scoutingagain

At some level the organization needs to decide if it's going to be a scouting organization serving those interested in participating in a scouting organization or if it's a business that needs to modify it's product/service to meet the needs of as many potential consumers as possible.

SA

I was also wondering how they managed to do scouting in Mexico, Spain and other Latin American Countries.

The biggest obstacle scouting in the US has in attracting scouts outside it's typical demographic is the perception that it's well, a white, middle class, Christian organization and a lack of volunteer leaders that from other demographics that have scouting experience.

Personally I think it's a mistake to target a single group for outreach. I would prefer a broader approach showing how open scouting is. While I feel it could open it doors a bit more, it's far more open than the public generally percieves.

SA

I thought activist judges were simply those that made decisions we disagreed with.

SA

I don't believe the unit described represents the majority of scout units. In fact I hope it represents a small minority. It does not represent the unit I serve. All our candidates complete their own paperwork. Sure it is reviewed and commented on by at least one adult leader and the the candidate is coached on how to improve/correct the documents. But then the candidate is to do them. As noted, sometimes it's 2 or three iterations. Then the SM and CC will sign them for submittal to council.

As others have noted, the level of detail and quality of presentation varies considerably from candidate to candidate, especially the first draft. For many scouts, they have never had a document scrutinized to this level before. It's part of the learning experience.

Heck, I've been in the adult workforce for over 30 years now and if I have a major document/project going to a client or my boss's boss, I get the same treatment.

SA

SA

One of the things I sometimes do at a COH is publicly ask an up and coming likely Eagle candidate what he needs to do to achieve the next rank. One characteristic of all the Eagle scouts I know of in the unit I serve is that when asked this question they all can rattle off exactly what they need to to do. ie. 2 more Eagle required MBs and complete service as PL or 1 more MB and 2 more hours of service work, etc.

This demonstrates to other scouts and more importantly their parents as to what kind of attention they need pay to the advancement process if Eagle is one of the scout's goals. Keep in mind for many it isn't.

I have to agree, at 17 I would expect a scout to know exactly what he needs to do to achieve rank if that's what he wants to do.

SA

NC,

As noted in the first reply, First Aid MB is a requirement, not a pre-requisite. As an EP MBC I would have no problem with the approach you describe. Scouts would not be signed off on an EP merit badge until they could show me at least a signed blue card or other documentation they had earned First Aid MB, but I would not prohibity them from working on other requirements until then.

But that's me.

Ultimately a scout has to demonstrate to the satisfaction of an individual MB counselor that they have met the requirements for a specific MB. Other MBCs may have a different interpretation than I do.

SA

Well to be totally sexist, the most obvious reason to keep California is the girls. Or maybe they could refilm Bay Watch on the Maine Coast.

SA

There's lots of good advice here but let me list some common problems you may want to consider. We are a New England unit that camps year round. Some of our best most memorable outings have been in February in the White Mountains of NH.

Good for you for being willing to help the scouts out to take on this idea.

Many folks are not used to being outside in the winter for long periods of time. Staying outside for 8 - 10 - 24 - 48 hours means you really need to follow the advice to dress in layers and having extra clothing. Avoid cotton. (There is a saying the boys have in our unit, "Wear cotton and you die.") Being outside all the time is much more challenging than just going outside for a couple of hours, getting a little chilled and coming inside to warm up in a lodge or warming hut and then going back out again, which is what most of the boys are used to.

Dress for the outdoors. That means good winter boots, no running shoes or sneakers. That may seem obvious but for 10 - 13 year olds don't bet on it, especially if they've never winter camped before. It means a good winter hat that covers the ears,(for some scouts this is a new experience, but not looking as "cool" as one can beats frostbite). Wear good winter gloves or mittens. Have several pair, as sure as heck I can guarantee at least one scout will lose a pair of gloves, or at least one glove, gets them wet, drop them in the fire, etc. Same goes for socks.

It seems every year we have to send a scout home to redress for our winter outing. Some really have never spent that much time outdoors in the winter and are truely unprepared even after a long precampout instructional session on winter camping. I don't mind them getting a little cold, but I like to bring them home with all their fingers, toes and ears in working order.

Jackets and pants should be waterproof or resistant. If there is snow on the ground you can be sure scouts will play in the snow. Once they get wet, with no place to warm up other than a fire, they are nearly certain to get cold.

Winter camping can be a great time. It is a real challenge and with proper planning and preparedness is really fun. I've noted before, there is nothing like looking at a winter night sky when it's so cold the air itself seems frozen. There is real satisfaction in taking on an outdoor challenge. But don't kid yourself. Nearly anyone can survive a spring, summer or early fall weekend even if they forget their sleeping bag, set of clothes, food etc. On a winter campout forgeting a crucial item can mean a real hazard.

Your tents should be fine, just be sure the boys have good warm sleeping bags. As noted a 15 degree bag with a liner will be fine in most cases, unless by Midwest you mean upper MI, .

While frostbite is one extreme, read up and be on the lookout for hypothermia. Be prepared to provide cold weather first aid. If this is your first true winter outing go somewhere, where you can set up a warming hut or have access to your vehicles in case some one really does get cold.

Best of luck.

SA

True Conservatives would support the idea of smaller, and less government involvment with the private sector. Of course Liberals would support the idea of government support and involvment in private organizations.

SA

We have a code of conduct. The unit recites it before every meeting and it is discussed with individual scouts at every BOR. Occassionally we have scheduled BORs with individual scouts to discuss the CoC outside of the advancement process. Sometimes with have discussed the CoC with a scout in the presence of his parents. These generally have been rare though.

Our CoC consists of 12 basic points and an Oath.

The CoC and Oath were developed nearly 100 years ago. Our unit merely follows the guidelines set forth by the originators of the CoC an Oath.

SA

Personally I'm not a big fan of trailers to begin with. As far as I'm concerned if it doesn't fit in a backpack it shouldn't go on the trip.

But, others in the forum have mentioned this, in addition to items 1-3 mentioned by nldscout, if you do have a trailer, it is a good idea to have it clearly marked as a BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, TROOP X, Somewhere, USA Trailer in BIG letters with the logo and color scheme if you can.

An unmarked trailer sitting in a parking lot is a trailer that a prospective thief is likely to believe is full of expensive contractor equipment and tools, or even better, sound equipment and instruments for a band. All items that would fetch a lot more on eBay than some used dutch ovens, tents and cook kits.

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

The unit I serve has always been in the community's Memorial Day and Veteran's Day parade.

It is an expectation that has always been there and they boys tend to be in their uniform best.

Now as far as marching goes, we had one dad with former military experience try and get the boys to march to cadence once and the Committee Chair had a mild freak out, ranting about how scout units are not military and should not march. She is long gone. And the question of marching has recently resurfaced.

Just a few months ago a rep from the VFW hall stopped by a meeting. They told us they really appreciate the scouts participation, but wondered why we didn't march. It was a bit of an embarassment to explain why(not wanting to appear military and all). Having explored this a bit further at the local level we have decided to try marching again and the VFW has agreed to supply some instruction on basic drills. We'll see how it goes next May.

But we've never had an issue with participation. We have had some issue with individual scouts at the High School level, but generally the Jr. High Schoolers show up. Many of the High Schoolers are in the HS Band or other organization that also participate in the parade and they march with their peers in other organizations.

SA

Our District follows a process similar to John-in-KC's.

There is no fixed time. One the candidate completes all his paperwork and it is turned into council, the paper work is reviewed. Then the DAChair notifies the SM the paperwork has been reviewed and the SM sets up a time and place for the review, convienient to the scout, DAChair or his representative(another member of the DACommittee), and other members of the Board. They are usually other troop committee members.

SA

Beavah has it right, and I have no reason to doubt his math.

The US Govt. does not have the money it is currently committing to bailouts of CitiCorp, Banks, auto industry etc. It is borrowing the money from others that have it( i.e China, Saudia Arabia, and others.) About the only good news is that prople are still willing to lend the US Govt. money.

So like any other loan, you can have your $$ today as long as you or your heirs are willing to pay more later. We have probably already crippled the economic status of our sons and daughters with just the initial debt run up in the 8 years plus. We're beginning now to stick it to our grandchildren.

For many of us we consider our parents part of the "Greatest Generation." What will future generations consider us?

SA

I don't think anyone is talking about a state run industry. However there are strategic national interests to provide some type of support to a new fledgling auto industry. Be it tax breaks, loans, whatever. This is not unusual, epsecially at the state and local level.

A couple of new auto companies emerging from Chapter 11, free from current labor and pension obligations could be competitive. But it would be a much smaller industry, employing far fewer employees at lower wages.

The airlines went through this a few years ago. And while some are still flying, (United, Continental) they shed their union contracts, laid off thousands, reduced routes and became more competitive. Others were lost. Eastern, TWA, Pan Am. It can be done and it's painful. Ask those who worked for TWA. And as noted, don't the rest of us won't feel some.

SA

Uh, you do know McCain essentially supported the same type of cap & trade system don't you?

And is a full believer in the data that implicates human activity as a contributer to global warming.

So on this issue, it's doubtful you would see much difference between McCain and Obama. Other than McCain likely would have been more aggressive on accelerating the construction of nuclear power plants. Which a cap & trade system will encourage anyway.

SA

As noted I'm not in favor of forking over government $$ as is that's for sure.

But, I think it's a matter of overall long term economic health for the US and national defense that we retain a heavy manufacturing capability in this country. And I believe there is room for a going concern or two manufacturing cars in this country. Just not the way the big 3 and UAW do it.

I'd be willing to discuss short term loans, to be paid back before any dividends are paid or stockholder equity created. But I'd do so only with those that file Chapter 11 and are truely willing to reorganize under a new cost model. As far a customers not buying cars from Chapter 11 firms, this is already happening. The big three have consumers so scared now, who's going to buy a vehicle from a company when the CEO says they may go out of business in a couple of months. In addition to loans there may be some considertion of guaranteeing warrantees for a period to provide buyers some sense of stability.

A couple of thoughts.

SA

As noted I'm not in favor of an auto bailout. But no one should think that this will not effect the US economy overall and especially in the upper midwest. The exact no. of jobs that go away is a guess, but it will be a lot. And it will effect not just the midwest but the rest of us as well. The market is already beginning to price in the effect of the coming reorganization of the Auto industry. Obama has little to do with it.

I agree there will be some kind of US Auto industry that resurects itself one way or the other. But one of the big three will probably not survive and be absorbed or merged. Total employment in the industry will drop signigicantly and those that survive will be making a lot less money than they are now. Those that find other jobs, will be making even less than those that survive in the auto industry. That means less for them to spend on other goods and services from the rest of us. Yep, no more vacation homes in SC. That will effect builders, resturants etc, in the southeast. No more Florida vacations, more impact there. No more ski vacations to the Rockies. They will buy fewer computer, TVs furniture etc. Fewer transportation and retail jobs. There will be fewer taxes collected. As people move out there will be a less of a need for teachers, police firefighters etc. With fewer people in MI do they really need two big state univerisities? Can they even support both?

It will have a monumental effect on the economy. But it will happen sooner or later, one way or the other.

SA

I hear yah Anarchist. That's why I'm a qualified no. As an investor I might consider putting $$ into the auto industry if they showed they were really ready to make substantive changes. But I don't see any of what you're proposing coming from the industry or UAW. They don't seem to get it. As far as Chapt. 11 goes, who's ready to go out and buy a big three vehicle now? At least in Chapt. 11 they could effectively renogiate with labor and get their cost structure down and maybe be able to make a profit on a $15,000-$20,000 vehicle, that would sell. They have some models that are as good as the imports in milage, quality and performance. They just can't make money on them given their current labor costs. Either way, tens of thousands of jobs are going to go away in the industry.

The only way I see them making the needed changes is Chapt. 11. Then, I might be willing to have the govt. lend the new companies some dough to restart the US auto industry, with conditions.

I might add I would have made the same condition to the Banks. No govt. money until all stockholder money is used first. Then recaptalize the reorganized banks, with conditions on compensation, lending etc. Right now there is no stigma or down side for a bank to take govt. money. At least not enough to dissuade otherwise healthy banks from lining up.

As Beavah noted, the financial industry bailout is becoming somewhat of a joke. Everyone is trying to figure out how to game the system and get their share. Make me a bank so I can qualifiy. Maybe the big three should reclassify themselves as banks so they can get the financial industry $$$. Makes as much sense as those currently lining up at that trough. The way the current bailout is playing out, I have no desire to repeat that fiasco in autos.

And there is a big downside. Hold onto your hats when GM does go Chapt. 11. The initial economic black hole that will create will be felt by everyone.

SA

The $74/hr figure is the total labor cost, including wages, benefits, pension contributions etc. It also includes overtime pay. According to the UAW website, average straight time wages are around $28 - $32/hr. However, add in nearly fully paid health care, vacations, pension benefits, overtime etc. and the $74/hr figure is very believeable, if not low. It's more than the fully loaded labor rate for most of our engineers and scientists. Given a little overtime here and there and it's very believable a UAW couple could be bringing in a combined income of $100 - $120k/yr or more plus benefits available to no one else. Not a bad deal for someone with a High School education.

If there is going to be a US Auto industry in the future several things will need to happen.

1. Labor costs will need to come down. Period.

2. Non-profitable plants, models, brands, will need to close. There will be many, many jobs lost. GM has how many brand names it's trying to support in a shrinking market?

3. Consumers will end up paying more $$ for cars. This is the flip side. When the Big three restructure or fold, you can be sure prices for cars from the surviving companies both foriegn and domestic will go up.

These three things will happen sooner or later, regardless of a bailout. Without a bailout they will happen sooner and the industry can begin to move on.

So my vote is a qualified no.

SA

There's the Minuteman Council's Camp Sayre.

http://www.bsaboston.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=22000&orgkey=1917

There's Wampatuck State Park

http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/southeast/womp.htm

They also have a separate designated camping area for scout units.

And finally, for something a little different you might want to check out the Boston Harbor Islands.

http://bostonharborislands.org/

Good luck.

SA

Well, it seems they didn't do anything many of the so called financial geniuses on Wall Street did over the last several years. They simply signed a credit instrument they couldn't afford and didn't understand. No different than the geniuses at Lehman Bros., AIG, and hundreds of other institutions now being bailed out by the Govt.

Their only mistake was not being friends with people that could get them taxpayer money to bail them out.

SA

The $3 Trillion figure I gave came from an article I can't seem to find now. There are several sites trying to track the $700 Billion, BailoutSlueth.com is one.

The floodgates seem to have been opened with this. I've read some 1800 banks, many who don't need the money, have lined up for a piece of the redistribution. AMEX has applied to be reclassified as a bank to get their share. Genworth was told no, so they're in near bankrupty. They must not be tight with the right people which seems to be the primary criteria as to who gets bailed and who gets to fail.

The Auto manufacturer's want in as well. Now I'm reading the parts manufacturer's and dealers also want a piece.

While I'm pragmatice to believe things are in a sufficient mess some government involvment may be necessary, but these companies and their executives are just slurping this up like it's free money. No pain, no consequences and there's no end in sight.

As Beavah note, socialism isn't coming, it's here.

Forget the $700 Billion. Over the last 3-6 months the current administration has committed to the redistribution of over $3 Trillion of our money and our childrens money.

A rough ride is putting it mildly. I don't think any of us under the age of 80 have ever lived through what's coming. At one point I figured we be in a typical deep recession similar to the early 90's. Now I'm not so sure. It's likely to be worse than any of us have ever experienced.

SA

As Beavah note, no one should be concerned about a future socialist government. We've already got one.

SA