scoutingagain

Agree 100% with Pack. Business should have no more input on an employee's health insurance than they do their car insurance. Period. My employer is currently going through the spectacle of requireing employees to sign a waiver to medical privacy laws and requiring employees to submit blood analysis results for the employee and all others in a family covered by a group health plan to a 3rd party to review as part of a "wellness" program. This is a natural consequence of employer subsidized health insurance.

"as I understand it the protection of BSA v. Dale no longer applies" The First Amendment is still the First Amendment. Under Local Option, those private COs will still have the right of free association and the right to discriminate against homosexual leaders if they choose to do so, just as they currently can do with respect to gender or religion. The only change would be if the BSA were to treat sexual orientation the way they do race or national origin.

As far as the article goes, it seems to me the school district might be able to limit access to facilities to all groups that do not subscribe to the school's anti-discrimination policies and those may include sexual orientation. However they would have apply the policy to all organizations that discriminated against a protected class, and could not single out the scouts alone. As pointed out, one of the consequences of being a private club that chooses to engage in descriminatory membership policies.

SA

This is very sad news. As fellow scouters I have a lot of respect for all that participate in the forums. But OGE was one that really stood out among us. He will be sorely missed and my thoughts an prayers go out to his family.

SA

Yes, I also have to agree with Mr. Paul. In addition to the F35s, the US has 10 aircraft carriers in service, several in reserve and we're building a couple more. The only other country with more than one in service is Italy with 2. No other country has more than 1 and I'm not particulary concerned about a suprise attack from the Italians. Washington just doesn't get it.

As a government contractor I've seen my share of waste. A moron could find 85 billion to cut from the current Federal spending. Obama blew it. He should have taken the Republican offer to have the authority to administer the cuts where needed. No one wants to take the responsiblity for cutting some special interest's funding. I see the Republicans have introduced legislation to mitigate the impace on their special interests, i.e. the Defense Dept. Thoroughly disgusted with our President and legislators from both parties.

SA

Like NJ I'll believe the mass exodus when I see it. There may be a small number of COs that pull out, but most once they understand they are free to continue to discriminate based on sexual orienatation will stay on.

1. Loss of a CO doesn't necessarily mean loss of a unit. In many cases another CO can be found that would support a unit either allowing or not allowing gay members.

2. How many Christian congregations have folded because some other Christian congregations accept gay members?

SA

I don't think our unit would be affected much. Might allow us to recruit some families who have in the past avoided scouting due to the membership policy. Our CO is a "Welcoming" Methodist congregation and would accept a gay applicant if one were to show up and there was no other reason not to sign them up. There have been one or two local units that have had to scramble to find new COs because of the current policy. There have been other potential COs that have refused to sponsor units due to the current policy. (The COs in question have been churches.) So overall I'm not aware of any units that are in "danger" and it's likely there would be more churches and other organizations that would be willing to be COs if the policy were to change to local option.

SA

All I know is anyone driving a Nissan Titan in Southern California, should immediatly stop wherever they are and move away from the vehicle.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html

SA

Agreed. Hugh PR mess. This keeps the spotlight on the BSA on this issue for months. Both sides will harden their positions and make the ultimate decision more difficult to take for either side. Makes a schism in scouting more likely than less.

SA

"But if the my son were 13, and he a 17-y.o. gay kid joins his patrol, the two of them is going to be a BIG problem. Likewise, if I have an 11-year old in the troop and found out there was an older gay Scout in the troop, I would be greatly concerned."

And and solution is pretty simple. Join a unit that doesn't accept gay members. There may be some initial reshuffling of units, but it won't be long until everyone can find a unit that meets their needs. The majority I suspect will stay where they are.

The tent sharing arrangements are not complicated. Two self identified gay scouts/leaders don't tent together. They tent alone or with a heteroscout/leader who is comfortable with the arrangment.

SA

"And who do you think the "unseen power" might be?"

Dick Cheney

SA

So let me get this straight. The NRA's current position is that we should be focusing on mental health issues, maybe a mental health registry but there shouldn't be background checks to see if a prospective buyer is on those registries or has a history of mental health problems?

SA

"How many adult leaders will now have to decide if they want to risk being named in lawsuits for following the CO's policy? "

0, Nada, Zip. Especially since unit leaders do not decide the CO's policy. They simply comply with it.

The same number that currently have to decide if they want to risk being named in a lawsuit for following a CO's policy of religious or gender discrimination.

SA

So what national pressure is there on Catholic churches to accept Gay priests? or even members?

Yes, units will have to stand by their own principles. They won't be able to hide behind a national policy. Assuming the change in policy goes through, I'm perfectly comfortable with the unit across town sponsored by the local Catholic church continuing to select their leadership anyway they want. The Methodist Church that sponsors our unit would likely accept a gay indivisual, assuming there are not other issue to prevent membership. But I'm not aware of a long list of gay prospects chomping at the bit to sign up.

SA

Sentinel,

It was a local case over 10 years ago. Involved a trusted Spl and Eagle Scout. In MA one can be treated as an adult in the court system at 17. I'd have a hard time finding local press on the case at this point.

SA

Eagle candidate may have been denied advancement, but that's not the same as membership revokation. And in most cases once they are 18, then they were kicked out. Or for some other made up excuse like, didn't follow a duty to God.

But I do have to correct myself. This is the latest quote I could find on the scouting legal website on the current policy. While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.

It would seem to include avowed youth as well as avowed adults. Ironically I could only find this in the press release from July that affirmed the fact they had no intention of changing.

FWIW I am aware of a case of a older youth(17) that did make sexual advances towards a younger scout. More than advances, in Massachusetts the perpatrator was charged and tried as an adult and served some time and is now registered as a sexual offender.

SA

" BSA potential policy change does NOT limit the conversation to adult leaders only."

MOMTOELI, I was referring to the old or current policy. That policy only excludes membership to avowed adult homosexuals. Youth are seen as asexual. There is no specific policiy that currently excludes gay youth members that I am aware of. It is a common misperception that the current or old policy applies to youth as well.

SA

EXACTLY! Those that want to "happily discriminate", well they are free to continue to do so. If they do and continue to run their program the way they have, they don't have to worry about tenting arrangements anymore than they have in the past.

Those CO's that do open their membership will have to consider it. But since the BSA's official policy only addressed avowed, adult homosexuals, the issue of youth on youth abuse has always been there and units can continue to deal with it the same way they do now. For adults, the issue has been asked and answered. Two gay men, are they a couple? Are they married? If not to either one, they don't tent together. They either tent with another adult that's OK with it or alone. As noted, due to snoring many of our adults tent alone now. No big deal.

We deal with potential attractions in Venture scouting and it's no big deal. The rest of the world seems to deal with it just fine and scouting lives on. But like I said, simply continue to discriminate if you wish and you won't have to worry about it.

SA

There should be ample precendent with respect to potential litigation regarding denying gay adults membership in a specific CO's unit. COs are currently allowed to discriminate based on gender. How many lawsuits have been filed by women because they couldn't join a specific CO and has the BSA defended the CO?

If this is a serious issue, there should be many cases available to cite since half the population is female. And please don't cite any cases involving employment law. These are volunteer positions and not the same as a paid employee.

SA

Jeepers Creepers. So many threads. So many posts it's hard to keep up. I had to respond to this one though.

"I would cheerfully discriminate against a gay man who wanted to go camping with teenaged boys. "

And with the new proposed policy you are completely welcome to do just that. There is absolutely nothing in the new policy that prevents a CO from continuing to discriminate based on sexual orientation just as they always have.

SA

Jeepers Creepers. So many threads. So many posts it's hard to keep up. I had to respond to this one though.

"I would cheerfully discriminate against a gay man who wanted to go camping with teenaged boys. "

And with the new proposed policy you are completely welcome to do just that. There is absolutely nothing in the new policy that prevents a CO from continuing to discriminate based on sexual orientation just as they always have.

SA

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. "

Groucho Marx

Seriously there may be some press going forward. Someone will want to highlight the 1st Gay SM, just as I'm sure there were articles about the early female scoutmasters.

But in the long run this would be a good decision for the organization. Get's it off the front line of the culture war. There will be some that leave because the unit across town accepted a gay leader but I doubt there will be many.

SA

I think the bigger question with respect to the longterm growth and health of the scouting movement in the USA is why do these firms, that want to appeal to a broad segment of the American market, feel they should no longer associate themselves with the BSA?

SA

I confess our home has never been invaded. Heck half the time our door are unlocked. I live in a modest house, on a quiet street that has been invaded my mcmansions. I figure anybody looking to break in, is going to look at my house, look at my neighbors and realize the pickin's across the street are going to be much better, and they'd be right.

We did have a home invasion in town last week. Turns out the invaded home was a grow house for marijuana. Seems like the vast majority of home invasions involve drugs/gangs or other questionable activities. I have to wonder what's going on in someone's home that they feel like their a likely target.

This past fall, in CT not too far from Newtown, a father shot his own son entering a neighbors house where his daughter was babysitting. The kid had decided to try and scare his sister and called dad about someone lurking outside the house.

Like BD, I'll defend my family with whatever I have. However, in an the off chance someone decides to invade my house to take our stuff instead of the better stuff across the street, their welcome to it. 1st defense for us out the door and call the cops. Then call the insurance co. Have no desire to get into a shoot out unless lives are at stake.

Other Rambos can lay down their lives for their flat screen TV.

SA

All these tax proposals smack of Tax and Spend Democratic policies. Republicans would simply cut taxes, pretend economic growth would magically appear to cover the costs of increased spending. Until that magic appears, simply run a deficit to be paid later.

SA

"Are you concerned about the lead concentrations at hundreds of Scout camp shooting ranges? "

If I were a developer considering purchasing a scout camp to develop into condos, yes.

If I were a council exec, considering selling my council camp, yes.

SA