resqman

"So here's my question -- for those of you that have gone that route, shunning patrol boxes and troop trailers and the like, what sorts of things have you purchased as a troop, and what sorts of things have you decided are personal purchases? Examples: stoves, cookware, tents, tarps... "

To some degree,what is your troop providing now?

If your troop has colman stoves, then backpacking stoves makes sense.

If your troop has cookware now, then backapacking cookware makes sense.

If your troop has tents now, then backpacking tents makes sense.

If your troop has stationary tarps now, backpacking tarps makes sense.

Keep in mind that backpacking gear also works when not backpacking. The issue with backpacking gear is that sometimes parts of the whole are split up amoung multiple hikers to even out the weight. The tent goes with Scout A but the poles are with Scout B. Sometimes not all of the gear is returned.

The choice of cookware/stove can also be a concern. The Jetboil system only works with their cookware. Ok, you can use a regular fry pan but not nearly as efficiently. The Whisperlite and MSR work with any pot but their fuel system messing with liquid fuels. The Jetboil system is really a messkit and cookkit in one system so sharing food becomes an issue. One burner but individual pots solves that problem but potentially at a higher cost.

Also consider the issue of mulitple products and the learning curve. The troop can decide on a particular vendor/model/make of product. Then if individual purchases are made, everyone knows how to operate and can exchange parts if necessary. Lots of different individual vendors/models/makes ensures if there is a weak spot, at least there is vareity to overcome the failure point.

Overall, the uniform has gone to tan and green. Half the world thought the uniform was too flashy and showy and should be toned down. The other half want more color and patches. The term often used was third world dictator general look.

So yes, not only the rank badges but also POR, Trained, troop numbers, epulets, etc. have gone to tan and green. More subdued look overall.

I have my Tenderfoot badge from pre-1972 and it is a piece of dark green cloth with a yellow fleurdelis. No border sewn around the patch. The uniform was the same dark green color at the time. You actually rolled the edge of the patch under and then sewed it to the uniform. My other rank badges are garish colors. I remember as a boy being disappointed that they changed the uniform to the Oscar De La Renta tan and green with bright patches. I wanted the dark green uniform with red piping. What goes around comes around.

Why only 90 minutes for 40 cars? How many heats can you run in a minute?

We planned an entire Saturday. We had dens staggered to arrive about every 30-45 minutes. That way they arrived early enough to cheer the other members and get hyped to run their cars. Most stayed for the duration of the race once they arrived. Usually ran from 8am to about 2-3pm. The pack sold hot dogs, donuts, and drinks during the day as a fundraiser.

I think you will be really rushing to race 40 cars in 90 minutes.

I have seen cases where the scout earned Life by 14. Holds a POR and then only attends couple times a year. Basically to get a MB signed off. Couple years go by and he is 17. Parents pressure him to finish before he ages out. Puts together a project and attends a few troop meetings asking for labor. A busy Saturday and the project is completed. He does the paperwork and is ready for EBOR.

He got his POR years ago and has maintained his membership. He meets the rule of Active because he was registered but did not Participate. Case of the Fumes, perfume and gasoline. Girls and cars seem a lot more exciting than sleeping on the ground and hiking in the rain.

Our troop policy is that parents cannot sign off any requirements for their sons. We are a larger troop, 45-55 scouts with at least 10 ASMs. Finding adult who can sign off is relatively easy. We have at least 2 couselors for each required MB so jr. never has to rely on parents to sign.

I can see in a small troop of 14 boys with an SM and 1 or 2 ASMs, it could be more difficult to find an adult to sign off requirements.

Of course the SM's son will always be the exception. There is the SM conference. Gotta have Dads signature. Every blue card has the unit leaders signature. Dad again. Every rank card, Dad's signature. If SM son has all the individual requirements signed off by Dad, there is a problem. If Dad is only signing as the unit leader, then I see no issue.

This has got to be the overriding reason that national has not forbidden the parent signature.

It seems that many more scouts are earning the rank of Eagle than I remember in my day. I was thinking it over wonder what the rest of you think about this idea.

Used to be that everyone played recreational sports. You paid you minor fee, and played your 10 games and 10 practices. Everyone knew it was not pro-ball. Lots of kids were also scouts. Just another event in your life.

Now every kid picks an area and focuses all their energy on that one membership. Nobody "just" plays rec ball, they only play competitive ball. The rec leagues are almost empty by middle school because everyone has moved up the ladder to tryout teams and travel teams. Same with scouts.

Scouts used to be one of many activities boys participated in and lots more causual users were in the program. Not all were driven to earn Eagle, just go camping and have some fun with your buddies. I am seeing more where Scouts is the one event where it is not just about having fun and hanging out with your buddies, but it is a cattle drive to get all the scouts to market as Eagles. Those who are in scouting, are IN Scouting. Not casually but almost professionally in scouting. As a result, the goal of this competive sport we call scouting has become to earn the trophy of Eagle.

Or is it just because I am adult leader and I tend to hear about success's more often? What say you?

Was visiting a Pack crossover a few miles down the road last week and saw him. Only way I knew he was ours is because the SM said he was ours. Have seen him at various training and council events but never seem him at a troop function in 4 years.

Was visiting a Pack crossover a few miles down the road last week and saw him. Only way I knew he was ours is because the SM said he was ours. Have seen him at various training and council events but never seem him at a troop function in 4 years.

Son just completed his EBOR tonight. Add one more to the list of Eagle Scouts. 3rd generation scout, 2nd generation Eagle.

Brother completed Life 2 weeks ago. 4 MBs, project and POR and will have another Eagle in the family.

We choose a pack because my son wanted to hang out with a buddy. It was a great pack. Drawback was it was a bit of a drive to attend. When it came time to cross over, we did not even consider the troop at the same CO. I said if we are going to weekly meetings, I am not willing to drive that far. Did not matter how good the troop might be, I was not spending the next 7 years driving across town.

My son looked at 3 troops much closer to our home. A family friend was the SM of one troop. One troop actually had a high representation from our old pack. 3rd troop had their own building. All three are good troops with strong programs and would have been a good choice.

I explained to my Den that I don't care what Troop they go to as long as they stay in scouting. I scheduled troop visits. None of the boys in my den attended any of the troop visits. 9 out of the 12 Webelos joined the troop my son selected. 2 went to troops closer to their homes. 1 dropped out of scouting. None joined the troop at the same CO as the Pack.

I attended a crossover last evening. CO has both a Pack and Troop. One boy decided to join the troop I serve while the rest stayed at the same CO. 3 or the 8 boys had older brothers in the troop. The DL and ADL moved on to the troop.

Many parents don't know that they can change units. Many are under the impression that they must cross over to the troop with the same CO. Unless the DLs are letting the Webelos and parents know there are choices, most parents don't know to look elsewhere.

I think Allen's list is a good goal for troop leadership. Certainly obtainable. I would say that easily half our ASMs meet all the list. The rest meet 75% of the list. I am not sure why an SM would not want his ASMs to meet this list.

Follow the Scout Oath and Law at all times

- That should be a given for all scouts and scouters

Complete the following training:

Youth Protection, Hazardous Weather, Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat

Boy Scout Leader Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific Training, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills

- That is the minimum to earn the SM/ASM trained patch with about 2 hours of additional online training. Should be complete in 1st year.

Serve on the Troop Committee for one year, while supporting Troop meetings and campouts

- Can be useful to help change the mindset from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts or from civilian to scout. Also ensures the adult learns how the troop operates.

- Our troop bylaws have the same requirement but the SM tends to hustle outdoorsman into the ASM program and encourges less outdoor inclined towards the many necessary committee positions. Most of our ASMs do not complete their 1 yr committee time.

Become proficient in the Tenderfoot thru First Class skills

- IOLS starts the trail, proficiency comes with practice. If the boys see the adults practicing, it tends to draw them in to practice as well. All second yr ASM should be proficient.

Take a real interest in each Scout, get to know them personally

- Attending the events and it is easy to get to know the lads

- We assign 2 ASMs to advise and oversee each patrol. They sit in on patrol meetings. Easy to learn the boys interest.

Treat all Scouts the same, including your own son

- Our rule is you can discipline any scout but your own. Get another adult to intervene

Maintain CPR/AED Certification

- The mostly likely candidates to need CPR are the adults. The boys probably need to know how to perform CPR more so than the adults.

- Have the troop sponsor a CPR class once a year. Many of our adults get certified through work or during summer camp

Attend at least of the Troop meetings, campouts, PLC meetings and service projects

- Our SM attends PLC meetings. ASMs get there information from the weekly SPL troop announcements otherwise not an issue.

- Just at some of the scouts take a break during sports season, adults occasionally take a break due to work committments.

Be active in your religious institution

- A scout is reverent. Nuff said

Attend Merit Badge Counselor Training.

- ASMs are probably going to be counseling most of the outdoor badges. Get trained for your position

Attend supplemental training courses, when possible (Wilderness First Aid, Wood Badge, etc)

- Our troop pays 100% of the cost of all adult training. We have several who have taught district and council classes including Wood Badge. Troop culture promotes training so adults tend to make the time.

- If your troop is participating in High Adventure activities, at least one leader has to be WFA trained. In our troop, each year at least two adults go on a National High Adventure trip so at least one of those is going to take WFA. Over time, most of the ASMs will be WFA trained. Last year we had 3 adults complete WFA. 1 of those is planning on taking it again this year for refresher.

Our troop has not formalized the requirements to the extent Allen has but has developed a culture that promotes training and participation. Just as boys who attend more activties tend to advance more quickly, adults who attend more activities tend to make the time to become better trained and prepared to fullfill their roles as troop leaders.

We usually by the 36 qt powdered drink mix from Sams, BJs, Costco.

We fill the 5 gallon drink cooler about 1/2 - 3/4 of water and then add about half can of drink mix. Stir and add more water. The mix is a little weak but less sugar in the scouts is not all bad.

The scouts have learned to just pour a scoop of the mix into their canteens and add water. They tend to make the mix extra strong.

When my son bridged, he got a handmade arrow with painted bands, wooden plaque and awe inspiring ceremony - pagent where the Tiger cubs were handed arrows by "the Chief" to be awarded to the AOL recipents. Flash paper was tied to the arrows and burned to prove they were worthy. Webelos who did not earn the AOL did not get an arrow.

The arrow is buried in the back of his closet and he could realy care less. It may have more meaning to him when he his kids join scouts in 20 years but right now, not much.

Earned my AOL in '71. Don't remember any ceremony or bridging. Got a patch to sew below my pocket. I remember asking what it was for and got the answer "Because you were a cub scout."

We didn't wear brag vests but instead wore the red wool jac with all our patches sewn on the back. Collecting a patch for every scout event was a big thing when I was a boy. Scouts in my troop have no interest in collecting pathches. Times and troops have different cultures. I still enjoy collecting patches to events I attend. Wish I had more of my childhood scout stuff to fondle and remember.

Start with a basic first aid course, usually about 6-8 hours.

If you are the CM, everyone will be looking to you (your position) whenever anything needs to happen. You might consider scheduling a Saturday class and encouraging all the Den Leaders to attend the class together. That way you are free to manage the scene and Pack while other uniformed leaders are performing actual first aid. The Pack could help pay for all or some of the class costs. Most parents would see that as a useful way to spend pack Money.

The Pack I was a member of paid for all leader training and encouraged leaders to complete all position training. We scheduled a Saturday class and all the Den Leaders took basic 1st Aid and CPR. We also had the Webelose take BAT, Basic Aid Training which is geared to kids that age. I don't know if ARC still offers that class by that name.

4 years ago, I wore civilian clothes. My idea was I wanted the Troop leadership to explain everything as if I was a parent, not a scouter. I did not want them to skip information presuming I already knew something about scouting. I had Den Leader burnout and was considering taking some time off before volunteering with the troop. My thought was if I wore a uniform, they would presume I was a high probability candidate and would sell me harder.

The troop leader making the presentation to adults that first night did not know me or my history. I got what I wanted from that presentation. Other troop leaders recognized me and introduced me around speaking my scouting resume for me. I was only incognito for a short while.

I also had the idea that if my son was in uniform and I was not, the troop would spend more time courting him and I could fade into the background with the other parents. I wanted my son to pick the troop, not me.

During troop visits for the past month or so, as a troop leader I look for the new parent who looks lost, confused, or worried. I am targeting the non-uniformed parents. They are the ones more likely to not understand Boy Lead vs. Pack Adult Lead.

"I think a lot of people are forgetting what first aid is. It's FIRST AID. It's not an EMT, it's not a trained medical professional. It's not comprehensive, it's basic. It's a stopgap until a doctor or EMT can get the situation under control. And no, it's not perfect. But are you going to require an EMT to go on every scout outing?

If a person has a severe medical problem the responsibility is with the individual to explain to the leader what the risks, signs, and symptoms are. Or are you going to just tell a leader you have suchandsuch, and let the leader read up on it and make his own decisions?"

You are correct. The problem I see is there is no First Aid requirement for SM/ASM. 1-2 hour overview during IOLS is not adequate training in my opinion. Scouts are often an hour from the

I took WFA through WFA.NET. The instructor kept the class on topic and on schedule. To the extent that the students commented amoung ourselves that we were reluctant to ask questions. The class cost was more than the ARC class offered by council but I needed the class within a certain time frame to be able to attend a high adventure trip.

As a previous EMT, much of the material was review for me. The human body hasn't changed much in the last 20 years. :^)

Several of the big take away concepts include:

- Hurry cases may die and there is nothing you can do.

- Requesting Medical assitance and/or Transport of the patient will take longer than you expect so plan to spend the night from the begining. This will shape many of your decisions.

- Use and deplete the patients supplies and gear first.

- "Planetary Stablization" Use the ground as a backboard.

- Most non-wilderness First Aid courses limit actual treatment and encourage stablization while waiting on EMS response. Wilderness FA teaches specific treatments which counter Non-WFA training. Shift of mindset for the rescuer.

- Any WFA should not be your inital First Aid class. There is too much information to fully absorb in a short time. Take a basic first aid course at least a month before taking WFA.

Years ago I went rappelling with a Paramedic. I was part way through my EMT training at the time. It was not a scout outing and the only Guide to Safe Outing was what we felt like doing. It was a 1.5 hr drive to the mountains. Last 1/2 hour was into the back country. This was before cellphones. He carried a pocket air mask, examination gloves, and couple of 4x4 guaze pads. That was his entire first aid kit.

If it was a medical emergency, either the paitent would have his prescription meds or not. We could not carry a portable pharmacy of every potential med. If the patient had meds, we could assist the patient. If they did not have meds, then they would suffer until the patient could be transported to the nearest medical facility.

If it was a traumatic injury, the only thing we could effectively do in the field anyway would be to stop the bleeding. Broken bones are splinted to limit further damage while moving the patient. Most patients won't die from a broken bone, unless an artery is cut. Gloves to protect the Rescuer and gauze to help clotting and keep the wound clean. If we had an ambulance the only thing we would do differently is start an IV to keep volume up and keep a vein open to be able to push drugs. Gotta have Dr. OK to start an IV and we weren't gonna carry IV fluids and setup since we couldn't contact a Dr.

The face mask was to protect the rescuer from the patients vomit and trasmitted diseases. Clear the airway and blow. After a few minutes the rescurer is going to feel dizzy and will not be able to continue mouth to mouth. If the patient isn't able to resume breathing on their own after 15 minutes, they are probably gonna die unless they are hypothermic. No other field treatment is likely save them.

Everything else is so minor as not to worry or too major to fix in the field. In EMS lingo, the patient is commonly known as DRT (dead right there).

WFA explains how the body works and how it compensate when injured. First Aid helps the body to compensate when injured to slow or prevent the body from spiraling into death.

The biggest thing people should take away from any first aid training is think about how the body is going to react to the injury. A broken bone is painful but basically otherwise the body can tolerate a broken bone for days. A bone sticking out of the skin is gruesome to many but it is not a life threatening emergency. Keep the victim calm and limit further damage to the break site.

Diabetic shock means the brain is not getting enough sugar and is going to shutdown all other activities in an effort to supply sugar to the brain. No blood gushing from the vicitim but much more life threatening than a broken bone. Get the sugar level up in the body and everything will be fine.

The best medical providers understand how the body is reacting to the medical or traumtic injury. Then the "first aid" is to help the body heal itself. People also need to learn that sometimes there is no field treatment and the only real solution is to get the patient to a medical facility. Preventing injury is much more effective then field treatment. Pushing water and regulating body temp all along the trip is much more effective than trying to cool or "save" a person from heat exhaustion.

Taking first aid training helps the rescurer to remain calm when everyone else around is spinning out of control. It helps the rescuer plan a course of action. Often that course in the field is stop and to rest for a bit. Apply direct pressure to stop bleeding. Otherwise transport the patient to definitive care.

To answer my question, I think a basic 8 hr first aid course should be a requirement added to SM/ASM training.

"No...my $15 (if that is what it is...I'm certain it's more than than here) earns me professional training of the adult leaders. Not some book, or web video. And if that isn't enough... make it $150!

A small price to pay for eliminating fatalities due to stupidity. And that is what this was... 10 levels of stupidity."

BSA is a volunteer program. The adults who lead troops are somebodys Dad who agreed to help. They agreed to spend $100 for uniform and spend about 2 days in a classroom learning the basics of how the program is designed and about 2 days on an overnight campout to be exposed to the basics of the program. They are not a paid staff of EMTs and Wilderness Survival Experts. There is no first aid or survival training at all.

"10 levels of stupidity" are parents not involved in the program presuming that for $15 for national dues and usually about $75 of troop dues they are buying a paid professional outdoorsman with the skills of a military special forces medic and survial expert.

Troops range from a dad and his fishing buddy taking a dozen kids on a weekend campout to troops with gear and training to rival NOLS or similar programs. Hopefully the lesser trained and skilled are looking for additionl training outside of scouting, or are taking less adventurous trips.

Scouting is based on the premise of taking lads away from momma's side and into the outdoors. Webelos just crossing over will be challenged by an overnight camping trip 50 feet from the parking lot. 3rd year scouts may think a 10 day backpacking trip at Philmont as barely challenging enough.

Parents trust adult leadership to provide adequate training and resources to their sons to not be seriously injured or killed during a scout outing. Scouts in a troop have a wide variance of skill depth and expierence. When and who decides when a scout is not adequately prepared for an outing?

Do parents who have never been camping or on a troop outing familar enough to judge if an event is beyond the capabilities of their son?

Every couple of years, a scout is seriously injured, lost or dies while on a scout outing. The media swoops in and says the adults lacked adequate training to provide adequate supervision or care.

Currently the only first aid training required for adult leaders is CPR. In reality the most likely canidate to need CPR are the adult leaders and the lads are the ones who really need the CPR training! Should a basic first aid component be added to SM/ASM training? Is Wilderness First Aid training too much training to require for uniformed adults leading weekend camping trips?

Not arguing the optium size of 48 but I a little curious how you get 9 patrols of 9 boys with only 48 scouts?

9 patrols of 9 scouts is 81 plus one patrol of 8 is 90 scouts. Recommend you check your math again.

With 60 scouts, 8 scouts per patrol, that is at least 6 or 7 patrols. That means at least 6 or 7 Patrol leader positions elected by the patrol members. Plus the roles of SPL, Quartermaster, Scribe, Historian, Chaplains Aid, LNT, Den Chief, Librarian, and unlimited number of troop instructors. That is a minimum of 16 Positions of Responsibility or about of the troop could hold a POR. The ASMs son has a 1 in 4 chance of having a POR. If he is actively seeking those roles, it is likely he is able to convince the SPL he is a good candidate. Many scouts do not want a POR until they reach 1st Class since there is not a requirement for the lower ranks. If you subtract out of the troop membership because they dont want or need a position, then there is a 1 in 3 chance to hold a POR.

how would one boy get assigned to two positions at the same time?

Troops commonly hold elections every 6 months or year depending on the culture. Rank requirements state a scout most hold a position for a minimum of 6 months except for Star where you only need 4 months. Usually all positions, even appointed, run the length between elections. So typically, a scout would finish holding a position when elected to a new position. Holding two positions at the same time would not allow the scout to advance faster since the position must be held during the rank to qualify. You cannot stock up on PORs and apply them when you need them for the next rank. A scout could hold multiple positions and not be in conflict. He could be a Den Chief and also a Troop Instructor.

"It may be that the SM hasn't seen the issue arise..." I suspect that is certainly the case, since the SM is incredibly stand-offish from the actions of the troop.

Sounds like it may be a boy-lead troop if the SM is stand-offish. That is often considered a good thing. The SM may be relying on the Advancement Chair to catch double dipping on PORs and alert him. The SM cannot be aware of every action of every scout in the troop. There is nothing technically wrong with holding two POR as long as the scout is able to fulfill both roles.

"Would it be bad for a Scout to discover that he needed to suck up to the Curly Haired Boss --- I mean the SPL in order to win his support for something he wants? " Yes...there is...if the "boss" has an agenda for his "golden child"....to extend the metaphor.

You may be mixing the metaphor. A Scout would need to suck up to the SPL (boss) to get a POR. You implied the ASM is interfering with distribution of PORs so a scout would need to convince the ASM to distribute PORs.

One thing not answered in the original post, WHO is doing the assigning?

If adults are assigning ANY roles then you have a much bigger problem. The original post hints that the ASM may be infearing with POR selection.

If the SPL and PLs are selecting the same scout repeatedly, that is a different issue.

Writing the name using mustard from a squirt bottle is another method. It turns a darker color but is visible even after the foil pack is turned over and the mustard rests in the coals. Have not has as good luck with markers.

Foil pack menu

Thick ham slice or cubed ham

Pineapple, rings or chunks

Splash of pineapple juice [For steam] Alternate OJ or water

Sliced or cubed sweet potatoes

Sprinkle of cimmamon or nutmeg

Pinch of salt to balance all the sweetness