ParkMan

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Now is the part of the transfer I am dreading, why we are leaving and having folks follow us over. As I mentioned, word is out, and I already had one Scout call my oldest about the matter. he plans on transferring. And I can see 2 to 3 others doing the same.

Had the SM message me last nite about what could the troop do to keep us. This was after my boys visited the troop. The positivity  and happiness was a 180 turnaround of late. So I told the SM it is too late. But I want to meet with him, and go into specifics without having to worry about eavesdroppers or dealing with the challenging people causing the issues. I've had enough of them. But the hard part will be conveying that it wasn't all the SM's fault. It wasn't. The "family friendly" policy is something he inherited, it just was not being used like it is now.  And that is why my kids have been frustrated. And when parents won't listen to the SM, let alone his existing ASMs, it is his fault. Combined with not having an active CC, he is trying to keep the troop together by himself. I know he's getting frustrated.

You probably already know this, but...

I'd just make the conversation positive about what you and your sons want to see in a troop. 

This change is not really about what you dislike in the current troop.  This move is about what you all want to get from Scouting and the difficult realization that you need to go somewhere else to get it.  In an ideal world, the current troop would be providing this.  It's only through painful reflection that you've realized you need to seek that elsewhere.  If he asks why you cannot get that here, then by all means, give examples of how the move towards family friendly Scouting has hampered the ability to get that in the current troop.  But I wouldn't start by criticizing the current troop.  

I'm reminded that Wood Badge, like all training, is merely an opportunity to acquire knew knowledge and skills. 

The beads, neckerchief, and woggle are merely symbols presented to someone who has undergone the process of attempting to acquire more knowledge & skills.  We can debate eternally whether 6 days of training and 5 projects over 18 months warrants special symbols.  To me, the beads are more a recognition of completing the ticket than sitting through some classes. 

A simple ticket really just cheats one person - the Scouter.  Sure, it seems like the Scouter gets by easy.  But, the goal of Wood Badge really isn't getting in the beads.  The goal of Wood Badge is to grow as a Scouter by going through the process.  The ticket is really that part of the process where a leader sits down and establishes a vision he'd like to achieve for his unit and then works through five tasks to help in accomplishing that vision.  The participant should look for some goals and ticket items that are worth the effort.  The course staff should help to encourage a Scouter to challenge himself - but again, if a Scouter is determined to get by easy, it can happen.

One related thing - I would encourage anyone who goes through the program to write a ticket that benefits their unit.  In our council, it's required that 4 of the 5 ticket items have to directly relate to your primary role in Scouting.  If you're an ASM, then is has to be something to do with you being an ASM.  I get that in some councils it's different.  I'd still encourage you to write ticket items that related to your unit.  Being an ASM who then goes off and does ticket items about district or council stuff is missing the mark a bit. 

Great choice @Eagle94-A1.

While I fully get the desire to help improve a troop, at some point we all realize they often don't want to change.  Your son's time in Scouting is just way too short to struggle with a troop that doesn't share your son's vision of how a troop should work.  Your time as a parent is too precious to have the level of frustration that this troop has caused you.  

All my best in finding the right troop for you all!

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

since WB has changed to an "intro to leadership training", and is no longer  the pinnacle training for those who have already demonstrated a high level of scout skills, scouter skills, etc... why does this basic leadership training have special beads, ceremonies, and other recognitions?  Does this not promote the idea that WB is somehow superior to all the other trainings, or at the very least imply the participant has fulfilled a myriad of the other trainings and have significant experience to show as well. 

If it truly is "just another training", then it should be treated as such. I suppose that is what happens when the pre-requisites and training changed, but the name does not.

You don't get the beads for sitting through the course.  You get the beads because you demonstrate the application of the knowledge by completing the ticket.

I use a new unit as an excuse to buy a new shirt.  I figure I'm involved in a unit for several years, so might as well have a new shirt that will last the duration.

It's a minor thing as it lets me "retire" my old shirt when I leave a unit.

I agree with @Sentinel947.  I've been a CC for about 5 years and watched the SM role closely.  Here's take:

1) Your family always takes priority.  

2) As Scoutmaster, you set the tone for the troop & the ASMs.  The tone and your direction is significantly more important than whether your on every trip and at every event.

3) If you don't create space for others, they will never fill it.  In other words, if you do it all - then the opportunity is not there for others to step up.  

3) Failure is OK.  You're job is bigger than an event or a camping trip.  It's ok to let things occasionally fail due to #1, #2, or #3 above.

We had some success one year where the DL took out the calendar and figured out that there were 26 den meetings in a year and that there were 20 requirements that have to get done.  She called a parents meeting on den meeting.  At the meeting she had the Cubmaster spend an hour with the boys.  While that was going on she brought the calendar and the list of requirements to the parents and told them "I need each of you to sign up to teach two activities."

What I learned from that experience is that a being a den leader is not about the drudgery of planning field trips or coming up with crafts or games.  It's about looking at each requirement and saying - what's the most fun way I can think of to spend 30 minutes on that with the boys.  When I realized that, being a den leader wasn't so scary.

19 hours ago, fred johnson said:

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I've seen lots of frustration with Wood Badgers lately.  The key complains are two.  First, brow beating people who have not taken it to take it.  Second, over-emphasizing it as way more important than it really is. 

Over the years, I've taken lots of high performance team building, leadership training and MBA related classes.  When I took Woodbadge, it was good but not enlightening.  In no way way, would I consider someone who took woodbadge as now trained.  IMHO, it has some good training, but it's more about building excitement or rebuilding excitement.  

This seems to be a pretty good summary of what I'm reading too.  My take here is:

Brow beating, acting superior, etc - this are not good tactics for any of us to employ.  They don't seem to serve Wood Badge well.  Maybe you'll get one or two more people for your course, but in the long run do a lot more harm than good.

Efficacy of the course - Out of this topic, I've realized that it's a mistake for Wood Badge to simply label itself as "leadership" training and most certainly not the "best leadership training ever".  Lots of us take leadership training in other places - especially at work.  I think it sets expectations too high for the course too and then people walk away and say "eh, not that great".  I liked @Eagledad's description above.  Further, regardless of what we call it, there will certainly always be a good segment of our community for whom it's not adding a lot of new value.  That doesn't mean it's not a good course for the BSA to have.  There are lots of Scouters who don't have all these skills.  I know that from my troop's perspective, I see participants making a bigger impact after taking it - that's a good thing.  

56 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

Parkman, the kicker is that the comments weren't always delivered by a one-off, grade D WBer.  That I can accept any day of the week as he/she may not speak for the rest of the community.  More often than not, these comments were made by folks that were pretty high in the WB food chain, folks with more than two beads.

So I play the cards I'm dealt, and go hiking and camping instead.

Understood @desertrat77.

I'm reminded of a interesting Wood Badge fact I learned along the way.  The National Wood Badge director in any country is entitled to wear five beads.  As I understand it, in the United States the last person to wear five beads was Green Bar Bill.  Every person since him who has been entitled to be a five beader has refused the recognition.  I always thought that showed a lot of respect and class.

Your experience, unfortunately like others, clearly shows that not everyone who has completed Wood Badge understands class.  You'd like to think the three and four beaders would get it - but I've sadly learned too well this weekend that not all do.

Here's hoping that at least some of those folks will start getting the message that they need to think a lot harder about their own actions.

@desertrat77 As a supporter of the program, I'm embarassed to read that there are those that make those claims.  On their best day they are ridiculous exagerations.  Trying to say that Wood Badge training is superior to other management or leadership type training is the wrong approach.  Rather then saying it's better than someone else's course, we'd be better served by describing it as it is.  Making grandiose claims is really not needed.  There's more than enough good reasons for someone to attend without making those claims.

Anyone who tells you that you're lazy, not up to snuff, or don't care is simply a bad ambassador for Wood Badge.  I'd rather have 100 empty courses than fill one through guilty and criticism.  Frankly if I was in a position to do so, I'd cancel their course.

8 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

Eagle, I think you are correct.  I recall beading ceremonies from the past, my first being the fall of '75.  Pretty dignified affair.  Part of a normal troop court of honor.  My SM was presented his beads by a council scouter.  It took about five minutes.  A brief description of the WB program, a few personalized comments towards my SM, neckerchief, beads, certificate, applause, thank you, next on the agenda.  No critter songs, cups or songbooks hanging from belts, kudu horn blowing, etc.

 

Around here, the ceremonies typically follow a pretty typical flow.

A small group of Wood Badge staff attends the event.  It includes the Scoutmaster and usually the Troop Guide, ticket counselor, and a couple of other folks who were able to attend.  It kinda depends on the event and availability of the staff.

1. Event emcee introduces the course director.
2. Course director does a brief intro and explains what Wood Badge is.  The other staff introduce themselves.
3. The other staff who are there present the Wood Badge items: the neckerchief, woggle, & course certificate.  They’ll usually say a few words about their significance and history.
4. Course director presents the beads. 
5. Course director may add a few extra remarks and may present a few extra items.  Usually it will be something about person's ticket - particularly if it had an impact on the group at the beading.
6. The participant says a few words.

Ceremony is done.  It probably takes about 10 minutes.  If it's an event with Scouts, they generally try to move along quickly.  If it's done in front of a Wood Badge oriented group, they'll usually go longer - maybe tell some stories or something like that.  

Interestingly enough, I've seen a few done in front of Cub Scout packs where they'll go a little longer and explain things a little more for the cubs benefit - they seem to enjoy that from what I've seen.  Most Cub Scout packs might see a beading every 3-4 ears, so it's not a terribly common occurrence.  I get the sense that it's also kinda neat that the course director is often some really experienced Scouter who is comfortable in front of a group of Scouts.

Is 10 minutes too long?  Not sure.  I see the value of some ceremony here and I kinda like that they explain things like the neckerchief, woggle, and beads.

I've thought a lot about the recruiting aspect of Wood Badge.  As a Troop CC, I have seen a lot of benefit in having leaders attend, and so try to encourage it.  Sorry to make this all so long - but over zealous recruiting was described as a major complaint, so I thought I'd start by sharing what I tend to do.

Why I recruit

One of the biggest benefits to our troop is the ticket process.  For us, it has encouraged leaders to get more focused in their involvement with the troop.  I have seen it transform a volunteer who is present, but waiting for guidance into someone with more confidence who will take on some ownership, initiative, and drive to accomplish their goals.  This has been very good for us and has helped us to strengthen as an adult leadership team.  However, don't get me wrong - we have people who show up and just do that naturally.  It's just that our volunteers who take it tend to come back and have a bigger impact in the troop after taking the course.

How I explain the course:

So, when I encourage attendance, I usually take a few minutes to explain the following:

1) Give a fair description of the course

I explain that the first part is a well done course that consists of two, three day weekends.  The materials covers leadership skills in a Scouting context.  It's intent is not to train on Scout or outdoor skills.   You will however learn a lot about Scouting the full Scouting program - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing.  You will also learn a lot about the patrol method and how a Scout led troop operates.

I tell them that one of my favorite parts of the course is the people.  The staff are all experienced, energetic Scouters.  Many of the staff have taught the course multiple times.  The participants are Scouters from all over the council.  They run the range or program, experience, and rolls.  You'll have den leaders, Cubmaster, Scoutmasters, Committee Members, and more.  While on the course, you'll learn from all these people and significantly grow the number of Scouters you can call and ask for help and guidance.

In summing up, I share that the whole process is very well organized and prepared.  I share a little about the staff selection and development process.  I let them know that by the time they get there, the staff has put in three weekends getting ready for the course.  I share that many participants rave about the experience - though I caution that you have to go in willing to embrace it.

2) I explain the ticket process

I tell them that a really big part of the experience is the ticket.  I share the idea that the course staff work with them to set goals for their position in Scouting.  The staff will then help them translate those goals into a series of meaningful, but challenging projects designed to help them accomplish those goals.  After the completion of the course, they'll spend time completing those projects.  I do tell them that the projects are not intended to be busy work.  They are meaningful things they they are things you'd probably do otherwise - it's just that Wood Badge helps put some structure around them to encourage you to complete them in a timely way.

3) I will point to others that have taken it

We generally have 3-4 people in our ranks that have taken Wood Badge.  So, I point out those people.  

One on one conversations

I will usually approach a few people individually.  The enthusiastic ASM or committee member who is off to a good start, but I think could use a boost.  The experience Scouter that I think would enjoy the experience as well as the interaction and enthusiasm of the participants and staff.  I don't pressure - but I encourage.  Something like "Hey Bob - you're doing a great job in the troop.  I think Wood Badge would be something you'd get a lot out of.  I'd encourage you to attend."

Another thing came to mind

One of the single best Scouting courses I've taken was a two hour University of Scouting session on Troop annual planning.  What that thought me was to focus for a small amount of time on your big goals for the year.  Is it a trip to Philmont, a three day canoeing trip, a beach camping experience, or something else that's new and exciting.  From there, start planning your monthly camping trips.  If your troop is going to Philmont, it will need some warm up hikes, so plan that into the calendar.  From there the Scouts then need to start figuring out what has to happen each week to support that.  i.e., if you're canoeing this month you might need some skills instruction - then build that in.  You'll need time to plan food, gear, supplies, etc.  

I mention this because I find that a very common mistake of both adults & scouts is that they look at the troop meeting as an event to plan.  They then try to figure out 90 minutes of stuff to do.  Given the limited experience of most scouts (and most adults), that leads to lots of elongated lecture time.  However, I think that's backwards.  Instead, they should look at what they need to accomplish the month and then figure out how they can leverage the troop meetings to get it done.  I see troop meetings as a gift - they give the scouts a  3-4 hours of meeting time a month to make their camping trip the best thing ever.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen a PLC have a lackluster meeting only to then see an email that says "come 30 minutes before the meeting so that we can plan food for the campout this weekend."  This mistake results in boring troop meetings and then underwhelming camping trips.

Hi @Jenn,

I suspect that it's not that your troop doesn't want to improve.  It's that the troop is a bubble.  They don't know what they don't know and don't realize that there is a bigger world out there that is honestly a whole lot more fun.  If this was a troop with a long time leader doing this, then I'd suspect the Scoutmaster doesn't want to change.  But, in this case where there are leadership changes, I suspect it's a lot more about simply not knowing. I'm guessing that they figure they're going along just fine.

There is an intro level course - ILST (Intro to Leadership Skills for Troops).  It is designed to be taught by older scouts to younger Scouts at the troop level.  I'd look to see if you could get this going for your troop.  Simple exposure to the materials will get some wheels turning.

There is an second level scouts - NYLT (National Youth Leadership Training).  It is taught at the council level. Often a troop will send the SPL and upcoming SPLs to this class.  It is a very good way for your older scouts to learn leadership skills in the context of a well structured course.  I would highly recommend this.

If your Scouts are not active in the OA, I'd encourage that too.  I've seen this be a way for older Scouts to intermingle with other older Scouts.  By osmosis, they'll see how they lead and emulate some of that.

@Sentinel947 I think that's a very good collection of the frustrations that I am reading about Wood Badge.  I fully agree - feedback is a gift.  I can't say that I see the same things, but I'm certainly fine in accepting everyone's word that they happen.  I think that our national Wood Badge leaders should be thinking about and learning from this perception.  I think Wood Badge should take the high road here.

I think a big part of being a leader is in modeling the behavior you'd hope to see in others.  So, as a Wood Badge community, lets listen, learn, and change.  These things are currently all in the spirit of the Wood Badge material.  Let's leverage them and grow.  I keep coming back to the idea that it would serve Wood Badge well if the course focused some time and energy on the idea of being an Ambassador for Scouting. Underscore that often it's not what you do, but how you do it that is remembered.

While I understand the frustration, it still feels off to me that as Scouters we justify these sorts of generalizations and criticisms of Wood Badgers as a whole.  Why is it okay for the Scouter community to treat an entire community with disdain like this?  I guess I don't understand how in an organization that is so modeled on values and leadership, it's considered OK simply because "they've earned it."

2 minutes ago, cocomax said:

At the last Camp-o-ree campfire I went to we had all the Wood Badge folks take the stage and sing 5 or so Wood Badge songs that none of the scouts know and most of the Wood Badge folks did not remember too well ether, then they gave out an award to a Wood Badge person, who then gave a 5 minute or so speech,  and then gave we all got a 10 minute or so Wood Badge recruitment talk.  All the boys and scouters were as quiet as could be and let them have their time. After all that most the Wood Badge folks then returned to their seats, but 15 or so stayed up front and moved just off stage. . .  and had a little reunion meet up, with loud laughter, jokes, loud talking, for them the campfire was over and it was time for fun and reconnecting with old friends . . .

. . . only problem was it was time for the OA Call Out Ceremony. . .  while the 3 flutes were playing off in the distance we all treated to the loud laughter and shenanigans of the Wood Badge crew up fount, they continued to be loud through out the OA Ceremony, making it very hard to even hear the names being called.  .  .

     It really took the air out of the OA Ceremony,  it was quite sad really.

     The boys notice things like this.         

Clearly that was inappropriate and wrong.  Scouters make bad choices all the time.

Reminds me of a time we took our Cub Pack to the Council Cuboree.  The OA folks decided that it would be great to have an hour long OA drumming demonstration at the evening Cuboree campfire.  So, 6 guys came out and drummed for an hour in front of 600 participants. Needless to say our pack lasted 15 minutes.  We did enjoy great sport that night back at the campsite "Hey Bob - are they still going?  Yep".  Classic. 

OA Call Out Ceremonies around here are kinda like that too.  Ok, we have a great Camporee campfire and then at the end and spend 15 minutes tapping out new OA members.  It's great fun for the new OA members.  The younger guys or the ones that don't get elected are often bored to tears.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not all WBers are horrible. I've worked with many great ones over the years.

Then why do folks keep referring to WB'ers as a group - like they're all the same?  The WB'ers ruined this, the WB'ers ruined that.  Look at the WB'ers - they're messing stuff up again.

It just feels like whatever personal frustration folks have grown into a sort of thing where "real scouters get to make fun of the WB'ers."

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

I've served in several councils over the years, and in more than a few of those, the WBers were collectively "as described" by the criticisms here in the forum. 

Though I haven't taken WB, I know how to read a syllabus.  And heaven knows, I have been subjected to many a long-winded recitation of every facet of WB courses by graduates.  I can also assess performance.

There is often quite a gap between what WB teaches and how many WBers perform their scouting duties.  Not to mention how they interact (or don't) with non-WBers.

I just get the sense that there's a thing in the Scouter community where it's considered an accepted practice to make fun of Wood Badge and those that have taken it.  I understand that many feel that they are justified in doing it.  It really just seems that somewhere along the way it has grown into something bigger than being rightly frustrated with some Scouters who have taken Wood Badge.

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

I do not have any problem with the Wood Badge course,  or people taking Wood Badge.  Most my scouter friends took Wood Badge and it was just a training course to them and nothing more.

Saying "Wood Badge is just another training course" is technically correct - but it misses some of the most important parts of the experience.  Let me see if I can explain.

First - It's a shared experience.  A Wood Badge course is two very long three day weekends.  During that time, the participants spend a lot time getting to know each other.  The whole course is structured to encourage that - kinda like the patrol method can for Scouts.  Some of the participants clearly have a "when can I go home and mow my lawn" vibe.  But, many others embrace the experience.  I'll admit - I enjoyed the people I met and their passion, energy, and enthusiasm.  Call me crazy, but I enjoy Scouting and I enjoy getting to know people who enjoy Scouting.   It's very natural to make new friends on a course.  And yes, my two weekends turned into some friendships that I maintain today.

Second - It's a personal accomplishment.  Much of the Wood Badge experience is the time spent working on your ticket.  Sure, some Scouters create simple tickets that are easy to finish.  But, many create tickets that challenge them quite a bit personally.  These are projects that you work on for the better part of 18 months. When I got home from my course, I had absolutely no idea how I'd get mine done.  I put in hundreds of hours working on it.  So yeah, when I got my beads, I felt a pretty significant sense of personal accomplishment.

Sure - i get the Wood Badge isn't the pinnacle of Scouting  knowledge.  It's a leadership course set in a Scouting context.  It's can provide you tools to be a better Scouter - but they are just that - tools.

I'm 100% in support of an advanced course for Scoutmasters.  That would be wonderful.  A sort of Wood Badge or Powder Horn scale course about being a Scoutmaster.  Scout skills, boy led, patrol method, etc.  That would be an awesome course!

I'm not looking to start up a debate here.  I just think that the volume of negative Wood Badge comments are excessive.

I'm in favor of more and better training for Scouters.  I've written about that before.  I'd really like to see for each major position (SM, ASM, MC, CM, DL) a more significant program of training to get you ready.  Not just position training -> IOLS -> Wood Badge.  I would think that the programs need to be tailored to the role. i.e., as a CC it's only tangentially relevant to my role to send me through wilderness plant identification training. 

The Wood Badge topic I always find funny.  About 90% of the Wood Badge comments I read are from non-Wood Badge Scouters complaining about the course and those that have taken it.  I'm well aware that most of us have met a Scouter somewhere that was a jerk and decided to get beaded.  I'm saddened by those people.  In my travels, that vast majority of Wood Badge Scouters I know are dedicated Scouters who took Wood Badge in the hopes of being a better Scouter.

23 minutes ago, shortridge said:

That’s a model I’ve heard of but not seen in action. Do your Scouts all own and bring their own tents?

 

Tents are the biggest-pricetag item, for sure. I’ve been looking at DIY tarp options, but the psychological factor of a first camping trip in February with “just a tarp” may be a lot to overcome. Thanks for the other comments!

Our troop is the same.  Our Scouts all own their own tents.

When Scouts cross over from Webelos, they work as a group to see who has tents.  Generally there are enough tents amongst them that we get 2 or 3 scouts in a tent.  Over the first year or two in the troop most scouts acquire their own and then we have plenty.  Occasionally we have to scare up a tent or two - but not that often.

I like this model as troop tents are expensive and high maintenance.  Scouts also tend to take better care of things they own and tents are fragile.

Unless you come from an economically disadvantaged area, I'd see if you'd get enough families willing to buy their scouts a tent in order to make it work.  I'd stay away from tarps.

Hi @shortridge,

I've not been through this with a new unit, but have spent quite a bit of time watching unit budgeting and how we spend.  For what it's worth, here's my  thoughts.

1) your budget needs to cover awards, meeting supplies, training.  If you need to rent a space, it would need to cover that.

2) ideally your budget would have enough extra money to allow you to cover campsite reservations

3) For the first year or two, I think you could forego equipment expenses.  However, you need to assess if your troop families can provide the equipment.  In our troop, many scouts and families have accumulated equipment and so we could do this.  If your families can not provide equipment, I think you'd want to cover basic camp gear too.

My basic financial model would be:

- dues to cover operating expenses for the year.  Collect these upfront.

- charge up front per event.  Do signups early and ask families to pay in advance.

- I'd plan to run a surplus.  i.e., you want to have $500 in the bank at the end of the year to build up reserves.

- conduct fundraisers of some sort to raise capital for big ticket expenses.  if you find your families cannot supply equipment then set a goal to fundraise to acquire it.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

The BSA has defined Family scouting as serving families. "Bringing the family together to experience Scouting was one of the key reasons the BSA chose to expand its programs to welcome girls." IMHO, many here are concerned  with this change of focus in this new program.  Family camping ,  minimizing patrol method, YP changes  are  by-products.

My $0.02

for quote

https://scoutingwire.org/how-cub-scouting-is-bringing-this-whole-family-together/

 

Okay - uncle.  I'm not looking to criticize or stir the pot.  In threads like this, it just strikes me how negative they get.  That national is trying to ruin the BSA through [choose one: girls, family scouting, YPT].  Yet, when I go look I just don't see it.  I push back because it saddens me for all the Scouts, Scouters, and parents who come to this forum and read post after post about how awful the BSA is.  Guess I just see the future of Scouting with a more positive outlook. 

I guess I'll just leave it alone and go back to avoiding Issues & Politics topics.

8 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/

 

This forum has defined family Scouting as Dad, Mom, and siblings camping with the troop.  Where do they describe that?