Quixote

kwc - i am using the definition in the dictionary hence my point regarding "the" definition instead of "a" definition.

I miss where my religion enters into the picture unless you're trying to further define the word "avow" in which case i point you to the post by tj where he admits that he has told others within scouts that he is a homosexual - hence he has avowed his homosexuality to others, who happen to be members of the BSA.

As for him openly discussing his sexuality, that has no place in scouting, hetero or homosexual.

My point is that while he has been careful in telling those around him, he has at least opened the door to the closet if not come out of it to use NJ's example.

It's nice to see that the same crowd of people who practice moral relativism also subscribe to the Clintonesque practice of redefining words in the english language to suit their arguments.

The relevant question is whether tj is an "avowed" homosexual using THE definition of avow, not "A" definition.

According to your posting, you have told other scouters and if i read correctly, possibly some scout execs - I would say that you have openly told some of your homosexuality and are indeed an avowed homosexual and as such are in violation of the BSA policy.

You can hide behind definitions all you want, but the fact is that, by your actions, you are in violation of the membership policies of the BSA.

You can't pick and chose which rules you want to follow - it doesn't work that way.

tj,

Congrats on your "coming out". I appreciate and applaud your deciding to be honest with the rest of the forum.

Like the others though, I must question how you reconcile yourself to living the Scout Oath and Law when you most certainly are living a lie within the BSA. I'm sure you justify yourself in saying that the good you do outweighs the example of deceipt you practice, but it doesn't.

littlebillie states

"genes are part of God's design for humankind, and so a genetic homosexual must be part of God's plan as well".

I probably fall into the category you describe here, but must point out that from my perspective you can say the same thing about diseases and other forms of abnormal genetics such as the gene that causes arthritis or the genes responsible for making certain races more succeptable to some diseases than others. If there is a homosexual gene, it is just as much an abnormality as other genes that cause other conditions and defects in man and is something to overcome as it is definately NOT normal.

If God uses genetics for His purpose (which i wouldn't be surprised at), then I guess he just intends for everyone with a fault in their genetic code to give in to their condition? I don't buy it.

Let's take the genetic marker HLAB27 (the one for rheumatoid arthritis) as an example. I know that I personally have tested negative for this, but others in my family have it. Are they to just give in and not fight AGAINST the condition? No doubt the STANDARD genetic structure of man does not include this gene and it is an abnormality that sticks around - why hasn't evolution done away with these abnormalities? evolution has had plenty of time to do so according to science. I guess God intended for people in my family to develop arthritis and other auto immune diseases? Maybe he intended for us to have the condition, but not to just accept it and say - "oh, it's just who i am".

Is it POSSIBLE that God does indeed test his children and place obstacles in their way to draw them to Him by seeking His help in OVERCOMING their personal condition?

lv,

"Antonin Scalia, on the basis of a reactionary interpretation of the US Constitution, one that flew in the face of constitutional jurisprudence since the Civil War, declared that American citizens had no constitutional right to vote for the president of the United States!"

So, we have a "reactionary" on the USSC I'd agree, but note that from my position on the political spectrum that it's not Justice Scalia

Finally, your contempt of conservative values and those who hold them is noted. I would hope however that while you hold Justice Scalia and his legal opinions in contempt, you might at least display a touch of respect for the POSITION which he holds.

The establishment of secure locations in the event of any kind of national emergency has been around for MANY years.

Nice to know socialism in all it's forms is well represented by lV within the BSA.

LV - please note that labeling one "homophobic" is just as muddy as you accuse others of.

Pot, meet kettle. yes, i know "he threw at me first".

To be blunt, I would prefer that the public servants that I support with my tax dollars would not spend their time praying while "on the job."

Perhaps if some of those servants that didn't say a prayer did, the country would be a little better off

I work in the defense industry for a private company. We need to have an approved charge number for every task we work on. To my knowledge, none has ever existed for praying on company time.

Please explain $600 toilet seat

I never understood the need some feel to verbalize prayer or pray en mass.

And i never understood the need by some to criticize others for praying, either en mass or alone to their God

YIS

Quixote

Unsuccessful Windmill Tilter & Prayor of Prayers.

establishment of religion

Far cry from "Seperation of Church & State" and even a little different from "Freedom of Religion"

As for your point regarding Scalia, I would agree with those moral relativists out there on this one that it depends on your viewpoint as to his (and your) wisdom. But then again, what does he know, he's just one of the "supremes".

While we're on the subject, isn't it interesting how we lament society today not respecting the older generations and it's our generation that refers to Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States as "the supremes"

Our pack went to a March crossover last year and it worked out a lot better than having them cross a the end of the school year. Yes, the pack loses some kids, but that's the way the Webelos program is designed - they are SUPPOSED to cross over early, not at the end of the school year.

The boys get to be scouts and some maybe even tenderfoot before they go to summer camp and they know the older boys better and have a better experience IMO.

Dear Windmills,

Please note that while I pointed out that the pinewood derby is for the kids' cars, i did not advocate 6-10 year olds running pieces of wood through band saws or power miter saws.

However, even a 6 year old can use sandpaper (once mom or dad or uncle or Don Quixote has used the Tim Allen scrap removal methods).

For Example:

My 5 year old painted his "schoolbus" (a blank piece with an extra piece that he and i glued on top - Elmers is quite kid friendly and doesn't taste bad, but not as well as paste) with a small paintbrush and water based yellow paint. Did it look as good as the Dale Earnhardt #3 car with special Imron paint that one of his contemporaries entered? NO Did it go as fast? NO Did he have a smile on his face a mile wide the entire time? YES.

I cut my 11 year olds' car down for him on the band saw as well to save his fingers (didn't do so well on my thumb, but that's another story and on the spot exercise in webelos first aid - complete with "life like" blood). He was able to do the following ...

1. Sand the block

2. Paint using spray enamel (with Dad supervision, not Dad DO) and yes, his fingers were blue afterwards.

3. Buff the wheels using a Dremel (with Dad supervision, not Dad DO)

4. Buff the axles using a Dremel (with Dad supervision, not Dad DO)

5. Install wheels and axles using small hammer

It didn't go that fast, but it was HIS car. It was HIS race.

I on the otherhand did a GREAT job of making my very own Wheel Horse tractor complete with Lego Man Driver and Big Block Chevy engine (from a monster truck kit bought for more money than the pinewood kit cost). Complete with stickers, counterweights and Chromed breathers and exhaust pipes. Satisfied MY need to DO.

BTW, I would suggest just using a hand sander to remove at least one layer of the paint and repaint using VERY thin coats. Hope your son has a great PW derby.

YIS

Don Quixote

Former windmill tilter & PW derby official.

EDIT - Please note the above was written tongue planted firmly in cheek before reading the entire thread and is intended for the Daddy Do crowd, not those parents who actually let their kid *gasp* build *gasp* their own PW Derby car.(This message has been edited by Quixote)

I thought the Pinewood Derby was for kids, not adults.

We have a senior scout assigned to each campout responsible for things such as finding out camping fees, etc. and preparing a permission slip / information sheet for the campout.

If the permission slip isn't prepared in a timely manner, the responsible scout get's reprimanded by the SPL - the scouts give the permission slips to the other scouts and collect them and give them to the outdoor chairman who keeps the files.

If a scout fails to turn in the signed permission slip when due, he is not allowed on the trip unless there are extenuating circumstances.

It's a little harsh, but the prior SM had even cancelled trips if the permission slips weren't handed out on time - something i don't agree with.

Very similar thing has occured in our troop. Two boys agreed to run for SPL, the existing ASPL and one of the older PL's. All of the adults and the senior patrol expected the ASPL to get elected, but when the vote was taken, the ASPL didn't win. The look on the new SPL's face was priceless - classic dear in a headlight look. He had wanted to be SPL, but didn't really think he would be elected, but wanted to provide a choice.

He is now warming up to the idea and actually will do a decent job (i believe) with a lot of room to grow. He appointed the existing ASPL to be his ASPL and they are approaching it kinda as a joint SPL position. We'll see how it works.

Good Luck. My only advice is not to appoint an SPL if it can be avoided - it is an elected position and the boys should take another vote.

One of the dads in the Troop i'm SA (soon to be SM of) in went on last weekends trip and i spent the drive talking to him about needing to get the committee trained, etc. Before long, he asked what type of training he would need (just so happened there was a NLE course at council on Monday Nite) - when i told him, his response was "don't the boys have a meeting on monday nite?" Yes, but it's ok if he INVESTS that time to get training that will help his son and the other boys - I volunteered to pick up and drop off his son. Parents at the meeting were amazed that he was getting training - i pointed out to them (the ones who were feeling superior and catish about him going to training) that "well, at least HE's willing to make the COMMITTMENT that we're asking of the boys unlike others who have been around for years and STILL haven't gone to training."

Actually, the gentleman who just got NLE training brought to my attention that at the Troop meeting, there are a LOT of adults in the back of the room and it would be great if you could harness their experience / time to DO SOMETHING instead of gossipping and "looking in on" the meeting. I've proposed and will continue to propose to the committee that they leave the room to the boys for them to conduct their meeting and maybe they could go into the other room and go through some TRAINING. I'm determined to do this.

YIS

Quixote

Yaworski,

Tell him it doesn't work too good - at least it didn't 30 years ago when i tried it.

www.bateau.com

There are FREE plans for canoes - whatever you do, please use EPOXY instead of Polyeurothane - EPOXY is water proof, poly is more like water resistant.

I've used their plans to build one of their boats and it is great. I would suggest buying the EPOXY through them as well - it ends up being cheaper in the long run - get the sample kit first to have the practice on making filets so you don't waste materials.

I did keep the original post in mind. My point is that since I have made a COMMITTMENT to be somewhere - I will honor that Committment. Sorry son, but I can't go with you because I gave my WORD.

If my son committs to ANYTHING, he must follow through or pay the consequences. As an example:

Wanted to play pop warner football - we paid for the registration and 2 weeks into practice, he wanted to quit - we said, Fine - as long as he reimursed us for the money and HE had to tell his coach FACE TO FACE that he was quitting and the reason.

We are trying to teach him that your word is the most valuable asset you have when dealing with others and it shouldn't be cheapened at ANY cost. If you committ to something, you committ 100%, not less. If you want out of something there is usually a cost - we're trying to teach that lesson as well as early as possible to our boys.

If i require this of him, it would be kind of hypocritical of me not to do the same.(This message has been edited by Quixote)

That is, the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man?

I'm in a little different position than most posters here in that my son in scouts is really my step-son. I'd do anything in the world for him that i could, just like my 4 year old.

I was Asst. cubmaster of his pack, and then crossed over to the troop last year as a ASM and have now agreed to step up to SM.

In the events we've had this year, usually, it's been without the presence of the SM so i've been doing somewhat double duty anyway.

When my son crossed over i asked him whether he wanted me to volunteer to be a leader with the troop and discussed with him what it meant and he agreed to my volunteering just as he agreed to my volunteering for the SM position. The one rule is he wouldn't be treated like all the other boys because i will not sign off of anything of his unless it is done as a troop or patrol and even then i want somebody elses name in his book. Usually on campouts i don't spend any time at all alone with him - when we're at scouts, i'm not "Dad" anymore, i'm the SA, or SM unless he has a personal issue in which case he has to tell me that he needs to speak privately to me.

I'm also his Sunday School Teacher (conned into by my wife who is the SS Super.) so he doesn't get much of a break from me on a lot of weeks, but he sees his father each week as well and his paternal grandparents once a week.

I'm hoping I can remain as impartial with his little brother when he gets into scouting.

NJ - thanks.

The troop apparently has a long history of not doing things according to Hoyle.

Yes, Scoutmom, there were already 2 leaders riding with the boys, and it was felt that the boys couldn't be left alone with JUST 2 adults.

My work is cut out for me...i need a BIG pair of scisors to cut some of these apron strings.

Going to an event the other day and ran into a boy that was in the pack with my son - my son was amazed that the other boy had a patrol leader emblem on his shirt and he's not even 1st class!!! So, i asked my son's PL to explain to my son how someone gets to be a PL and his response was "well, the SM ok's it" (the PL just made Star this summer). I then said, "no, tell him the real way" which evoked the answer "the SM appoints you i guess".

I then asked him when the last time he VOTED on a position in the troop and his response was never - he's a Star scout, been in the troop for 2-3 years and has NEVER voted on anything! GRRRRRRRrrrrrrrr

Yes, i pointed out that the position is elected and advised him to read chapter 2 in the scout handbook and to commit it to memory, cause that's how things are done in scouts - i've since had the same conversation with the SPL.

Please say LOTS of prayers.....

Ok, i'll give some more info....

This was a Troop function (about 50-75% of the troop was there - we're a small troop). the comment by one of the other leaders was "but they can't ride without adult supervision" that i found to be almost comical in context because the boys weren't riding on any roads, they were riding on sandy trails for a few miles through the woods. Bicycle helmets were required and radios were with the 2 adult leaders (with family radios) already riding with the boys. As it turns out, they didn't even ride a lot of the trails because they were too sandy - they ended up walking their bikes.

My take was that the two adults that were delivering the trailer at the campsight would have been just as well off staying at the campsite in radio contact with the boys and leaders on the bikes.