scoutingagain

We have counted consecutive nights of camping outside of summer camp, on backpacking trips where the campsite changes every night. So a 7 day, 6 night backpacking trip would cound as 6 nights of camping. Plus possibly another night or two camping on the way to and from the backpacking outing.

We have counted 3 nights for a long weekend camping trip, we do not consider a "long term" camp. i.e. Friday, Sat, & Sunday night.

SA

Yes, another sad story worthy of a few prayers for those affected.

The fact is we're an outdoor based organization. There are some inherent risks with that. With forethought and prudence many can be managed.

Drop a funnel cloud in an area where there are a 100+ people spread over a 1000 acres or more where there are little or no structures designed to take such weather, be it a trailer park, scout camp, or subdivision built on slabs with no basements, and your likely to have problems, serious problems. The reports I read, indicated the storm virtually formed very close to the camp, giving little or no warning. It's not like they were being tracked and warnings posted in their path.

I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from this event, but if the same thing were to happen at our council camp, on a high volume week where there might be 1,000 scouts in attendance, the results would likely be much worse and short of building hurricane or tornado shelters to house the whole camp in such infrequent events, I'm not sure you can do much more than that what John in KC or Joe McD described.

I know our camp watches the weather closely with some many people in tents. There is a plan for extreme weather events, but it is similar to the response the camp involved did, and that's to gather as many as possible in the dining hall, latrines and other structures in camp. None of those structures would survive a tornado or hurricane, but would likley protect occupants from falling tree limbs and lightning. Fortunately tornados are pretty rare in our part of the country, but no unheard of either.

Tough news to see.

SA

This is my worst nightmare. A leader given responsibility for the safety and well being of other people's children and losing one. I too, say a prayer for the boy, his family and his unit.

None of us were there so we don't know the circustances. What little information is provided in the article leaves many questions. The article indicates this was a unit had a reputation for doing canoe trips and it sounds as if they were experienced. They probably filed a tour permit and met all the G2SS requirements. Life jackets were used and the boy sounds as if he was a strong swimmer. However, it sounds as if (and I'm speculating here) while they may have been experienced and maybe even had run this river before, under lower flow conditions and considered it a safe river for young scouts. Conditions this spring turned out to be more dangerous than they had encountered in the past and I suspect they were not aware of how bad the conditions were until they got on the river. The headline provides a hint, "River warnings FOLLOW Boy Scout's Death". But, again the above is all speculation by me.

This is a stark reminder to all of us to not just follow the G2SS but to think about what we do. Anticipate, plan, then do and it some cases maybe do something other than our intial plan. Nothing is routine.

SA

"I think I got it now, I am going for Troop Guide, I understand what I am supposed to do in this position and how to do it. "

Wise decision.

SA

"One in Four Believe the Nation is So Divided That a Common National Identity is Not Possible "

I'm quite certain if the question giving this result was asked on the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001 there would have been a much different response. I drove cross country the days following and can assure all there was very much a national identity on display. No Blue State/Red State nonsense. Just the United States.

SA

Sven,

I've followed this thread for a while and havn't jumped in mainly because I think others are giving you pretty good feedback. At this point I will be blunt though.

Re-read John-in-KC's last Post. If you truely value your membership in the BSA I'd suggest you follow Neilup's advice.

If you think, "if I can get a majority of Chartered Reps to reject the slate of nominees made by the nomination committee, then they would have to re-evaluate who they want to nominate. Perhaps a deal could be made where if I'm added to the list the Chartered reps will vote in the rest of the nominees." I suggest you look into what occurred with the Chicago Area Council in recent years.

The BSA is a private organization. While it may have bylaws, etc. the bylaws are their own and can be changed at any time for just about any reason. Membership or position is not a right or guaranteed to anyone. If someone at a high enough level comes to believe you are more touble to deal with than your worth, a council, if it so chooses may revoke the membership of an individual just because they feel like it. They don't have to give a reason, provide due process or anything else. Others have tried what you describe above and have found themselves recieving a letter from the council simply telling them they are no longer a member of the BSA. It can be done in a few minutes at the cost of a 1st class stamp and there is absolutely no recourse. If the powers that be don't want you in the club, your out. Period, finito, done.

You seem like a reasonable young man but maybe a bit naive when it comes to organizational politics. If you value your service to the youth in the BSA, think about everything that's been said in this thread.

SA

Yes, Congratulations!

I'll leave the discussion of gas prices alone for now except as I've stated before I'm in the same camp as Gern.

As far as the economy goes, while I accept certain areas are harder hit than others, I continue to be suprised by the resiliency of the economy. It actually grew last quarter, although at an anemic less than 1% rate. Employment overall nationally is holding up suprisingly well. My commute still sucks because not enough companies have laid people off yet and they still clog the highways getting in and out of the city and it seems worse than it was last year. They tell me ridership is up on public transportation but I don't see that on the road. During the last really bad recession the commute was much easier.

The easy money is gone. You can't make quick capital appreciation in real estate or the stock market like the 80's and 90's. The oil speculation thing seems like it has topped out for the short term. Seems like to make money you actually have to work. I feel really bad for the house flippers and day traders.

On the other hand I don't believe we've seen the full effect of oil prices filter through the economy yet. Dow Chemical just announced across the board 20% price increases to offset increased energy costs.(The CEO had interesting things to say about the role of our government and energy prices. Basically our government has failed us with a lack of any kind of enery policy or strategy and now we're paying the piper. Interesting statement for a CEO of a company operating in a free market.) What they make is in everything. Food, Plastics, Hard Goods. We'll all be paying more for just about everything, and it won't be just because the government is printing more money.

On the plus side, the increases in oil and traditional enery sources presents hugh opportunities for clever folks to come up with alternatives. At $4.00/gallon(Europe is paying $8.00/gal so don't feel bad.) the clever folks really have an incentive to put their thinking caps on to come up with alternatives. Those with good ideas and implementation will get rich. Virtually every town around here, especially those on the coast line are looking at putting up windmills. They're popping up all over the place.

While one may need a decent sized vehicle to cart scouts and equipment around once a month, your day to day commute and around town errands could be served with a plug in hybride that in many circumstance won't even need gas. Plug-ins will be available probably next year. You can already buy kits to convert a Prius or other hy-brid to a plug in. Sorry they don't go Vroom Vroom like a big 6 liter V8. Maybe they could add a chip that sent a noise through the radio speakers for those that need that kind of thing.

Just as we did in the late '70s and early '80s the market will develop energy infrastructure to reduce dependance on oil and we'll start all over.

Me, I chuckle as I cruise along in my $8000 used Hyundai, past the big crew cabs going 55 mph trying to squeeze out a few more mpgs. Sorry OGE, couldn't afford an xB. Drove to Philly and back over the weekend (700miles) using less than 18 gallons.

The other really good thing is this year on the harbor I expect to see far fewer of the big sport fishing boats nocking around my little sailboat. There are For Sale signs on all kinds of big power boats up and down the coast. Even if they do get in the water I'm confident most owners won't be able to take 'em off the dock, leaving me and my fellow rag boaters in peace on the high seas.

My 2 cents or0.005 gals of gas.

SA

First, I don't know if some are confusing the Eagle Project Workbook with the Application.

As I recall the Workbook is a savable form.

I just tried using Acrobat Version 8 and it allowed me to save data on the Application form.

SA

Link to Congressional Research Report on Bisphenol A.

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RS22869_20080505.pdf.

My conclusion after reading this report is that for the vast majority of scouting uses of polycarbonate type bottles there is little risk to adults and adolescents drinking cold water or other cold beverages from these bottles. So I'm not going to throw out my inventory of bottles.

If I had infants or young children in my household I would not use polycarbonate bottles to feed them or store juices etc. intended for their consumption.

That's my take. Read and make your own conclusions.

SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Acutally I was thinking going to something like a combination of American Idol and Survivor with all the candidates of each major party starting out in their own tribes, third part candidates could be a separte tribe. Each week one tribe member is voted out by the viewing public until you get three major candidates left.

Seems like some folks know more about the participants on American Idol than they do about the Presidential candidates.

SA

"Kind of wish National would look into something that would be recognizable nationaly, and would stop some of the nonsense out there."

Or NYLT developers and staffers could be satisfied that their efforts have gone serve the development of youth leadership and leave the recognition at that.

SA

My experience with the Appalachian Mountain Club here in New England, is that they will extend member pricing for the use of their campsites, campgrounds and facilities to Scout groups.

SA

Well you can probably blame Florida for the first four years, I don't know about the last four years.

I will admit the Democrats have made for good entertainment.

I have to admit though I don't get the whole primary thing. Sure MI and FL probably flubbed by scheduling their primaries too early. But if everyone says the races are over, whats the point in having some states run primaries in late May or early June?

It will be interesting to see if Hillary is interested in the VP slot. I think she might be interested, but while there might have been a role as an advisor of some sort if she was President, I don't see much cache for Bill as an advisor to the VP.

SA

Ya Beavah. It goes both ways.

In a perfect world, in addition to your upfront expectations I'd say each POR gets a review after say 2 months. Feed back given on performance and areas to improve, with another review after 4 months in office with ongoing coaching. At that point the candidate is either performing or not, and should be told whether or not he will likely get credit for the position or not and what he needs to do to start getting credit and restart the calender. If the job really matters and it's not getting done then maybe it's time to give it to someone else.

Oh I fully admit I'm far from perfect in doing this myself.

Letting it go 6 months and then telling a scout he didn't do the job doesn't seem fair to the scout though.

Although I understand the argument that just because an adult leader didn't do his/her job shouldn't mean a scout automatically should get credit for their efforts or lack thereof.

But it seems like in the few disputes I've been aware of, National or the Council is heavily biased towards supporting the scout when a leader has not done their job.

SA

So more importantly how many rows of knots can I fit above the pocket?

SA

I tend to agree with the above. It's not about numbers or ratios. It's what the adults do in the troop that matters. A single, all powerful control freak SM, with just one or two ASMs might be too many adults for a unit of 50 boys. Yet a good boy led unit with 6 - 12 adults and a similar number of scouts might be fine.

SA

I thought Beavah's response was good. Jambo's maybe a once in a lifetime experience, but they are expensive, unless your really able get organized and do some good fundraising. The council HA activities are a good way to go.

The one caveat I mentioned to our older scouts as they thought about HA activities was that, they will always be able to get a bunch of buddies together and do their own HA activity. However, once they turn 18, their accessibility to the National HA bases and even the council HA activities, will be limited, at least as youth participants. You may be able to go to Philmont as an adult, but it will never be the same as seen through a eyes of a 14-17 year old youth experience.

One nice thing about Jambo. We did a HA trip at a council camp during the last Jamboree. We practically had the facilities and staff to ourselves.

SA

I think the question is,

Is it fair to withold advancement from a scout, if you believe he has not met one of the subjective requirements of rank advancement,( i.e. scout spirit, actively served, etc.)yet, based on the requirements set by National as quoted by John-in-KC, you are relatively certain if the scout were to appeal your decision, your decision would be overturned on appeal.

It's not that we're all worried about appeals, it's more about being trustworthy. While I may not like the way a scout has performed in his POR, if I have not removed him from office within the time required to fulfill the position, I am quite certain if he were to appeal my decision to withold advancement, my decision would be overturned. In this circumstance, I could not look the scout in the eye and tell him he has not fullfilled the requirements. I could ask him how he felt and if he felt he had not fulfilled the requirements, and would like more time to properly complete the POR, that's a different issue.

SA

"So if religion works for some folks in answering the questions they're asking why does the Scientific crowd have such a backlash against them unless it is to win them over to their worldview/religion? And then deny that they are adherents to a religion?"

I don't believe it's the scientists going into Churches asking to be allowed to present their point of view as an alternative valid faith or religion.

SA

I'm afraid I tend to agree with OGE. If the candidate can truthfully put on his application he served a scribe from such and such a date to another and it adds up to six months, in the eye's of BSA national, he's fulfilled the requirement and any denial of advancement based on your subjective opinion will be overturned. If he was doing such a bad job, he should have been removed.

I agree the rumor is rumor. That's it.

About the only thing I can see you doing is to get the scout himself to admit he has not done a good job as Scribe and needs to serve a few more months doing all the things he was coached on before he is ready to submit himself as a candidate for Eagle scout.

SA

OK. Ed, teachers have the same right to pray as an individual as students do. However, while a student may be able to lead other students in a voluntary prayer, teachers and administrators may not do so. As Merlyn stated, in thier role as a teacher, they are acting as an agent of the government and must obey restrictions placed on the government by the constitution as interpreted by the courts, who are appointed by our elected representatives.

SA

Our Eagle candidates meet with the DAC on Roundtable nights. The process is similar to what Gunny describes. The scout has to show sign offs from the organization benefiting from the project, his SM and Committee or whatever is in the book.

He has to have a tentative schedule, (not exact dates) and a plan for labor and materials. i.e. groups that will help, but not names of specific individuals. He has to be able to show what materials will be needed and how he plans on getting them. Again a plan, either fund raising or donations of materials or funding from the benefiting organization, a verbal commitment from sources noted by the scout in the book are fine. He needs to show he can carryout the project if it's approved. If it is something to be contructed they usually have a schematic drawing of what they plan to build. Not an engineered drawing, but something that gives the DAC a visual representation of the finished project. The books are typed up using the online version of the workbook, but I would say at this stage of the project not much more than 4- 6 pages of material is presented, if that.

I know the District wants to have enought info to be confident the project is sufficiently challenging for the scout to show leadership and that if approved there is a high probability for completerion. What they don't like, is to have Eagle candidates to plan and promise to a third party organization a service project, not to have it completed. It makes it that much tougher on the next candidate to approach an organization for a project.

The DAC is pretty good about being accessible at Rountables but he's hard to get a hold of otherwise. If a scout didn't get his project approved say at the June Roundtable it's concievable he'd end up having to wait until September. So far, that hasn't happened but for a scout with a summer birthday who's about to turn 18, it could be a problem.

SA

Ed, and you don't see the problem with that question either?

SA

"Why not draft a Constitutional Amendment allowing prayer in public schools?"

Why? There is no Constitutional issue that prevents students from privately praying in public schools now. They are allowed to pray in any faith they want. To be sure there are restrictions on where and when they may be allowed to pray so as not to disrupt the educational mission of the school, but any student can say a prayer privately before school, between classes, at lunch, after school, etc.

The government is not allowed to lead a prayer. Nothing in the Constitution prevents anyone from praying...or not praying, even at a public school.

I've prayed on school grounds and no one has prevented me. Last fall I prayed the place- kicker for the HS football team would make a key 30 yarder. I'm sure I was joined by hundreds of others. The thought police did not stop the game and sweep the stands.

SA

(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)