scoutingagain

Calico, I did discuss the incident with the boys. I told them they had done nothing wrong, but every now and then they are going to run into a person in authority who is flat out wrong but they will need to listen to them politely. Then decide if the issue is big enough to confront the person. Other activities were beginning at the camporee and they basically moved on and did other things. After a while I did try and explain the game to the scouter that had interupted the game quietly. She basically did not want to hear anything that did not support her original actions. The stick was something the boys had picked and had fashioned for the purpose of the game, nothing of value. As I noted with the boys, one needs to choose one's battles. At this point the boys were doing other things. The other adult wasn't going to change her mind and I did not feel like expending the energy that would be needed to do so. SA

1.A scout safely off by himself, jousting at imaginary dragons, ninjas or whatever is not a problem to me. 2.A scout indiscriminately swinging a stick around while on a hiking trail is a big problem. 3.Two scouts doing this, play fighting, is a problem regardless of the circumstances. The latter two behaviours need to be corrected. The first, not in my mind, just a reminder to keep an eye out for others and make sure the scout is away from areas where others may pass. So I don't know if your over reacting or not. If the situation is more simlar to item 1 than items 2 & 3 maybe you are. I'm reminded of an incident I witnessed at a camporee. Two scouts in the unit I serve were playing a game they learned at summer camp that involves a walking stick. Basically one takes the stick, about 5' long, and stretches out his arm from the end of the stick to a point on the ground maybe 3' from his feet. Then turns in a circle making a circle in the ground, sand, but marking out a circle on the ground. Then two players step into the circle and each grab the stick with both hands and hold it horizontally. At the command.. "start" or "go" each player tries to force the other player out to step out of the circle. Both players must keep both hands on the stick or play is stopped. Now this is not just a game of strength. There is quite a bit of balance, timing and deception involved as well as strength, but there is a lot of pulling, shoving and fake pulling, shoving, etc. Anyway the scouts in our unit were playing this game. Quite organized actually, they had an imprompto referee that stopped play when things got out of hand and declared the winner and loser of each match. After a while several scouts from other nearby units were also watching. They were asked if they would like to try. I'm observing all this and thinking this is great. They boys are getting excercise, they're working together, meeting new scouts, a whole male bonding moment. After several rounds the boys are doing fine in my mind. Competing, winning, losing, but overall they are getting along and overall sportsmanship is high. After a while another scouter observes this activity runs over grabs the stick and proceeds to dress down the entire group about how scouts don't fight and they should be doing this. One of the scouts tries to explain they weren't fighting but playing a game but at this point the scouter wasn't going to hear any explanations. She just said something like scouts don't play games like this and walked off with the stick, giving me the dirtiest look she could because I was clearly aware of this and did nothing to stop it. SA

My two cents. As a youth I participated in both Scouts and Little League. I spent hours and hours trying to perfect the skill of throwing a round sphere approx. 2.5" to 3" in diameter through an imaginary box 17 inches wide and the length of an average 11-12 year olds distance between their shoulders and knees. I never was very good at this skill so I was relegated to playing third base, because I could at least throw the sphere fast enough in the general direction of 1st base where I could get an opposing player out if I managed to get my hands on the sphere if it was hit in my direction. I got fairly good at this skill, however have not used these skill for any practical reason in say 30 to 40 years. As a recreational sailer, camper, homeowner, gardner, etc. I use the knot tying skills I learned in scouting at least on a monthly basis if not weekly. SA

Crewmomma, Along with the others let me thank you and your husband for your involvement with scouting. The discussion on parents reminded me of a parent I ran into during our time in Cub Scouts. The pack had had a full line up activities for the fall. In January we scheduled a snow tubing outing at a local hill. The response of this one parent was quite telling. It was something along the lines of, "You people are doing stuff with your kids all the time! Now this is another thing I have to do. I don't have time for this." yada, yada, yada. Some folks seemed to be thrilled to spend time with their kids. There are others, I sometimes wonder why they started a family. I find scouting in general seems to attract more of the first kind of parent. Many of the others, as noted earlier, can't even seem to find time to get their son to meetings, let alone participate. As my sons have grown it seems I've run into the same parents all along the way. The same ones who were 1st year soccer coaches, helped out with travel soccer. Cub leaders, moved on to scouting. Some did both. Some stayed involved with the school music programs, but they were there when their son or daughter picked up their 1st clarinet, trumpet or whatever at the elementary school music night. They have been a pleasure to associate with. Same as those of you on the forum. SA

Seems like the simple answer to this would be to turn this program over to Learning for Life. "Learning for Life offers seven programs designed to support schools and community-based organizations in their efforts to prepare youth to successfully handle the complexities of contemporary society and to enhance their self-confidence, motivation, and self-esteem. The seven programs focus on character development and career education. Learning for Life programs help youth develop social and life skills, assist in character and career development, and help youth formulate positive personal values. It prepares youth to make ethical decisions that will help them achieve their full potential." This program is heaquartered at 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, P.O. Box 152079, Irving, Texas 75015-2079, telephone 972-580-2433 and is open to all. SA

" if THIS is the price of local option, I'll take local option." Pack, this price is already paid. Individual COs have the option to restrict membership and control the activities of the units they sponsor if they choose to do so. There are COs that sponsor units that restrict membership by gender and/or by religion. Unfortunately other COs do not have the option you refer to. SA

The only restrictions on membership in the unit our Methodist Church sponsors are those imposed by BSA policies. My appologies for terminology, but as "Reconciling Methodist Congregation" (upon further research, "Welcoming" is apparently the term used by Universal Unitarian Congregations) there are potentially members of the Church who are not allowed to join the BSA unit sponsored by their institution based on BSA membership requirements, not any imposed by the CO. SA

I have to agree with Hunt. This probably could have been handled a little better, but that Priest as the IH of the CO that sponsors a Troop is fully within his authority to determine how that unit operates as a partner with the BSA. Just as there are COs that do not allow female adult leaders or require that all members of the unit they sponsor be members of a specific faith. I have no problem with this. It allows members and parents to find a unit that best fits their needs for a scouting program. I just wish the welcoming congregation of the Methodist Church that sponsors our unit had the same latitude to welcome all into scouting that this Priest has to restrict who will participate in certain scout functions at his institution. SA

"Every staffer is already either registered in a troop or crew. " Not necessarily so. Every staff member must be registered in a troop or crew at our council camp but may not be at the time they apply for a position at camp. By establishing a Camp Staff Crew, the camp director is then able to hire qualified employees who may not be actively registered in a troop or crew at the time of their expression of initial interest in employment. I don't know if it is a numbers game, but it is a bureacratic workaround to fill key positions on camp staff that may not be able to be filled from the ranks of actively registered scouts and scouters. SA

I'm suprised they only charge $180 for the week. That's about 2/3rds of what our summer camp costs for a week. SA

While I will admit to my biases against a young twenty something SM for many of the reasons stated, I would not automatically rule a candidate out because of age alone. I will also admit to the similar thoughts about a female SM, but would not rule out a candidate simply based on their gender either. SA

I get the same thing. If I log onto www.scouter.com the first page I see is the forums page and the links don't work from there. If, from there, I click on the forums link at the top of the page, and the forums page shows up again, from there I can get into the forum topics. SA

Zahnada, I believe Woody Allen summarized your point some 30 -35 years ago in one of his movies, when in a flashback scene to his childhood in Brooklyn, he explained why he didn't do homework with, "What's the point. The universe is expanding." SA

We traded our '98 Durango,5.2L V8 15 mpg, family vehicle for an'06 Highlander, V6 24 mpg avg. (Sorry OGE couldn't sell HWMBO on the xB) So far based on our family's typical usage, there has been nothing we did with the Durango, we havn't done with the Highlander, including hauling a small utility trailer, scout trips etc. The Highlander is a bit smaller in terms of hauling cargo though. My company has also purchased a number of Ford Escape Hybrids and I've driven those on occaision. They average about 28-29 mpgs and drive and feel like a larger SUV. However given the cost difference and all the technology that goes into the hybrid I don't see the point to pick up a few mpgs. I prefer the Highlander. The >50% increase in gas milage over the Durango actually helps pay about 20% of the loan I took out to buy it, not to mention the reduced insurance payment and lower maintenance costs. I'm done with the big SUVs, although I miss the throaty idle of the big V8. So far the troop has not been affected too much. Most of our spring trips were planned relatively locally. Not to avoid gas prices, just turned out that way. Normally for trips of under 200miles RT we did not ask scouts to pay for gas, leaders usually just sucked it up. For longer trips we added a fuel surcharge. We will probably need to revisit the issue on the next trip we take that requires any significant driving distance. SA

ASM915 said, if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Our District Adv. Chair just gave a presentation on Eagle Projects and the subject of financing came up. A scout may have to organize a fundraiser to fund his project. However, if he does organize a fundraiser, it should meet BSA fundraising requirements. This means among others things, scouts should not directly solicit contributions. Something of value should be offered in return, ie. a product, or service. In general direct "donations" of cash are not encouraged. So, yes the scout can organize fundraisers for his project, using members of the unit for labor, i.e. a car wash, a spaghetti dinner, pancake breakfast, etc. The unit and the scout should not solicit businesses or individuals for cash donations. They should not hold raffles. Philosophically, scouts do not ask for charity even if it's meant for good intentions. A scout pays his own way by offering something of value in return. Scouts should be encouraged to get money the old fashioned way...earn it. Now here is where it gets confusing though. In our district, solicitations for cash is a no-no, but if a lumberyard wants to donate lumber that's OK. I suppose if an airline wanted to donate a seat on an airplane, that might be OK. As others have said, check with your district advancement chair. SA

I would like to second the points brought up by Fscouter. While transparency is important with respect to troop finances, completely open books can be a nuisance as described by Beavah. Our treasures produces a monthly cash flow statement similar to that described by FScouter. Beginning balance, revenue/income, expenses, Ending Balance. The committee generally knows where the $$ is going, but occaisionally expenses include camperships or direct expenses for scouts whose families are having financial problems. I'm not sure some of the families involved would be comfortable having the rest of the unit know how much $$ they recieved and why. They submit campership applications on the basis they are kept confidential. Secondly, the Treasurer should be responsible for keeping track of unit funds and in my mind should not have a close tie to unit program operations. Combining the position of CC and Treasurer or SM and Treasurer is a recipe for bad news. In the unit I serve, the Treasurer is a mom who is not involved in the outdoor program. If we need $$ we ask her to cut a check for a specific amount made out to where the $$ is intended, or submit a receipt documenting why the $$ was spent and approved by the committee. No one person should be allowed access to or be authorized to directly spend unit funds. Our SM also has access to the account and records, but he cannot independently spend unit funds. Both the SM and Treasurer are highly trustworthy. The Treasurer is an officer at a Bank and the SM has been with the troop for 15 years. Yet both would insist upon some level of financial oversight to avoid the kind of issues result1 has described. This is just good financial stewardship. SA

Personally, if he had indeed informed the Patrol, and there was food available for him, I would let him attend. If functionally, the outing can proceed with no impact to others, I see know problem. The troop is there to serve it's youth members. Will the boy learn more by attending the outing or will he learn his troop is a training ground for when he has to deal with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles. The membership is not there to serve the unit's beauracracy, although I'd remind him of the importance of getting his paperwork in ontime. On the other hand, if the Patrol informed me, they did not have enought food for the late arrival or there was not enough room in a vehicle because they didn't think he was going on the outing because he wasn't on their list of expected attendees I would be inclined to say, sorry. I see this situation as if I showed up at an airline counter, called ahead to tell them I wanted to get on a certain flight, but show up a little late. Say after the official time to sign in for that flight. But the flight is delayed, and if the agent would only sell me a ticket, there would be plenty of time for me to make the flight. I would be a little perturbed as a customer if the agent kept to his assigned "rule" and didn't sell me a ticket for the flight. Sure this makes his life a little more difficult but he knows he's there to serve me the customer, and in all likelyhood would sell me a ticket, as long as there was a seat available. If I was late, and he told me the flight was booked and the extra seats had been assigned to standby passengers because I was late... well that would be my problem. SA

"..I hesitate to insert my thoughts too far into the process." I don't think there is anything wrong with coming up with suggestions for outings. Most boys will not have had the depth of outdoor experiences as active adult leaders. We just need to remember, and keep reminding new parents.. who makes the decisions with respect to activities. SA

"The funding of an Eagle project is the scouts' choice. " True, but I was under the impression that any fundraising for an Eagle Project should follow the basic guidelines for scout fundraising activities. That means providing something of value in return, like a car wash, pancake breakfast, spaghetti dinner etc. Raffles and direct solicitations for donations are a no no. At least that's how it was explained at our Life to Eagle presentation by our District Advancement chair. However, there is no requirement that fundraising needs to be done at all. That seems to be an ongoing myth. If the institution benefiting from the project has sufficient funds for materials, and the scout plans, organizes and demonstrates leadership in the completion of the project, that's fine. SA

Going back to the great ketchup debate, I'll bet that big troop buys the big 64 oz. size ketchup bottles, thereby proving beyond a reasonable doubt they use the Troop method. Not that that's a bad thing once in a great while! But I agree, it should not be the norm. SA

Wow, work as a CIT for free! What a deal! At our council camp the CITs PAY THE COUNCIL for the priviledge of a week of NYLT and then working at the camp for a minimum of 3 weeks! I might add they usually get more applicants for this program then there is space available. My son is headed for his third summer on camp staff as well. It's been one of the best experiences he's had in scouting. SA

Our council provides NYLT just prior to summer camp. All incoming camp staff and counselors-in-training, (we call them Lead Scouts), are required to participate in NYLT. The class is limited to 50 participants so after staff and Lead Scouts, it leaves about 20 - 25 openings for at large attendees. Youth that wish to attend the course must apply and there are usually more applicants than available spaces. I'm not sure how scouts are selected but I imagine preference is given to older scouts, with demonstrated commitment to serving in leadership roles in their unit, as opposed to those who are looking for something to put on a resume. The instructor is insistent about the age requirement. He will not take scouts under 13. His explanation is the course is demanding both physically and mentally and it's been his experience that the few times he's made an exception that younger scouts don't cut it, not in this course. I admit I'm not familiar with the curricullum. But my son took the course from this instructor two years ago. In addition to classroom instruction, the course included a night hike/backpacking overnight. Early morning wakeup calls, various physical team building excercises. For at least one day the entire class had to carry around a 100' line used to tie up ships, about 6 inches in diameter. At the end of the week, one of the exercises was to have groups use this line and tie a Turks Head Knot. My son came back a changed scout. It was after this course he dropped a school activity and decided to run for SPL. He came back proud to be a scout, wanting to lead. The NYLT patch he wears is the most important patch on his uniform to him. I might add he ends up quoting chapter and verse to me on the program. It's not uncommon if there is a program question, I'll go to him for advice (if I havn't run into it here. ) Cost is a factor, the week runs about $250, but many of the troops pay for or subsidize the training for their youth leadership. The cost is included in the Lead Scout Program, $330 for NYLT, Camp Staff week, plus 3 additional weeks for the priviledge of working at camp with the hope of getting to serve in a paid staff position the following year. So far the $330 I shelled out for my son to participate in NYLT and the Lead Scout Program has been the best investment I've made in scouting. SA

I'm simply making the assumption the "book" for SEs Beavah refers to in his post actually exists, and this book authorizes the SE to allow some flexibility in the administration of the overall scout program within his/her juridiction. Personally, I've followed this thread and tend to agree with the concept that when rules are written, it is impossible to anticipate every circumstance and permutation that could arise and that there should be some level of appeal to an authorized authority that would allow a rule to be "broken" or changed in a specific circumstance. SA

So if a duly authorized "rule changer", i.e. an SE, changes a rule he is allowed to change in a specific instance, is it really changing the program? SA

I have a scout at VT as well. Aged out as a 1st Class Scout last spring. One of those informal leaders that liked camping and hanging out with the troop, but didn't care for the advancement thing. Overall a good kid. Worried all day yesterday and didn't want to bother his mom who I'm sure had a traumatic day as well. Based on what I've heard today, I'm relatively confident our scout is OK. I also have a son away at school and thought about how those parents must feel. The grief would be incomprehensible to me. Thoughts and prayers go out to all. SA