scoutingagain

While what makes a good firestarter is a good thread, this really shouldn't have anything to do with firestarters. We've kind have lost the tree here in the forest.

2Eagles and Barry are correct. This is a learning moment for your son. He will always run into an authority figure who is on the wrong side of an issue or incorrect, at least from your son's perspect and maybe yours as well, but they are the authority. Whether its a teacher, professor, boss, whoever.

The Den leader has the authority to determine what he wants or doesn't want presented to his Den, for whatever reason. It's not subject to a vote, unless the Den leader wants it to be. Could be the best idea in the world and if he doesn't buy it... well.

So your son should learn when to move on and when to make an issue of things. If the Den Leader's ideas put his den in danger that's one thing. Otherwise it's maybe best to let it go and when the cubs get to be scouts and he is a PL he can show them what he knows about firestarters. Support your son, let him know you thought is was a good idea but Mr. X has other ideas for his den. He shouldn't take it personally.

SA

" How do I get my scouts to be more efficient with their time?.

For at least one crew of scouts in our unit this was solved. We did a couple of shake down hikes for a summer high adventure hike at High Knoll in the Blue Ridge Mountains council scout reservation. One of the critiques that came out of the shake downs was that the scouts took a long time to cook, clean and pack up. They were told that on the outing if they didn't get their act together they may not have time at the various campsites to participate in the site activities if they arrived too late. The scouts assured us they would be ready. Well the scouts we're up and at 'em every morning and ready to go before the adults were during the outing. The adults were very pleased with their response.

So I think the answer is, what's happening after the meal? If there is no defined activity the scouts want to participate in, well who cares if it takes three hours to cook a meal. If there is something going on they want to do, but know they can't do it until the meal is cooked and area properly cleaned, they'll get it done.

SA

As others have noted there is no "rule". It's too cold to camp when any one individual decides it's too cold. These are voluntary activities, no one is required to attend. The event is cancelled when there aren't enough adults available who think it's warm enough to camp.

The unit I serve camps year round in New England. We're from Massachusetts but routinely camp in New Hampsire and Maine. We did have one winter camp several years ago that turned into a survival weekend when temps dipped into the -20's overnight and most of the boys and adults were really only prepared for the - 10's. They started a fire at around 3:00 am and kept it going through the night. Since then we've tried to keep out winter campouts in the single digit range, but we're wimps from MA. I'm sure the scouts in Maine and NH are routinely out in the - digits. I noticed it's like - 35F in much of northern New England this morning.

SA

Given the current state of the economy and job market, "Be Prepared" might be more appropriate.

SA

Ah... now makes a bit more sense. I was afraid the MBA Woodbadgers were at it again.

Never mind.

In fact I'd appreciate it if you'd post a trip report later this summer that I could take to our unit leadership as an idea. Where you go, basic logistics, cost etc.

Thanks

SA

The description of the video is that there are 4 individuals who hike the AT and document their journey. Doesn't sound like scouts in 1936. Still might be an interesting video to get scouts interested in backpacking.

SA

Guy with all due respect, please take this the right way.

Spreadsheets?

Our guys plan outings kind of like the (I think it's Sprint Commercial, what if firefighters ran things, "Ya want clean watah guys? Yeh! Done")

It's when do meet? 7am at the school.

When will we be back? Around 4 on Sunday. Good I don't want to miss the Pats game.

Who's doing breakfast? Bill and Joe. We'll bring eggs & oatmeal OK? Sure.

Who's doin lunch? John. Hey get the crunchy Peanut butter this time.

Who's doin dinner? Evan and Josh. Let's do spaghetti and meatballs. We did that last time lets do something else. What about sloppy joes? Yeh OK.

We won't have access to the cars. Campsite is a couple of miles in so bring your Backpacking stuff. Everybody brings their own water. Joe, you bringing the stove? Yeh. I'll get the cook kit from the hut.

Itinerary Done

Meals Done

Cooking Done

Equipment Done

If I gave the guys a spread sheet they'd role it up and use it as a fire starter.

SA

Where do they think Chicken McNuggets come from?

You can warn them before hand and only have those interested in the demonstration show up.

SA

Done.

SA

Well if the BSA really is to really run like a business perhaps they'll learn to run like other free enterprise activities...declare themselves a bank and ask for taxpayer money.

I think scouting will survive. As noted there are numerous opportunities to do outdoor activities for very little $$.

The councils and professional scouters are another matter. FOS, along with other non-profits will take a hit and the executive staff will be forced to make some tough decisions on jobs, capital projects, camps etc. However, scouting at the local level can be done without council camping, Philmont treks or Jamborees at $1500 to $2000 per scout.

SA

As noted earlier as an MB Counselor it's basically up to you.

In the unit I serve, when I acted as advancement chair, I did not record partial MB accomplishments in Troopmaster. I only recorded completed MBs. Documentation for partials were given to the boys, with the advice of, this is YOUR record, don't lose it. If you want to complete the MB you will need to show this to the MB counselor who signs off on the remaining requirements.

Personally I agree with Neilup. There should be some consequences for lost documentation. It's a teaching moment. I probably would not hold up the MB for all the skill demonstrations I know the boy did, and were witnessed by others..but at a minimum I would have him go through all the "dicuss", "tell" etc. requirements. I would also go through those skills that were easily demonstrated, and didn't necessarily need a pool or body of water for.

But, your the MB counselor. It's up to you.

SA

The only thing I would add with respect to shakedown hikes, is that you really need to do at least one multi-night hike. A minimum hike covering 15 - 20 miles over two nights. One nighters are fine to start with, but a minimum two nighter forces the scouts to learn to properly clean and pack their cooking gear, and address the issue of carrying and conserving enough water.

The one nighters are a good introduction, but it's the second night and third day where they will really get a better idea of what life on the trail will be like.

SA

Well it's hard to imagine a candidate would select people that would give him negative recommendations, at least not all of them.

I have heard of instances where maybe one of four or five letters gives a less than glowing recommendation or even a qualified recommedation that generates some discussion during the EBOR. The BOR makes the final decision. The letters are only one small part and unless a letter includes evidence a scout did not complete a specific requirement I don't see how advancement would be denied based on a letter alone.

Our council requires letters. This is so they don't have to go through the effort to contact the references. The minimum is 1 from a parent, 1 from a teacher, 1 from a religious reference(this can be a parent), 1 from an employer if the scout has a job, 1 from an at large reference(neighbor, relative, coach, fellow scout, anyone else.) So if a scout doesn't submit one from an employer, he has to come up with 1 teacher that will give him a positive recommendation. The rest can be from parents, or relatives or anyone else the scout is confident will give him a positive recomendation.

In the unit I serve, the letters are sent to the unit Eagle Advisor(me) who turns them in with the completed application and workbook. The scout never sees the letters. Only the BOR sees them. I have had candidates have to track down a late one now and then. So far, I have yet to miss an 18th birthday, although it did come down to within a couple of days for one candidate.

I meant to add congratulations to Matt. I'm sure it will work out. My experience is that the vast majority of volunteers are working to help scouts through the process. Sure every now and then you run into a minor road block but they are not very frequent.

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Well sounds like Mr. Gordon fulfilled THAT requirement!

Very impressive. I wish I could get Parents and other adults to buy into more challenging opportunities for the boys. The boys seem ready, it's more often adults that need to be convinced.

SA

"the argument is flawed on many levels if anyone thinks this provides much added safety"

That may be true, but as the response CA got, the perception of "safety" seems to be the reason the BSA is now asking for this information. More likely it's percieved liability defendablity. The fact is, to do a decent background check on an individual a SSN is needed. Like it or not it is the one, single unchanging identifier that is tied to an individual, or so it's supposed to be. Otherwise a background check on "packsaddle" might show up as "psaddle" with three felony convictions for embezzlement of charitable funds, child rape, or "littering and creating a nuisance" and there would be no way of telling if it was packsaddle of someone with the same or similar name.

So it looks like all those that refuse to give SSNs are now in the same membership category avowed gays and athiests.

SA

"That would be a terrific learning experience for a future Captain of Industry, no? "

We'll hiring and paying day laborer might be good for a future Captain of Industry, if they are not documented, i.e. illegal aliens, it might not bode well for a future Attorney General or Homeland Security Chief appointment.

The only problem I could see with paying laborers, would be that if a scout is truely operating as a trustworthy employer he would meet all the requirements of an employer. i.e. training, safety, worker's comp. fair labor standards, etc.( I would have a lot of questions for a scout that paid day laborers in a BOR, ) It's much easier to legally abuse volunteers than those you pay. So, it might be better to hire a contractor and the scout could act as his own construction manager. i.e. issuing contract documents, scopes of work and monitoring progress of the work etc.

Just a suggestion for future Captains of Industry or Homeland Security Chiefs.

SA

Pack has already pointed out that as a private organization, the BSA has a right to establish it's own membership standards and requirements. They may include avowed sexual orientation, religious elements, height/weight requirements, requirement to provide SSN or anything else they wish to add. Those that don't agree are free start their own youth organization.

I suspect the loss of grandfathering has to do with some well publicized adverse publicity several years back regarding one long time scout executive that was found to have inappropriate material on his work computer and possibly misdeeds by other long time volunteers that have never had a background check. All the long time serving pros and volunteers may not be appropriate personnel for their positions in a youth organization and this is an effort to correct historical errors that leave the BSA open to liability and youth open potential harm.

Yes, while one may not be legally required to provide a social security no., the BSA has no legal obligation to maintain membership for anyone who doesn't.

SA

"because private, discriminatory clubs shouldn't get favored access to public property. "

Well with that I agree and I think there are plenty of sound constitutional arguments as to why the BSA should not have favored access to public facilities, but because some privates citizens are offended by BSA policies shouldn't be one of them. It just opens the door for many more frivolous lawsuits, not just effecting the BSA, but many more issues.

SA

I don't know of an "official" threshold, and I don't think there is an estimate of hours required for initial approval, but all the projects I'm aware of that were approved were in the 150 - 400 hour range.

SA

"No one has ever suggested that others have to associate with the BSA."

Well, this is actually the crux of the argument. The plaintiffs claim that to use the facilities they would have to deal with members of the local council. They claim they can't even bring themselves to try and use the facilities because the presence of the BSA hurts, offends, or annoys them so much. Kind of like a Jewish family that would have to deal with a Nazi organization to use a facility or a black family that would have to deal with the KKK to use a facility. I know it's a stretch but that seems to me what they're claiming.

If members of the BSA are so offended by the decision I suggest they find a facility run by a gay/athiest organization and sue them because they can't bring themselves to use the facility because the operators are so offensive to them. There must be a gay beach area, club, pool, or whatever.

I don't really mean that but it illustrates how rediculous the situation is.

I tend to agree with the dissenting opinion here, but so far the only thing that's been decided is that the court agreed that the plaintiffs have been "injured" to the extent they have a right to bring their beef in front of a court and it seems they have expanded the context of what an "injured party" is.

SA

SA

" How come we meet so many descendants of slaves but no descendants of slave owners? "

The same reason everyone in France had relatives in the French Resistance but no one knows anyone who was Vichy French.

SA

(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Generally I'd agree with the notion that any activity that truely challenges the boys would be High Adventure, but...

I find myself agreeing with Hal again. I don't know for sure but I also suspect the question in the context of what the BSA believes is "High Adventure" for the purposes of applying the medical form.

I suspect any BSA base or council camp can decide for itself what activities it deems are "High Adventure". Lacking other guidance from national, perhaps any unit can decide for itself, that decision ultimately being up to the IH of the unit, but might be made by the PLC, Unit Committee or even the SM.

SA

"This is also big time discrimination towards all scouts and scouters who are heavy."

That may be true but the BSA has never had a problem discriminating against those they don't feel qualify as members or are the "best kind of citizen". It is a private organization free to set it's own membership and participation requirements and can discriminate against anyone they want for just about any reason they feel like.

Having said that I tend to agree with Hal. I think having certain physical standards for those activities where those with higher risks put not just themselves at risk but also put an entire crew and outing at risk is completely appropriate. However for most of the standard car camping, weekend outing, summer camp activities I would hope that these standards would not apply for just the reason Hal mentioned. I have also seen scouts take fitness far more seriously when confronted with the prospect of not being able to attend a high adventure activity.

SA

I'll admit to a bit a sarcasm in my previous post. But I believe those on the far left will be more disappointed in Obama than those right of center. We'll have to see how it plays out.

SA

It seems a bit ironic that some of the most pointed criticism of Bush is now coming from his own party and even his own staff. Bush was the RNC's chosen candidate. They didn't want McCain in 2000 and their guy got elected.

Now, I don't think there is any group that would like to see the clock tick faster on the Bush administration than the RNC. On January 21, all the ills and woes of the country will become Obama's and the Democrat's and the neo-conservatives in the Republican party can go back to complaining on talk radio and playing the victim of a liberal socialist government. I can't imagine what could make them happier.

While I may not be totally enthralled with the Obama administration, I'm willing to give it a chance. I just hope in 4 years we don't forget where the current version of the Republican party left us. Hopefully, the party of Reagan, McCain 2000, Powell, and other pragmatic conservatives finds itself or we'll end up with a choice between Sara Palin and the current incumbent. Democrats would be thrilled with such a choice.

SA