scoutingagain

If you go with an outfitter/guide they will most likely have wetsuits available to rent at a nominal fee.

SA

I don't know if it is usual practice, but it is not unusual for an SPL to attend committee meetings.

SA

"I would place my trust in an EBOR. I would place my trust in a Council Committee to select a qualified Council Advancement Chair."

Crewadv, I would agree. Which is why when a member of an EBOR abuses that trust by not recommending a qualified candidate for reasons having nothing to do with the requirements of the award, we who are here to serve the youth, are so disappointed.

SA

Our unit usually does a whitewater trip every other year and always with a professional outfitter. Whitewater trips really do get your blood pumping and it's always one of our best attended events.

I always love the part when the guide gives the newbies, the "This ain't no Disneyland park ride, so do what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it!" speech.

SA

If he's going with a youth contingent they will in all likelyhood be having at least one or more shakedown outings before they go.(At least they should be, heaven help them all if they don't!) If he participates in these, at 19 he should be fine. Remember the program is geared to 14-18 year olds.

If he can't make the crew shakedown outings, he should try and get out on a trail, with a buddy or two at least a couple of times. It is important these shakedowns be at least 2 nights. Just about any Tenderfoot can survive one night on the trail, stuff everything in a pack and hike out the next day. It's the cleaning, and packing stuff up, hiking all day and then using everthing again(i.e tent, stove, fuel, food, etc.) the NEXT day that's the tough part. He mostly needs to get comfortable with his equipment, pack, boots, sleeping bag etc.

If he's height/weight proportioned and in reasonable shape he should be able to keep up with the youth. He'll have a great time and wish he could have gone sooner.

SA

Yes, excellent.

We can now recall the helpful, curtious and kind scouters out there who were ready to seek out and rip off all unsanctioned UU religious awards from those disobedient youth miscreants that dared to defy the BSA Insignia Guide.

Now we only need to go after those pesky Wiccans.

SA

"IMO, this is where that particular EBOR should have gone. "

Absolutely.

A follow up discussion on how the scout came to his conclusion and pointing out other points of view would be fine. However holding up the scout's advancement because one adult didn't like the answer because he didn't agree with the scout's point was totally inappropriate. After the discussion the scout may or may not agree with the other point of view with respect to being Reverent. However the discussion has no bearing on whether or not the scout has met the requirements for Eagle and I would expect an adult volunteer at the District level to know better.

SA

"The District rep wanted to deny him his Eagle based on the response."

It's stuff like this that just scares me. How does an adult with this attitude towards a youth member that honestly answered a question get into such a position? The scout didn't say he wasn't reverent, he just indicated if he had to eliminate one element of the Scout Law which would it be and gave a reason. The scout apparently understood the desires of Baden Powell more so than the District Rep.

Jeesh.

SA

" The human cost will be huge."

This is absolutely true. There will be significant economic disruption that will result in costs, personal and financial to people. However, you also need to consider the costs to people if we continue down the road of seeking cheap oil. The gov't could subsidize the oil companies to keep gas relatively inexpensive to those on Main St. We can continue to drive high horsepower vehicles that get poor milage. We would continue to spit out exhaust gases that may or may not warm the planet, but they certainly increase incidence of lung cancer, asthma and other respiratory diseases. These costs need to be included in the availability of cheap fuel. This doesn't even include the trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives, and tens of thousands of Iraqi lives we've committed to securing a source of oil in the middle east.

I'm with Gern. I'd like to see gas at $4.00 - $5.00 a gallon. I love free market economics. At this price the great American inovation machine will figure out ways to derive energy from other sources. You won't need a grand government research program. The inovators will come up with fuel cell cars, high milage cars/trucks with horsepower, etc. that will still get us from point A to point B, at 70+ mph towing that troop trailer with all the unnecessary gear big troops take on large group outings. At that point we can tell the folks in the middle east to sell their oil to China at exhorbatant prices.

In the mean time we need to hope there is not a short term economic downturn of such signifigance that it lowers the demand for oil, driving the price down. This would discourage the inovators and delay development of new technologies.

SA

The eggs in the bag thing are fine for me.

I love the taste of phthalates in the morning.

Look at is this way, if we all keep cooking in plastic, the whole gender thing becomes pointless as we all tend towards becoming a single male/female monogender society.

SA

Barry and I seem be clarifying each other well.

Yes, the question was more rhetorical than anything. My first reaction to the intial post in the thread was, as many others, a scout is reverent, why would a question about God be out of line? But Pack's response got me thinking. I think open ended questions about reverence and duty to God are fair game. They are part of the oath and law. The scout can express his thoughts. Short of explicitly saying there is no God and he is not reverent to anyone or anything, just about any response a scout would have would likely not get him into trouble. The question would just initiate a discussion on the scouts approach to the spiritual side of scouting which I think is fine.

But I came around to Pack's way of thinking when I thought about the direct question, "Do you believe in God?" There seems to be no purpose to this question other than to try and trip up a scout and I wouldn't blame a scout for a wiseguy response. Belief in God as defined by who? The Board? That's not a requirement. I believe it is no more appropriate than asking a scout the direct question "Are you gay?" and now understand MacyM's initial inquiry a bit more.

I learned something in this thread. Thanks folks.

SA

Well I don't mean to speak for Barry, but I don't believe he meant what the sentence implies taken out of context of his discussion. I suspect he meant more that the EBOR process was to confirm the candidate had in fulfilled all the requirements, but I'll let him clarify further if he so desires.

Those requirements include a "Duty to God" and "Reverence". Asking a candidate how he fulfills those are legitimate areas of questions I think. Asking a direct question about the candidate's belief in God I think could be considered personal and is not a legitimate question. Belief in God in the Judea Christian Muslim sense is not a requirement and so such a question is not appropriate.

If asking a candidate if he believes in God is considered OK. A scout is supposed to also be Clean. Physically and morally as defined by the BSA. If being gay is considered immoral by the BSA would a legitimate question to a candidate be, "Are you gay?" Or would that be too personal?

SA

" The attitude is that if you specificaly seek out or make it clear you want a particular job, that that means you are automatically unqualified for the position and should not be given it. "

Well the solution to this issue is obvious. Simply volunteer for any position EXCEPT the one you want. Make is absolutely clear you are completely unqualified for that position. The simple laws of organizational bureaucracy will ensure that would be the only position made available to you.

Lisa,

One other source may be professional associations related to environmental professions. These professions have a vested interest in promoting their professions to young people who may have an interest in the enviroment and the outdoors and assisting like minded organizations.

SA

Well while the charter organization concept works on paper, the events described are a good example of what can happen when COs take a relatively hands off approach to their units and leaders. Sure COs are supposed to select and screen adult leaders but how many of us are involved with units where that simply just doesn't happen? The fact is many, many COs don't have much direct input or are very involved with the units they charter. The papers are signed as a formality and sent on to Council.

How many council execs are going to turn down a new charter application for new units given compensation incentives to start new units regardless of who is listed as unit leaders? The COs approved the leaders, what do they care? They get new units in their council.

When it all hits the fan the council simply says, hey its the COs problem, not mine.

In the mean time Scouting continues to recieve a black eye in the community, certainly isn't serving youth members and may be hurting the image of scouting overall.

A young volunteer steps forward ready to take on this windmill of a nightmare, asks for help from the forum and gets, sorry its not a BSA problem. Deal with the COs.

I think that summarizes things so far.

dpicarelli,

This is my suggestion. Forget the council. If you want to help your current unit, get the Chartering organization to name you as the Charter Organization Representative.(COR) This puts you in the drivers seat with respect to who gets to be a leader in your COs unit. You also have a vote at the council level and are more likely to be listened to by a council executive. But you can then select and screen leaders for the youth of your CO's unit. You can begin the process of rebuilding the trust between Scouting, your CO and your troop and pack membership. Focus on what you can do to help the youth of your CO.

Write a letter to the council executive as to why your CO has removed previous leaders from your unit.

Oh one last thing and this is really important.

If the CO's do choose to sue the council and you want to remain in scouting make sure you have nothing to do with the lawsuit. The quickest way to get blackballed from scouting short of openly declaring you are gay is to be involved in a lawsuit against a council.

In short, focus on what you can do to serve your unit locally. As an individual you have little effect on the bureacracy of scouting beyond that.

Good luck and I hope the youth you serve get the scouting experience they deserve.

SA

"But like any other award ceremony in the world, it should be hosted by the organization, with da awardees and their families as guests of honor."

Oh how I wish that were so. We're in the middle of planning our son's ECOH. I would have been happy to have the unit plan and execute it as a simple affair after a standard COH. Hand out a medal, shake some hands and have a piece of cake. But as Steve Martin would say...Nooooooo. SWMBO who has not had all that much to do with my son's scouting career other than to be a supportive mom that doesn't like to camp now sees something that she can do ! ( and is better at than I would be or the troop leader ship is.)! Hopefully my bank account and marriage survive.

SA

By their nature, BORs may tend towards some questions scouts may be uncomfortable with. This is where hopefully either another adult steps in to clarify the question or in the case of an Eagle BOR, if the question comes up with respect whether or not a scout believes in "God", the SM might clarify, as in "How do you show reverence?" or "How do you do your duty to God?" when the oath is stated. But the point I made in my previous post, is that this issue/discussion should take place several times before an Eagle BOR.

SA

Who knows?

Maybe by 2014 or 2015 the issues that prevent the USG supporting the Jamboree may be resolved?

I know scouts may be all hung up on the camping thing, but as noted in another thread Jamborees aren't really much like camping. How about using the facilities of a large state University for a couple of weeks during the summer? Schedule it between summer sessions. Dorms, dining halls, athletic facilities, arenas, stadiums, a lot of infrastructure that isn't used much that time of year.

SA

Welcome Macy and congradulations to your son.

I'm sure your son is not the only scout to be a bit suprised by such a personal question at an Eagle BOR, however he should not have been. Questions related to his faith, how he perceives the world around him and how he shows reverence should be a part of his ongoing advancement process starting from Scout and including all his other Boards of Review working up to his Eagle BOR. If they havn't, your troop is not fully serving the youth membership.

I can see how this might happen though in a unit that is essentially secular and does not include any type of religious activities. They may focus their internal BORs on scout skills and other advancement activities and not include questions related to the scout law, or specifically, reverence. Then a scout stands in front of a District or Council BOR or BOR member and has a whole set of questions related to stuff he hasn't experienced in his scouting world. That's dissapointing since some element of focusing a scout on how he chooses to be reverent should be part of his scouting experience.

Macy,

It sounds like your son's BOR was a good one. They may have probed and got your son to think about his faith or at least what he thinks about how we came to be and where we're going. He apparently responded with some positive acknowledgement that there could be more going on than just a set of random physical and chemical reactions in the universe, which is about all he would need to do.

I hope your son continues to think about such things and finds a path he is comfortable with and that he continues his involvment with scouting.

SA

Actually Muslim units are among the fastest growing BSA units here in the USA, at least in this area.

As far as the article goes, I would assume that everyone that supports BSA's right to free association based on religious and moral beliefs would support Muslim women in their desire to enjoy the same right.

SA

"I think the thread is about using what the Organization prescribes v. using what works - as long as it doesn't directly offend the Organization. "

Exactly!

SA

BW, the statement that caught my eye was:

""The idea now is, 'If it helps Joe do the mission, let him have it as long as it's not hot pink,' " says Army veteran Logan Coffey, founder of Tactical Tailor, a custom-maker of packs and pouches in Lakewood, Wash. "It's a giant change" in the military mind-set, he says in a phone interview. "

There have been several threads discussing this issue in the Uniforms section. Here's an example of one uniformed organization apparently relaxing it's uniform standards to better accomplish it's mission. If the word "military" was removed from this paragraph and "scouting" inserted, do folks think a more relaxed approach towards the uniform method might make accomplishing the mission of of scouting easier, better, more difficult?

Some members of this forum have essentially already answered the question in previous posts. I thought they might be interested in knowing that the US Military seems to have come to a similar conclusion.

I'm referencing the article and asking the question for purposes of general discussion among a friendly group of scouters in a campfire atmosphere.

SA

I see this is a judgement call on the part of the adults. They have to drive and deal with the road conditions. Ultimately each individual driver can make that decision but I think it is better for the group to come to a consensus.

We have an outing planned for the same weekend and will be facing the same weather system, and decision making issue. We will probably make the decision in the parking lot Sat. a.m. based on the absolute latest weather forcast.

SA

Given a number of threads in this section on the general topics of uniform purity vrs field function and occaisional comparison of scouting uniforms to military wear I thought members of the forum would find the article below of interest. Seems like scouts and scouters are not the only ones modifying their uniforms to meet their needs unofficially and it appears as if some of that is becoming officially sanctioned.

SA

By Patrik Jonsson

Thu Mar 6, 3:00 AM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080306/ts_csm/abattleshop

FORT BENNING, Ga. - Commando Military Supply on Victory Drive here is about as different from a musty Army surplus store as you can imagine.

More REI than M.A.S.H., Commando is regularly jam-packed with deploying grunts and sergeants, poking around for custom gear including $200 flashlights, $150 Oakley protective sunglasses, $180 Thinsulate boots, and $20 thermal socks.

"When you're comfortable and you know where all your gear is, it makes you a better fighter," says Lt. Tucker Knie, an Army Ranger perusing custom ammo pouches and techno-fiber socks. "You don't want to be rummaging around in your pocket during a firefight."

The traditional Army credo is that it's guts that win the glory not fancy long-johns or Oakley sunglasses. But that old-school thinking is wicking away like perspiration through Gore-Tex as US soldiers today go beyond military-issue battle dress uniforms in favor of top-of-the-line gear to help them get home in one piece and look sharp, too.

One reason, critics say, is that military procurement, especially of life-saving equipment, is still too slow. Quietly, however, the Pentagon with the Army leading the charge has begun bypassing rigid procurement rules, loosening uniformity requirements, and even spearheading technical innovations in gear, ranging from flame-retardant shirts to low-infrared signature zippers.

"The idea now is, 'If it helps Joe do the mission, let him have it as long as it's not hot pink,' " says Army veteran Logan Coffey, founder of Tactical Tailor, a custom-maker of packs and pouches in Lakewood, Wash. "It's a giant change" in the military mind-set, he says in a phone interview.

Since 9/11, the market for tactical war gear has expanded from nearly nonexistent to nearly $150 million in sales each year, which includes sales directly to soldiers as well as to the Pentagon, according to industry sources.

CIA operatives, domestic SWAT teams, and Border Patrol agents are also rounding out their gear at bazaars like Commando.

To some critics, the sight of soldiers buying their own battle gear symbolizes a divide between frontline grunts and rear echelon procurement officers who may never have seen battle. Rep. Gene Taylor (D) of Mississippi told the House Armed Services Committee last week that supplies such as body armor and uparmored Humvees "[have] taken entirely too long" to get to frontline troops.

In some cases, charity groups have stepped in to help. Operation Helmet, founded by Bob Meaders of Montgomery, Texas, shipped special helmet liners to soldiers to replace what many soldiers said were poorly designed helmet pads issued by the Army and the Marines. Just as Operation Helmet thought its work was done late last year, more requests came in from troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"The Army is planning a $20 billion future combat system, and they can't provide boots that don't wear out," says Roger Charles, editor of DefenseWatch, an investigative website that advocates on behalf of frontline soldiers. "There's no priority for taking care of relatively mundane items where most people would think, 'Gosh, that's so simple. Why don't they have the best boots, the best uniforms, the best helmets, and the best flak jackets?' "

But through new and rejuvenated efforts like Program Executive Office (PEO) Soldier, the Soldier Battle Lab here at Fort Benning, and Soldier Systems Center in Natick, Mass., the Army has quickened the supply chain, sometimes against daunting odds, experts say.

For example, PEO Soldier's Rapid Fielding Initiative recently turned around an order for special mountain boots for units in Afghanistan in a month's time. "The Army has never been able to field such updated equipment so quickly before," says Lt. Col. John Lemondes, head of Clothing and Individual Equipment at Fort Belvoir, Va. "We really are moving at the speed of lighting with respect to equipping the war effort."

And at Ft. Lewis, Wash., one unit commander is putting an array of new protective glasses to the test this month. The unit will use discretionary funds to buy the glasses the soldiers prefer.

Moreover, the Army and Air Force Exchange Service reports that sales of tactical gear to units have climbed from $60 million in 2005 to $90 million in 2007. At the same time, there's evidence that soldiers are spending less of their own money on gear: One study found that two years ago, marines were spending $400 of their own money on extra gear; last year, they spent an average of only $100.

"The military is now doing a pretty good job of outfitting the war fighters with what they need, and a lot of it comes from effort and real caring," says Drumm McNaughton, a Navy veteran and management consultant who has written about the struggles of military procurement.

Because little enhancements can make a big difference, soldiers often choose to pick up their own "dirty packs" to augment the issued gear, especially as many feel flush from combat bonuses.

"What's 100 bucks for a flashlight if it's going to work during an attack, and help you fend off a knife fight?" says a Commando clerk, who didn't want to be named because he wasn't authorized to speak by the store manager.

But many soldiers don't blame the Army. One lieutenant shopping at Commando says standard issue gear is usually good enough. His one complaint: the clunky Army cap, which has a thick bill that can't be formed baseball-style. "They need to change it," he says. "It makes you look like a dork."

Even in life and death situations, fashion means something on the battlefield, soldiers say. "The Army does issue everyone glasses, but the young soldier wants to look cool, fashionable. He wants to look sexy," says Mr. Coffey.

The sales growth in custom tactical gear is partly made possible by manufacturing advances that allow companies to make profit on small batch orders. But for war fighters, a perk to the hard slog is being allowed to put their own spin on the Army look.

"One of the basic tensions is that in the Army there's pressure for a strong collective identity ... to develop this feeling of belongingness and camaraderie," says Frederic Brunel, a marketing professor at Boston University. "At the same time, there is a basic human need to pull away from that ... [to] retain some sense of self-identity that is separate from the group identity."

Sorry, but real coffed is not made in Tea bags.

SA

Yes those are the requirements I was refering to. They are no longer required for 1st class. You have an old book and an old work sheet. The 2008 Advancement Requirements book will have the most up to date Advancement Requirements.

The National Website also posts advancement requirements at http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/firstclass.aspx .

You will see as scoutldr posted, the survival skills requirement is no longer a 1st class requirement.

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)