scoutingagain

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is any public policy or legal requirement that prevents an individual student from praying in a public school as many times as he or she wishes, as long as the prayer does not infringe or disrupt classes or disturbs other students. Students also have the right to not pray if they wish.

So what's the beef? That everyone doesn't pray at the same time? In the same faith?

SA

I'll add my welcome back as well. Glad to hear your well.

Just curious though, based on your older posts I believe your son's should be well into college or beyond by now. What is your current involvment with scouting?

SA

" My sons soccor team use to go out and play paintball. "

Is there no Guide to Safe Soccer Activities? How can they allow this? Someone should pass a law, make rule or something. Think of all those innocent soccer players!

SA

Trying to answer the question at hand and forgetting about the DUI stuff for now.

Driving around with a car load of kids, legs dangling outside the car is illegal, and I might even consider it child endangerment. I'd discuss this with the driver, status as CC is not material, nor as far as I'm concerned are the G2SS requirements. This is irresponsible and illegal behavior on the part of the adult and he should told so. I would do so politely at first, as the point is to get him to change his behavior, not bust him on violating a rule or even a law. Sit down with him and simply ask him, does he think it's a good idea? If he knew his son was in a car where the driver deliberately disobeyed legal safety requirements for children, how would he feel? Where would he draw the line? No seatbelt? Driving 90mph? What would he do? How would he feel if one of the boys were killed or permanently disable in an accident while he was driving? Use of a seatbelt will substantially reduce that possibility.

He needs to see how his actions put the boys at risk, violated the law and how serious they were. Once he realizes this he won't do it again. If he does, then you can bring up laws, rules, and bring it to the attention of the committee overall and possibly the chartered organization rep. The chartered organization rep can put a restriction on his membership status as John-in-KC described. If he violates it, the COR can remove him from the Pack with a letter to council as to why.

Oh, and welcome to the forums. Good question. Hope you get the input you need.

SA

"I stuck my fingers in my ears and sang "I cant hear you!" Mainly, to let the CC know that I am not going to play Ms Nosy, while at the same time communicating that the activity is questionable."

Good grief. I think you did exactly what you should have done. Unless you know for certain this activity is being done as a scout unit, ... and not a bunch of boys who happen to be scouts, I'd let it go. Unless you want to pursue youth that play football, participate in laser tag, martial arts, ride in go carts, hunt, climb trees and other non-G2SS approved activities. Then you can go after the units that wear blue jeans.

I doubt they are submtting tour permits for approval that list Paintball as an activity and don't expect to be covered by BSA insurance anyway. You have no liability for the recreational activities other folks who happen to be members of the BSA happen to choose to do of their own free will.

If it is being done as a scout unit, you might remind unit leaders it's not allowed under the G2SS as nicely as Eamonn suggests.

SA

Well if he's "painfully shy" any meeting with 3 unfamiliar adults would probably make him nervous regardless of what anyone said to him.

At this stage of the game, I'd go with the others and have at least one adult he is comfortable with on the board.

SA

The unit I serve typically buys a cake for the ECOH, the Eagle Award kit, and Flowers for the mother of the Eagle.

SA

I think FScouter has a point. As one who works in the regulatory arena I see countless examples of misinterpretation or misapplication of an otherwise well intentioned rule. I tend to think there are more issues associated with good folks misapplying the rules than the rules themselves.

If the only thing we can come up with is Laser Tag, contact sports,(that are certainly available outside scouting) there doesn't seem like there's much that really prevents a high quality program.

There are tweaks to be sure. Like EagleDad there are things I miss. Signal Towers and Bridges come to mind. While I think the uniform "method" is great and fully support it, the current version of the uniform is hopelessly outdated and certainly not indicative of an organization that's supposed to be about outdoor activities. The term "parlour scout" is fully appropriate for the current wide lapel, polyester uniform. Finally, someone seems to have taken notice and the swichback pants are here and it sounds like more changes are coming.

SA

"My picayune question is this: if you go to summer camp for six nights, can you count one night of camp the next summer? "

Good question. I would count it if it was a night under the stars or in a tent the scout pitched himself. I would not count it if it's just throwing a sleeping bag on a bunk in a tent set up by the camp.

SA

Yeh. I remember those Cubbies too. As a young lad growing up in NJ in the summer of '69 I remember Cubs fans chanting "Ho, ho, ho Ten in a row." As the Mets came into town some 8-10 games back at that point after they had set a club record for consecutive wins. Well we all know how that summer worked out.

Yeh and I know how last summer worked out for the Mets too.

SA

I have kind of inherited this role in the unit I serve. The role serves more as a coach or guide to the scout so he avoids any potential administrative pitfalls that might trip him up on his last few steps towards earning the Eagle rank. I generally don't get too involve with the scout until he completes all the MB requirements. At that point I'll pull the Council's record and compare it to the Troop's advancement record and work with the council and scout to resolve any discrepancies, if any. (And there have been some.) Better at this point than when the scout turns in his final application.

Then I'll assist a scout in coming up with and reviewing his project ideas. Things like, "Have you checked with Rev. So & so? The CO may have some needs." or "Last year at the beach I noticed the town lifeguard towers were in pretty bad shape. Why don't you give the Recreation Dept. a call." I don't manage the project, but provide some ticklers and guidance to the candidate. The last project was a deck overlooking a marsh for bird and wildlife observation. Great project, but I cautioned the scout that this would be an ambitious project, not just due to the construction, but that he would end having to deal with several town beauracracies, wetlands commission, building dept., recreation dept. etc. He got it done, but understood my concerns about all the different agencies involved when it was done. He almost didn't get his Eagle because the agencies were notoriously slow in turning around permit applications, inspections, etc. But it was the scout, not I or his parents that delt with them.

Finally I'll review all their paperwork prior to submittal. Some of the candidates seem to think they can put in the same level of effort on the paper work that passed at their last Merit Badge University or Summer Camp Merit Badge effort. They get a little frustrated when I tell them, no you need to treat this like a College application. Type it out on the computer. Use spell and grammer check. Read it again to see if you think you need to add a period or word here or there. Reprint it to get ride of the soda stains on the paper, etc.

And I'll coach them a bit for their BOR. Remind them to relax. Be prepared to answer some scout trivia that they should have learned as a Tenderfoot, etc. Be prepare to discuss the points of the Scout Law, including Reverence. (As noted in the other thread, this can be a bit intimidating for a scout that comes from a family that does not attend Church regularly.)

Then I sit back and smile at their ECOH.

One other thought. I agree the Mentor pin has nothing to do with the position description above or as others have described. It should be an Honor given to someone the Eagle sees as having had a big influence on his efforts, other than his parents. My son suprised his Science Teacher/Drama Coach at his COH by giving him the Mentor pin. The teacher is a very popular teacher at the High School and also an Eagle Scout. He gave my son a lot of encouragement in the last few months of his efforts. He came to the COH wearing his Eagle medal, and it impressed a lot of the scouts that had known him as a High School Teacher and didn't know about his scouting background.

SA

I agree with what others have said might be considered routine labor. Basic maintenance, routine activities, etc. Painting might be considered routine maintenance. What did he want to build?

What's confusing is the statement regarding contractors. Like Beavah said almost anything an Eagle candidate might come up with could be contracted out. In fact one of my pet peeves is some of the recipient organizations tend to treat the Eagle candidate as a contrator and not a volunteer, organizing a project for $0. Or they agree on a project and then as the project progresses start asking for add ons, (and then the candidate does need to act like a contractor!)

If the issue is the scope and degree of effort for the project, that should be made clear. The contractor comment seems to confuse things.

SA

In our district the Eagle Application is submitted to the District, along with the Eagle Project Workbook. The last two EBORs were scheduled within 2 weeks of the submittal of the documents. Both Workbooks were around 30 pages +- and both were fairly substantial projects IMHO. 100 - 300 pages? I can't concieve of what information could be included that would increase the page count to that number. Maybe a personal biography of everyone that helped on the project?

Yeah. Someone needs to politely suggest the District Advancement Chair benchmark what he's doing compared to others around the country. A request for a Regional Review?

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

"is he an Eagle or not?"

If he completed the requirements at the time, including his project, (I don't mean he has to prove this, if he believes he completed them that's fine by me.)and he does as scoutldr suggests and recieves a positive response, then yes I would consider him an Eagle Scout. He should begin planning his ECOH

On the other hand, if he knows he did not fulfill all the requirements, over and above the MB requirements, then he should do as scoutldr suggests and if he gets a positive response he should respectfully write a letter to have his name removed from the rolls as an Eagle Scout and explain why.

SA

Thanks for the assist Ohio S.

My son's ECOH was held yesterday. Including letters from GWB, the Governor and our 2 Senators. Our local State Representative showed, as he has for all our Eagle COHs, and said a few words.

It was an emotional day to say the least. I pretty much held it together until Eagle son gave his talk. He thanked his friends, SM, Troop leaders, teachers etc. and then and asked the entire gathering to give a standing O to his mom & dad.

SA

Ed,

I suggest you go back and read TAHAWK's post on the previous page that quotes BSA training material on BORs.

SA

"I would have expected any adult leader not only be permitted to attend but also contribute to the meeting. "

Well any adult leader or parent can "observe" any scout activity. But any contribution to a PLC meeting, in theory, is at the descretion of the SPL. Without knowing anything other than what you posted, I'd guess the Lisabob may be on the right track.

In the unit I serve, we currently have too many adults attend the PLC and they have a tendancy to overwhelm the youth. It would be nice if the SM would step in and run some interference for the boys, but he tends to be non-confrontational. As much as I'd like to attend the meeting and have input, I don't want to add another adult presence.

Instead I tend to try and coach the SPL and PL offline about how deal with the adult presence. i.e. Be polite, but don't let the adults take over the meeting. It belongs to them. So far with limited success.

SA

Well the owner obviously can't follow directions or he/she's very disobedient. I mean is says right on the ticket, "KEEP THIS COUPON"!

SA

"Yeah it is pretty exciting stuff, roots and wings indeed. Another benefit seems to be a little more group cohesion. He went with some guys who are not always known for being helpful to each other and they all ended up working together and encouraging each other rather nicely from the sound of things. "

Yes, I've observed this behavior as well. The same group that gets on each other's nerves and gives each other grief during a week at a council summer camp gels into a crew after 5 days on the trail.

SA

I have to admit I'm skeptical of the staffing levels needed at the National and Council levels. I'd love to have an independent review done on the National organization, Councils and staffing by someone like Jack Welch.

I don't doubt there is a need for administrative staff, but in a shrinking organization, the beauracracy tends to take on a self fulfilling life of it's own.

SA

I also tend to respect those awards conferred by others. Particularly when the recipient has no idea they are getting the award. This shows me they did whatever they did to get the award with no thought of recieving an award. They just did it for the satisfaction they recieved by doing it. That someone else thought it was worthy of recognition was just a bonus.

SA

"I have to keep reminding myself that we're talking about a very small percentage of Scouts who will ever give us challenges, especially if they've made it to their EBOR."

Yes and I think we need to do the same thing about adult scouters who sit on EBORs. The overwhelming majority of which are conducted properly and with a positive outcome. I think on the forums we tend to focus on the few BORs that tend to go astray, and they are few and far between.

SA

"I'm just curious, would any of you who are willing to let your son camp alone (with other kids) in the wild, allow them to be home alone overnight (with other kids)? My parents would never have allowed either scenario, despite the fact that we were also "good" kids and scouts, too. "

Just got back from a week in Florida with SWMBO. No kids. Left 18 yo Eagle son to man the house, get himself to/from school activities etc. He had a few friends over one night for dinner. Other than having the kithchen not be as clean as I would have hoped for after leaving specific instruction to make sure all was in order before SWMBO returned all was fine. He was alive, house OK, no calls from the Police, Fire etc.

Now he is expected to go off the college next year and take care of himself. We would not have left him alone for a week at age 15. We have left he and his older brother home alone for a weekend before though. Ages 15 & 17. Same result.

Did we call? Sure. But basically they have proven themselves to be trustworthy. They know what is expected in our home and I trust them to meet those expectattions. So far they have not let me down and I have no reason to believe they would.

SA

WS,

Go, get excited have a good time. Listen to your guide. Do what they tell you to do.

Falling in the river, wetsuits, life jackets, what to do if the raft flips over, what to do if you encounter backcountry hill folk, or excaped convicts, etc. will all be reviewed by your guide when you get the "This is not Disneyland" speech I referred to earlier.

For the later two hazards I suggest you rent "Deliverance" with Burt Reynolds and Jon Voight and "The River Wild" with Meryl Streep.

Seriously if you go with a reputable outfitter/guide you'll be fine and have the time of your life....but it really isn't Disneyland.

SA

"You make it sound like we're womenfolk who buy shoes because they're cute and don't care if they fit. "

OK, I'm slowly backing away from GW to make sure I don't get hit in the crossfire.

SA