To let you know that all hope is not lost, let me describe my community and the local public schools. We do still refer to Christmas holidays for the kids. There is a big wreath on the outside of the school building. There is a Christmas tree in the lobby of the school building, with handmade ornaments by the kids. A lot of the rooms have Christmas trees, some classes take field trips to the local tree farm/pumpkin patch to get their tree. There will be a party on the last day of school for each class. The kids sang Christmas carols at the December PTO meeting. The spelling words include Christmas, Santa Claus, dreidel, and Kwanzaa. The local community had it's annual Christmas tree lighting on the first Saturday of December, with Christmas carols sung by the public school chorus. The county seat had it's big Christmas parade the first Saturday of December, complete with Scouts and Santa ( our Tigers scouts even got to TALK to Santa afterwards). The county seat has the town square (yes an old town) decorated for the holidays, right in front of the courthouse. The bulletin board in the school lobby has a dove made out of paper cutouts of children's hands (hard to explain, but it makes it look like feathers, really cool). Oh, and the mechanical Mr. & Mrs. Claus are working away in the School office for everyone's amusement. I know people who are not Christian, they worship by Native American beliefs. Yet they still have a Christmas tree, exchange gifts, give thanks on December 25th and respect everyone's right to celebrate the holiday. I personally believe these folks who think banning everything is the answer to diversity and understanding other cultures are way off base. I do try to explain to my son that not everyone celebrates Christmas and why, including some Christians do not do the Christmas tree & lights. That we should respect their rights, and not force them to participate. I will NOT tell my location for fear of the DOPEYS will appear!!!

It's the mindset that worries me, not having a boy do 10 pushups. It's that attitude of "we are bigger and older so we can make you do something you hate". I expect misbehavior to have a consequence, but just don't feel that physical punishment doesn't have a place in scouting.

Okay, here's the mom's point of view -- DO INSPECTIONS! Don't humiliate them, but I think uniform inspections are great. An example, my son plays community league basketball, I tell him to tuck in his shirt before the game (as they must do) and he ignores me. The coach or the ref or a teammate tells him to do it, and he does it immediately. From what I've seen with Webelos, some of the boys and parents, don't know the proper way to wear a uniform (even though the dads are in the military). The purpose of the uniform is to present a positive image and to give the boy more of a feeling of pride. I can speak from experience if you are allowed to dress however for work, eventually that affects your attitude about work. If the boys can wear their uniforms sloppy, that carries over to their attitudes. As we are visiting troops to decide which one to join, that first impression of how the uniform is worn is very important. I know there is much more, but the uniform is something all the parents look at and comment on. Not so much "full uniform" but is it worn neatly, shirt tucked, buttoned correctly, hat worn correctly, neckerchief not in a bundle, etc.

Girls do play practical jokes on each other and some are very cruel and embarrasing. This is not just a "boy" thing. Practical jokes that are funny would be things like a whoopee cushion or a fake spider in the latrine. Most of the jokes I've seen as skits involved a "plant" in the audience as the butt of the joke. The boys get a kick out of it, and the plant plays it up big time. Pulling a joke that is humilitating or puts a scout in physical danger is NOT funny. The reason I had not responded is because I KNEW there would responses like Roosters -- "what does a woman know about being a boy."

While visiting troops with my Webelos son, I heard something that bothered me. This troop looks great except for this one little comment. Something was said about treating all the boys the same. The scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster said "we will tell another boy to give us push ups just as quick as we do our own." Is this a good discipline technique? I know a scout should keep himself physically strong, but this seems over the line to me. I expect them to correct any misbehavior, but I'm not signing my son up for boot camp. Am I overreacting?

Hi OGE! I was thinking about this subject as I drove in to work this morning! I was surprised to find out that snipe hunts catch 11 year old boys by surprise. I knew by the time I was 8 what a snipe was, and I'm a girl. Maybe because by that time I had learned not to trust my older brother and sister whenever they said "oh, this will be fun" LOL I agree that humiliation is never a good thing. Unbelievable that any adult would let a snipe hunt go on all night or let scouts embarrass themselves in front of others looking for a left handed smoke shifter. I have read many skits that I thought were cruel and hazing. It isn't about political correctness, it is about being friendly, kind and courteous (those words ring a bell?). My brother was a Boy Scout for a brief time in the 70's. I remember him coming home from a campout where the worst thing they did was put toothpaste in each other's shoes. It wasn't embarrasing, just annoying - mainly to the moms. Some boys are easily embarrased especially at such a young age. You are very likely to end up losing boys or causing them to lash out in anger. I know one young boy who would very likely turn into a little anger machine if you pulled a joke on him that embarrased him. Boys roughhousing is "boys will be boys". Boys forgetting things is "boys will be boys". Boys getting dirty is "boys will be boys". Being mean is just plain old being mean no matter who you are. I have to say I liked the way Chippewa's troop handled the left handed smoke shifter.

::::: standing and applauding OGE's excellent and intelligent post :::::

Is that something unique to their pack? I've never seen anything about it in BSA material. I do think it is a great idea.

I always viewed popcorn money as a PACK fundraiser. Most dens in our pack don't need that much money to exist. We collect dues of $1 per week per scout during school months (we aren't very active during the summer). Those dues go to the den. The more my den can earn for the pack, the better the program is for all. I never considered that a den leader would want to keep the money. I guess if I really needed something the pack would give me some money.

Pagan means to worship more than one god, yes there are other meanings but this is the one first listed in the dictionary. Wiccans and other pagans do not worship the devil, in fact they don't believe in the devil. Satan is a Judeo-Christian "character" (for lack of a better word). Wiccans or witches, first rule is to do no harm. Pagans also say prayers. Native American religions are "pagan". Native Americans say prayers, they believe in a Great Spirit. Pagans are not out to convert anyone to their religion. Wiccans are not happy about the Harry Potter books, despite what you hear in the news. It doesn't represent the values they believe in either. They also believe in honesty, integrity, not harming others, and being true to one's self. I'm no expert, but I thought Baden-Powell believed that everyone needs to have a spiritual belief system and a higher power to believe in. I believe atheists do not believe in a higher power. In some recent readings, I found out more of how our country's founding fathers recognized and respected the faith of others, including Buddhist and Muslims. What little I know about Wicca, I doubt they would ever want a religious award.

If what I am doing in my private life does not affect you, why do you need to judge if it is right or wrong? Yes, we must have standards, people cannot just running around doing whatever they want when it affects others -- lies, theft, murder, rape, abuse (physical and emotional), cheating, drunk driving, adultery, etc. What we each believe in our soul to be true to ourselves, if it does not affect others, is a personal decision. There aren't many things that fall into this category, but what you do in private with a consenting adult is personal (running around on someone else is lying and a different situation). If what I do really affects you or anyone else, then I need to think about the consequences. This even applies to how I treat the driver in the lane next to me or if I throw litter on the side of the road; those are things that DO affect other people. My actions in front of others, adults or kids, affects other people. If I consistently lose my temper and act ridiculous in front of you, this impacts you in some way. If I cuss in front of you, that is impacting and I should use more care in my language. If I try to convince you to take part in sexual activity you do not want to do, then I am affecting you and that is wrong.

Brad, Christians also previously had practices we do not participate in today, such as animal sacrifices, multiples wives and slavery. I don't think anyone questions if the Christians want to revive these practices. I have read some about the Cherokee tribe and they held monogamous relations in high regards. If you feel other religions may return to previous activities and traditions, shouldn't you also wonder about Christians?

The Cub Scout Leader Handbook has the description of each committe member.

There are many non-Christian religions that are not "just created for convience" but have been around as long if not longer than Christianity. Native Amercian religions, Druids, Wicca, Pagans (which covers Wicca and Druids as well as many others), to name a few. Yes, these are legitimate religions. It doesn't mean I believe everything they believe in, but these are not cults or fly-by-night (excuse the pun) religions. With the internet at our fingertips we can find out a lot about what they really believe in and practice. Also, you might be surprised (as I have been) to learn of what high moral standards most of these people adhere to and how similar their beliefs are to Christianity. Many Christian rituals were borrowed from the pagans or created as competition to the pagan rituals.

First, I am SCTMOM and there is also a SCOUTMOM on here. Even though we seem to agree, we are not one person. One comment was made: "The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization. I think, but Im not sure, that would be the God of Abraham" Uh, there are other religions than Christianity, Judiasm and Muslim. There are religions that do not worship the same god as Abraham did. And to be completely off subject, there is an excellent article in the current National Geographic about Abraham and the religions that believe in him. Rooster writes: "I believe God (regardless of faith), has given each of us "moral common sense". Now, I realize that opens the door to more debate, but stillI believe it to be true. That being said, I'm confident that OGE, Sctmom, and every practicing homosexual knows in their heart of hearts, that the behavior is wrong. It is an obvious perversion of naturepurely from a biological standpoint this is plain to see. Even more blatant is its offensiveness to God. " Again, not all religions are included in Christianity, Judiasm and Muslim. Not all religions believe it is wrong or offensive to God. There are religions being practiced today in the United States of America that worship goddesses and other gods. These people have very high moral values and live among you as upstanding citizens. I have searched my heart and I don't feel it is wrong. (even though you were referring to Scoutmom, not me when you wrote this). True there is no biological reason for it. But I still don't feel it is wrong.

To expand on OGE's questions and statements: I know people who are not allowed to play cards or any games with dice because their religion (a MAJOR denomination in Christianity) says it is immoral. As OGE mentions, this same group would say all divorcees are immoral (especially the female ones). Females should not wear pants, only dresses that go well below the knees. No smoking, drinking, or dancing! Lusting in your heart is as bad as adultery. Whoa, that just knocked out a bunch of scout leaders on not being "morally straight"! I'm not joking, I'm not exaggerating. These are things believed as immoral by a large number of Christians. Here is what I find in my Merriam Webster dictionary: perversion - noun 1: the action of perverting: the condition of being perverted 2: a perverted form of something; especially aberrant sexual behavior. My Webster's New World Dictionary printed by Simon & Schuster in 1988 says: perversion: noun 1: a perverting or being perverted 2: something perverted; abnormal form 3: any of various sexual acts or practices deviating from what is considered normal; sexual deviation. perverted: adj. 1: deviating from what is considered right, good, or true; misdirected, corrupted, etc. 2: of or practicing sexual perversion 3) misinterpreted, distorted. "any of various sexual acts or practices deviating from what is considered normal" could mean that anything but the missionary position is immoral. At least, my mother told me that was the only "normal" thing to do. About the whole issue of BSA being a private organization and therefore being able to set it's membership requirements -- I've been thinking about this lately. My son is having problems in school. I think he needs to be in a smaller classroom so he can get more one on one attention. Right across the street from the public school is a church owned school. I sometimes think of sending him there. But I do not adhere to their beliefs, in fact am against some of their beliefs. Yet, I feel that if I enroll my son that I cannot expect them to change all of their teachings for me and my child. I can get his education elsewhere. Why would the atheist family feel compelled to join BSA? I think Campfire USA accepts everyone regardless of religious belief.

I looked in MY Boy Scout Handbook and it said "you don't have to have a uniform to be a Boy Scout". Not that I'm an expert, but I thought there was no "official" class B. A problem I have with the uniform is my son is really small for his age. I don't think those size 8's are going to fit him next spring when he crosses over. And now that they want all 4th grade Webelos to wear the green pants, I know a few that aren't going to be able to get them to fit, especially since they don't come in slim sizes. Oh, the lady at the Scout Shop said I could have them custom made ........HAHAHAHA, Yeah Right --- let's add another $10 to those pants my child will not wear for more than 1 year. Hadn't caused any trouble all day, just had to join in on the argument..oops..discussion.

Definition of HOMOPHOBIC per Merriam-Webster's Dictionary: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.

For those who figure they smoke at home around their boys so it's okay to smoke at troop meetings --- there is a difference. My son nor I have to stay at your house if we don't want to. What happens at your house is to some extent your business. Also, many people are sensitive to smoke and some very allergic to smoke. We have a few smoking parents in our Pack, at campouts they are very discreet. I forget sometimes that they smoke at all. I visited a troop where the adults stood at the door of the meeting building smoking. My problem not just being this was in plain view of the scouts but also that you had to walk through them and the smoke to get in the building! They just got out of the car, didn't the smoke on the way over? Also, saw this troop in action on a campout. The adults leaders didn't try at all to be discreet. While working with the scouts, I saw the boys have to pick up and move the packs of cigarettes because the female leader didn't have a pocket to put them in. She was 40 feet from the car, couldn't she have left them in there and walked away when she needed to smoke? She was only with the boys for about 1 hour. She would have a cigarette in one hand while using the other to work with the boys on their activity. I have never smoked but sympathize with those who want to quit. I enjoy diet colas, know they are bad for me, but darn it, it's hard to quit drinking them. I can't imagine trying to quit smoking.

I don't understand something in this. Are other people not able to go to the City Park because BSA is there? Is the city going to pay BSA for all the improvements that they have made on this property? I guess the law may say you don't have to pay for the improvements, but would that not be a "civil" (no puns intended) thing to do?

The joining requirements per the last Boy Scout Handbook are: 1) Be 11 years old OR 2) Have earned the Arrow of Light OR 3) Have finished the 5th grade A 10 1/2 year old cannot join unless he has the Arrow of Light. I personally do not think this is a rule to be bent or modified. As someone else said, a boy with is AOL gets to join early because he has the AOL not just because he was "bored". Someone needs to find out why he is bored. This is often a word used by young boys just because they are not getting their way or because the situation is frustrating. Also, sometimes as a way to appear "cool" in front of the other boys. I have a few Webelos who have the best time at meetings and say so. But when my back is turned they tell other boys that it is "boring" and they just don't know if they are coming back. Next time, there they are excited as can be and flat out commenting "This is FUN."

Our committee members are parents. It's great for the parents who want to help but don't want to be den leaders.

There is something about another adult telling a kid to do something like laundry that makes them listen. Even though no adult is as smart as a teenager, other adults are slightly smarter than one's own parents.

For all the problems we all deal with and discuss, I wanted to share some of the good things about Scouting. Last week I took some Webelos to a Boy Scout troop meeting. The troop had planned special patrol type events for our boys. The scoutmaster spent over an hour talking to the parents. When we were done we asked the boys if they had fun (as if we couldn't tell from their faces), the answer was YES. Asked what the did, "STUFF!". A week later we are still hearing bits and pieces of the things they did. They are all ready to join Boy Scouts now after 1 troop meeting visit. The troop was wonderful to sacrifice their meeting time for us, a time they usually work on merit badges and advancements. The Webelos got to see what "boy-led" meant and felt very comfortable there. Also, on Saturday our Cub Scout pack worked on decorating containers to fill with goodies for a local nursing home. We had about 30 kids show up, with a lot of parents, to spend over an hour decorating containers and sorting goods. Everyone worked very hard and did a great job. We have had wonderful support for this project. Soon we will go to deliver these goodies and sing songs for the nursing home residents. After doing that and popcorn all day Saturday, then many of us gathered so the Cubs could be in a local parade. Again, wonderful support. Boys well behaved and everyone had a great time. Some of our Cub Scout Pack alumni (6th and 7th graders) joined in the parade and helped in watching the younger boys. Then to top off the week, I had a Webelos scout say last night "wow, I really like Cub Scouting, we have FUN". Yep, this is why we do it.

Even though I do not fully agree with BSA's policy on this issue, I support their right to it. I also think all the good things in Scouting outweigh this issue overall; otherwise I wouldn't be in Scouting. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater seems so extreme and such a shame. So many boys are being hurt by this approach.