qwazse

qwazse - Despite your use of a bold font, those are in fact hypothetical responses to the situation.

I wish, in fact, they were.

I'll grant that those are very real possibilities for some situations, but certainly not the only way that it could be handled at the unit level.

I would have said the same thing, before the second time...

There's also no saying whether the SE's response would be any different, or any better.

Not different, just independent from all of the unit's biases.

To avoid speculating on how the SE would/could/should respond, is there anyone with any first hand knowledge of the policies (if any) that guide how a council follows up on a YP-related infraction by a volunteer?

My experience is the SE contacts the unit leader immediately. If the offense is not actionable, the leader is warned of the "potential risk to youth in our crew." The COR is also informed. (Beav, that's why I put the SE first, but your point is taken that sometimes communication is less than perfect.)

So it comes back to the unit to sort out, but with the knowledge that a third party has eyes on the situation.

When the communication/preparation grinds to a stop, it's too cold.

I'm calling my crew president. I think we have the activity for May's meeting.

I'm glad you could "raise the bar" for some boys and their leaders. That's the point of camporees. As for scoring: not decided by the boys, I bet.

When sailing can be done with just velcro, we'll see how well the Sea Scouts of the future can tie knots!

OGE I'm not sure how you teach a physical skill, psychomotor skill ... if you don't explain, demonstrate guide and enable.

It's entirely possible that to use those four, and I would consider the skill untaught.

1. If you don't tell a boy he must read up on the handbook as part of his teaching process, he likely won't read it.

2. If he doesn't know the skill well, he'll miss an opportunity to learn from the reference.

3. Even if he knows the skill well, if he doesn't use a reference while teaching a boy, he may omit useful parts of the explanation.

4. If the boy was taught without use of the reference, he has no idea that the teacher may have skipped something (or maybe added a juicy tidbit in).

5. The temporarily enabled boy goes off not knowing where he can look in case a disability of memory overcomes him.

The process repeats itself. Civilization collapses in a heap of hearsay.

why?! The SE ...

I have several good reasons why you should go directly to the SE and not the CC or COR. Let me emphasize these are not hypotheticals.

A committee chair or charter org rep or anyone close to you and the SM has an inherent bias. In my experience it is to protect the direct contact leader from outside "threats."

Then the "sweep it under the rug" strategy kicks in. If this is an incedent that needs management this is an obvious problem. But most of the time, it's a one-off exceptional thing so what happens is half-a-dozen people get involved micro-managing a minor issue.

These people delude themselves into thinking that they are doing the adult leader a favor. They literally come of thinking that he owes them some respect or something. So when they have an agenda to push, they expect him to fall in line.

Oh, and the person who raised the issue in the first place gets treated like dirt -- not by the accused adult, but by everyone who "protected" the accused. Every good thing that person does is treated like there's some ulterior motive.

These people will spend years fighting to avoid the SE so "nobody gets drummed out of scouting." They will actively work to cripple a leader's attempts at making youth-led decisions. With the way people move from unit to unit, this gets a little ridiculous.

Eventually, someone will crack and call the SE. But, because nobody's really talking, nobody knows the whole story. Then, some other unit leader gets an unpleasant call from HQ about an incident that's a year and a half old, and instead of running program, he/she has to sort out the truth and determine with the SE if his/her youth are truly at risk.

Now maybe your CC and COR will have the spine to approach a problem like this openly and will respect you and your concerns. They may even call the SE on your behalf. But I have never found peeling the bandaid off slowly to be worth the time.

My previous statement (talk to the SM) still stands. But, if there's more to it (e.g., a hair raising on the back of your neck kind of feeling), then do us all a favor, contact the SE. That's the one person who is more likely to have a tempered reaction from experience, and most able to address serious issues effectively.

Guess your patrols will be out of uniform.

Do you compete in any contests where the boys are graded on uniforming?

If they like the patches, it may be worth risking the loss in points.

Sounds like you got this second hand from your boys maybe? If so that's a shame that something like this clouded their weekend.

Not sure why hiding in camp would improve your score? First part of inspection is all boys present and accounted for. An absent boy scores zero (sometimes negative) points on inspection and drastically reduces the patrols average.

Anyway, if all the PL's present decided to give this patrol leeway in advance, then I'd say ok -- maybe for the sake of disability awareness. But our troop takes bad kids from time to time, and we don't expect any handouts from anybody. Poor scout spirit: dock 'em. I'd rather them come crying to us about that, than an entire camporee of boys look down on them because we somehow parlayed a free pass.

Obviously, get your facts straight as much as possible. Let your district activities chair know how much your boys are bothered about it. If your boys have control over your troop's schedule, they might not stop wanting to go to camporees.

An SM doesn't need paranoid parents "keeping eyes open". Simply get a moment with the guy and tell him "I noticed that you came home with only one boy in your car. Why didn't you make sure you had two boys?"

He might be like me and not consider consider it a YP issue if you're in a car on the open road with one boy in plain view of the rest of your troop. It's no different then having an SM conference outside 300' from the other patrols.

Or, he might of considered it, but there was an extenuating circumstance that you know nothing about. He might actually appreciate someone to talk to about it.

Or, he might have considered himself "off the clock" and have no clue about the suspicions he was raising.

Or, he might be a predator gradually culling this boy for his evil designs.

Regardless, he's better off knowing that you are the kind of person who pays attention to those things and is available to help as needed.

My boys love survival weekends! So do I, actually.

I'm assuming that your concerns are solely about the LNT regs, and that none of your boys have any qualms about eating meat.

BSA is not going to revoke your troop's status if anyone snares a rabbit and eats it.

However, in setting up any kind of trap line, you are taking on the responsibility to monitor traps frequently, and quickly dispatch any prey that gets caught and injured. That's part of "a scout is kind."

Scouts who go on a 7 mile hike away from camp after setting a snare are being unkind. An animal fighting a poorly anchored snare for a few hours can tear up a lot of turf. That's where you cross into LNT violations.

You might want to consider inviting a local trapper to a meeting to explain some of these issues to you. He or she might be able to give you some pointers about how to better set your snares.

Pack's points are also valid. Besides, having a solid understanding of all edible plants might pay off in better spices for that rabbit stew - once you catch one!

You should chalk this up to a trade-off between Risk Zone and Youth Protection. On a 2.5 hour trip, a passenger makes it easier to drive the whole distance awake and alert.

Unless the car had tinted windows, I honestly wouldn't consider it a YP violation at all.

Really good advice ...

"Ask if anyone in your pack has any experience with rockets, you'll probably find someone who knows how to do it."

That person can help you judge where to set up a launch area, how to manage cleanup, etc...

A tough thing for cubs is the whole model building process. Set aside plenty of time for assembly.

P.S. - My first launch was with my pack when I was a cub. Remember it to this day.

To steer ever so slowly back on topic ...

That's Kudu's point, once yeh get past all da inflammatory nonsense he puts out

Inflammatory nonsense is to Kudu's message what EDGE is to teaching models. Just a little extra noise that may get some people's attention, but most of would do just as well without it.

We need youth who are passionate about the outdoors. (More "trail mix" than "cupcake"?) We also need youth who try again and again to impart scout skills to their peers pulling from a large toolkit. (More "teachers" than "EDGEers.")

Youth do not attend troop committee meetings -- although I don't think anyone would oppose the idea. But, our SPLs are pretty active boys in general.

I banned crew committee meetings unless the Crew President could be present. Call us dysfunctional, but it's nice to have one less meeting a month.

K,

Nice use of reference there. I do it with the boys all the time.

Fact is, when the patrol loses the knot relay because one boy drew the one knot he didn't know/remember, the skill will be imparted before the next race. The boy who costed his patrol that heat will demand the application of an effective teaching method, and if EDGE is not it, he will let the PL know. "But, I still don't get it!!!"

I guess that is the most important step in teaching: "Inspire willingness to learn."

Yes. It does apply outside of scouting. In fact there's no point in putting it to memory if you're only going to work it one hour a week and maybe a couple of days a month.

That makes it hard, but when my son said the second term of college was going to be hard, I replied "We ain't paying for easy." Same thing here. That said, they know the Scout Law and when they have stepped beyond it. No need to remind them of it.

So, here's a few lines that I thought nothing of at the time, but they turned out to have some worth to the kid ...

"Don't cuss."

"Done wrong? Make it right?"

"No point in arguing with me. Ask God what he thinks of you skipping church tomorrow."

"I did not write the rules."

"How is your teenage anxt any concern of mine?"

"Settling for second best, are we?"

Obviously underlying all of this is the knowledge that you're there for the kid. Don't be so proud as to not apologise when you do something wrong. Be bold and talk to his friends about life and such. If invited to a young lady's birthday party, make sure he brings flowers (save the gag cards for the guys). In other words, most youth will respond to that oath and law stuff after a few years of seeng their folks display it -- even if it's never said out loud.

Our shelving is dimensioned to hold patrol boxes. So, effectivly two rows of two shelves. There's about 6" of space above each box. Milk cartons hold small stuff.

Propane bottles fit under the shelves in front. Tarps/canopies on the front shelves. Somehow a small microwave fits in there, just in case ...

That allows for a narrow isle from the side door to the back hatch for some personal gear.

We store gear in a garage, and transfer to the trailer as needed.

Safety gear similar to what was mentioned above, but we include wheel chocks.

We've blown supposedly good engines hauling that thing. So, balance and share the load. Don't overload a trailer just because you're short a driver.

Troop is willing to share with the crew. But my preference on Venturing outings is to take an extra vehicle or two or pack lighter.

(Side note: at Woodbadge, I could spot the crew advisor's cars, they were smaller and had less gear!)

One of our scouts built a boy-size hamster wheel! It looked more impressive than it worked.

My suggestion is you start with a scale model using dowel rods (or even 1/4" sticks) and string. Improvize a lot and go through a number of prototypes. Test it using 4 oz sinkers for passengers!

Keep in mind that there's a reason why those things are made out of steel!

Gunny And yet somehow I feel I will have failed him if he chooses not to complete his Scouting career without that esteemed award... even though I know parents who would love to know how we got him to be who he is - as he is.

The opposite is true. Parental success is having provided opportunities.

My daughter is not going to earn a single venturing award. She is definitely Silver material, but from outside of scouting, opportunities are being handed to her because she's bright and hard working. They are to good to pass up. Awards aside, she is area/regional/maybe even national cabinet material, but she feels she won't have time for office. Have I failed her? No way! Venturing has let her know there are some great people out there who see her as a leader.

Will she look back and regret not focusing on a couple of awards? Maybe. But she'll know that neither I nor our council VOA advisor ever shortchanged her.

I would like to point out that Kudu's way of instructing is

1. Deconstruct our presupposed existing models.

2. Give us a reference.

3. Challenge us to apply it.

4. Trust that we will refer to it as needed.

The reference he gave us follows roughly the same model. (Its references are the Patrol Leader's HB and Boys Life.) It's very clear that the method is not a one-shot deal. It needs to be implemented repeatedly (about 12 times a year). New trainers (i.e. patrol leaders) will be continuously cycled into the process. It will require constant monitoring.

But, it sure sounds like fun!

Ours is titled by an individual. (Not me, thank goodness.) I think the SM is the current holder.

Seems a monumental waste of time better spent helping boys.

I use EDGE with my boys, I teach my boys to use EDGE, the have grown because of it. In doing so I believe I'm also teaching them how to be law abiding citizens instead of throwing out those laws/rules/requirements they don't agree with.

The ability to repeal needless laws is a foundation of our constitution. I think my boys will be better citizens if they learn what EDGE lacks, rise to authority in the national cabinet, and strike down these requirements.

I'll change my mind if the youngn's taught by your EDGEers are more competent than the youngn's taught by my Handbookers.

If somebody comes up with a better rule than "Reach, Throw, Row, and Go (with support)" for teaching water rescure, I'm open to it. When folks figured out that compressions-only had a higher success rate, I asked my re-certification instructor how soon the rule would change. I don't consider any of those discussions a waste of time because that's what distinguishes rescuers from shamans!

If EDGE is indeed better than reference-based instruction, if in fact requiring the use of books in every facet of education had nothing to do with the West rising out of the Dark Ages ... well, then let's EDGE away!

But if you have your doubts, relay them to your boys. They might actually learn how to teach in the process.

Either way, as CC, you'll have your hands full. I see some practical things need to be done. Hopefully keeping busy with these will take your mind of politics:

Troop which was on the verge of collapsing until we showed up (i.e. it had -zero- boys and the equipment seems to have been taken by a Venturing crew).

Do you know the Venturing crew advisor or president (youth leader)? They may be clueless about your equipment needs and happy to return or at least share some gear. Moreover, some of them might be more than willing to support your program by providing training. (Teaching skills to other youth groups is part of the requirements for a Venturer to earn awards.) If you are really really lucky, one of them might be SM or ASM material and looking for this kind of opportunity.

Have you met leaders from neighboring troops? District roundtables are useful for this sort of thing. There may be programs that the boys would like to know about, and if you keep track of them, that might help the SM.

basically went AWOL for football season and most of the preceding summer

Are there good spots to camp near your home football field? (Maybe a farm or some community park.) Perhaps a parent in your troop could provide a bonfire after a game.

Understand that some troops, except for camp, simply don't meet in the summer. It's just too hard to keep things rolling. Ask your SM if this strategy will work best for him for this year. See if there's a weekend where you all can gather for a picnic or easy going camp-out in the summer.

works at the scout shop

That means he's a council employee. Get to know his boss because he is probably also your scout exectutive, and sometimes this disorgnization (just like your unwillingness to dive in) is work related.

Of all of these avenues, only one of them may pan out, but that's one more resource than you had before. Then point out to all of the parents that you've done this stuff (or whatever), and ask what are they doing?

The goal is to make your SM's foibles a small issue because everyone else is pitching in just enough to make sure the boys have the program they signed up for.

Then, you sit down with the SM and COR and say "I need to start finding my replacement. Don't know how long it will take. What about you?"

Maybe snake oil is too harsh.

Placebo may be more appropriate. You can use the term to make you feel like you're doing something standard and novel. That gives you the confidence to know what your doing is "right", you press forward, apply some creative juices, add a few steps, lather rinse repeat, and success!!!

It's the stone in the stone soup. Maybe someone observed that the villagers were starving for no good reason, and said "If I plop an acronym in the pot the villagers (scouts & scouters) will bring out their veggies and stock (raw talent) and this soup'll get cooked faster." I'd just like to know who that guy was and which village he tested it on!

put simply, the higher the profile, the more likely you will have a parasail than a tent. You'll need put out extra lines to anchor the thing on windy days.

I carry aluminum poles from a retired dining fly to reinforce our rectangular dome tents against the wind when we camp on the beach. A pole goes diagonally across the front of the fly, leaning into the wind.

A variety of stakes is also essential. Sand vs sod vs rock require different style and types of steel. The harsh reality is there's no one-size-fits-all.

If all of that complexity is overwhelming, you may want to just bring a small rack with hooks for a tarp to put over your gear. Park it on the upwind side of your tent as a windbreak.

Don't let the swagger of Eagles fool you. Most of us know that there was a bit of good timing, grace, and positive reinforcement that went into getting us our birds.

The best scout I ever knew aged out at 2nd class. When I was 12, he invited me to come join his troop.