Owl62

I see the stars have gone away again.

Please bring them back.

Does anyone know how to make the little wooden name tags (about 3X3") that hang from the uniform shirt pocket buton by a little piece of leather?

I am interested most in the type where a small image such as a Wood Badge critter is placed on the wood, the Scout/Scouters name included somewhere on the tag and then the whole thing is covered with a clear coating.

Thanks.

I just picked up two neat little LED lights.

INOVA X1: A little LED flashlight with one white LED with a magnified lens and operates on one AAA alkaline battery.

INOVA X5: A small LED Flashlight with 5 LEF bulbs and operates on 2 123 lithium batteries. A little bigger than a Mag Solitaire light.

Both are available in brushed stainless steel or black bodies. Waterproof and practically indestructable. Both come with a little belt pouch and a slot in the housing for a lanyard. ABout 5 inches long and 5/8" diameter.

Not inexpensive but not terribly expensive either. The X1 is about $25 and the X5 is about $45.

My opinion is that for all the money I have spent over the years on regular flashlights and batteries; for most applications LEDs are the way to go. They cost a little more up front but more than make up for it in battery cost savings (if you don't lose the light that is).

Nearly all my lights are now LED: Photon Microlights, Energizer LED Headlight, PrincetonTEC Attitude light, Eveready folding Tube LED light. I can carry much more light, in smaller lighter packages, and the light lasts longer on a set of batteries. In most cases, even the batteries are small.

Just to clear up a couple of matters from my original posting on this topic.

I did not say or even imply that I do not support the need or concept of funding or Friends of Scouting. I was addressing FOS presentations at Courts of Honor. I fully understand, maybe more that others, that the program needs funding and that registration and chartering fees do not cover all the costs - not even close. I do not expect Scouting to exist or operate without funds. There are any number of situations where a FOS presentation might be appropriate - some that I have suported and participated in (just not with my own money). My opinion is that Courts of Honor are not among those appropriate situations. That's my opinion. Anyone that disagrees has that right.

I would be unfair and unfortunate of me to lump all non-profits together as misusing funds; and I did not do that.

And since I was talking about my money that I choose to not give to anyone, I will spend it or not spend it on what I deem necessary and I find nothing unfortunate about that whatsoever. I did not create the situations that cause me to feel this way, others did. My money, my decison. Simple as that. Disagree? Fine with me.

And that is all I intend to say about this.

Thanks.

My personal opinion is Friends of Scouting presentations should never be given at Courts of Honor.

Courts of Honor are primarily intended to recognize Scouts and Scouters for their achievements and contributions, and for friendship and fellowship.

Courts of Honor are not conducted to facilitate FOS presentations.

I consider doing a FOS presentation at a Court of Honor as disrectful to those attending the event.

Many Scouters and parents also consider it disrespectful, tacky and some are insulted by it. Some of them won't say anything out loud though.

There is a time and a place for everything and those conducting FOS presentations need to be aware of that.

Matter of fact, I am not so sure that begging (and it is mostly begging) money from people who generally give directly to the program through donation of time, effort, and often times money, is either good or wise. This in my opinion should be the last group of people to be asked. Reminds me of an employer begging money for the company giving program.

Due to questionable application of funds by various charities, I don't give money to anyone any more. I may donate time and effort, but not money.

If any of you disagree, ok with me. But my opinion will not change on this.

Sounds like this is an ideal opportunity for Dad to teach daughter on how to safely, handle, use and care for a pocketknife.

And you might want to teach her the same information just like they do in a good old Totin' Chip session.

When our troop goes to summer camp, the adults do usually discreetly check to see that the Scouts make it to whatever activities they have signed up for. We don't lead then there or follow them there. Rather we just drift in and out of the activity areas.

We also observe the activity areas so that when it comes time to fill out the camp evaluation, we can have actual observed experience to add.

The Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leaders usually are involved in activities as well and seldom have time to check on all the Scouts.

Our belief is that as adult leaders in the troop we have some responsibility to ensure that the Scouts are where they are supposed to be doing what they are supposed to be doing. They are never forced to participate in any summer camp activity - just encouraged. But it is their (or their parent's or other folk's) money that paid for camp and I think we need to help them make wise decisions about getting the most out of that money.

Most of our Scouts are pretty good about being where they are supposed to be doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Other than that, most of us go help run program areas, attend offered training, go on hikes, go for a run, fish, or just relax.

Personally, I like to help at the range or take whatever adult training is offered. And I usually take a hammock and a good book as summer camp is often also my annual vacation and I like to get some relation time in.

What is Camp America?

Most of the Scout Camp campsite latrines I have seen are in only moderately good condition and most are in poor condition. Most do not have electricity, or hot water. Most have usually two toilets, a urinal, and a cold water shower.

I was at a camp two years ago where similar campsite latrines where almost brand new - very good condition.

Camp Pioneer near Mena, AK has new concrete building latrines with several flush toilets in private stalls, several individual showers (hot water!) in private stalls and seveal sinks with hot water. The sinks and toilets where all real toilets and sinks. A nice setup - usually one of these latrine buildings between two campsites.

Many camps have a central latrine with showers and flush toilets - often at the pool that are available for all to use.

I have used outhouses very often in my life so that does not bother me too much - although it does many of the Scouts. But I do like a hot water shower.

I think that campsite latrines need a good deal of improvement and the addition of at least hot water.

I was just wondering how you all feel about it and what your council camp latrines are like.

Many years ago at a Scout summer camp out east, one of our first year campers had a skunk visit his tent after lights out - and got sprayed. About an hour later, presumably the same skunk, came back for more and sprayed the kid again.

Several years ago our Scoutmaster had a heart attack and I had to do much of the CPR on him. The heart attack was fatal. It was a long day, night, and a long ride home.

Our Council is having a first ever summer camp for Venture Scouts this July after all the Boy Scout summer camp sessions are complete. It is called VentureFest and will last 4 days rather than 5 or 6.

We are looking forward to it.

I like the stars. They add a lot to the forums.

Please keep them.

Calling all Owls:

I am seeking Owl pins (hat pins, etc). I have seen some very nice ones, some in pewter. But all I have been able to find is a little ceramic Owl pin and a really nice one laser etched in a little flat wood oval.

Does anyone know of other sources for Owl pins?

Thanks.

KA6BSA,

Hmm. Thanks for your post.

I have seen Friendship Knots given and displayed from the uniform shirt pocket button in several different councils for over 20 years. They are very common in the south and midwest. I have never been to CA so I can't speak for the custom there. Just about every course and activity I have attended for years have involved them. I just got another at a local Scout leader training course, and I just gave out 4 of them to 4 new Boy Scouts in my unit.

I like them because they are a very personal token of friendship - especially if the giver tied it themselves.

Do you have any instructions for the double strand version?

Thanks.

Owl.

I currently recommend LED lights to all new Scouts and Scouters.

While they cost a bit more, the cost is more than made up for in batteries. The average LED runs about 20 times longer on a set of batteries than does a regular flashlight.

I always carry a Photon Micro-Light III on a neck chain and an Eveready LED White/red light headlight now. For my tent I use an Eveready Folding LED light. Not only do these light work well but they take up little space, last a long time on between battery changes, and weigh very little.

Bob,

I am feeling fine - how are you.

A link was provided showing how to tie a single strand Friendship Knot - not a double strand. I am now looking for instructions to tie a double strand Friendship Knot.

And I am still looking for any information on when/where the giving of Friendship Knots may have started.

Thanks.

Here is a pretty good website on insect repellents:

www.insect-repellent.net

I remain unconvinced of the overall safety of DEET. I do use it sparingly on the outside of clothing items such as boots, socks, trouser legs, and caps, IF, the bugs are real bad.

I use permethrin on the outside of tents, under the BSA summer camp tent wooden floor platforms, and on the ground around my tent, being careful to spray downwind away from myself and others. But then I leave the area immediately for at least 1 hour. That seems to keep the area bug free for a week or more.

If I must use something on my skin, I prefer citronella or one of the other plant based insect repellents. I have had a lot of luck with these with no apparent side effects.

I have tried one of those little battery operated electronic insect repellers and it seams to work well but for a very small area - I usually clip it to my cap or to my shirt collar. The only problem with it is the high frequency sound it gives out is irritating.

Speaking of "uniform"... What about Friendship Knots? As long as I have been in Scouting, Friendship kKots have been given by various people for various things. Most wear them hanging from the right shirt pocket button. I find no reference to them in the uniform and insignia guide either. But nearly everyone I know in Scouting either currently wears one or has worn one.

In our council, even the leather thong for the Wood Badge beads has a Friendship Knot tied in it.

Does anyone know when/where the tradition of Friendship Knots started?

Also, does anyone have instructions for tying a double strand Friendship Knot?

Thanks.

Owl62

I would like to know what you all use for insect repellant?

I am trying to use mostly the new "botanical" repellants, citronella, etc. DEET is a neurotoxin and I prefer not to use it. But many of the botanical repellants are not all that effective against ticks, chiggers, etc.

I will sometimes spray my boots and lower trouser legs with DEET, and if the bugs are real bad in camp, I will sometimes use a product like Yard Guard with Permethrin in it prior to moving into camp.

I also tend to burn citronella candles or oil in camp if the mosquitoes are bad. Seems to help some. The mosquitoes are bad here already.

Some tents come with or you can buy custom ground cloths for many tents. I find them expensive. I am addressing only ground cloths for tents with sewn in floors.

A ground cloth for a tent serves several purposes: they helps protect the tent floor from moisture, abrasion, and punctures. They can provide some protection from the cold ground.

I use 6 mil clear plastic sheeting that I buy in rolls. It is relatively inexpensive, readily available, and serves all of the above purposes. I cut it to fit.

I am very picky about my tents. I am very systematic about how I unpack, and set up a tent and about how I take down, clean, dry, pack and store a tent. I carry a small whisk broom to sweep out the tent. I basically colapse the tent on the ground cloth, leaving all zipper about 75% zipped (helps trapped air escaoe. I then vert neatly pull the tent taut so that it is exactly the size of the floor. I make sure that the door is on top. If the tent has a rain fly, I spread it out over the colapsed tent. Then I fold the tent, with all layers, including the ground cloth, to the appropriate size, and then I begin rolling the tent so that the last part rolled is where the door is. I roll the poles and pins inside the tent roll. That way, when I unroll the tent, I know that I am holding the edge where the door is. As I roll, I try to while the roll dry with an old towel as I go. I can set up my tents quickly in daylight or dark, or even in rain or snow. This way the plastic ground cloth acts like a cover for the rolled tent. Then I put the whole thing in the tent bag.

Even if there was no rain whle the tent was being used before packing at camp, when I get home, I unpack the tent and set it up in the sun or inside until it is totally dry. I make any necessary repairs, seal the seams, replace poles or pins or lines at this time. Then I repack the tent again as I describe above.

Another way to protect the floors of your tents is to not wear footgear inside tents, and to not use chairs or cots in tents that have unprotected feet which will eventually puncture tent floors. Use rounded feet or pad the feet in some way. Be careful sliding things like pack frames, walking sticks, tools, etc. on tent floors too.

I have several tents, all with sewn in floors of various types and sizes from 2 man lightweight rents to large family size tents and I treat them all the same. I have several tents, newer and older (some are 20 to 30 years old and while showing some age, are still good reliable tents). Take care of them and they will take care of you.

In addition to the regular Friendship knots, I recently saw some "double" Friendship knots. They had two strands in each run in the knot rather than one.

Does anyone have instructs for these?

Thanks

Other than Gortex Ponchos, which I have seen advertised, but which are very expensive, I think that a "waterproof" coated nylon poncho is good for rain gear. Poncho are versatile. They can be used not only for personal rain gear including wearing them over the person and any packs or other gear, but for other purposed as well.

Ponchos can be used a a ground tarp, tarp for covering gear, firewoood, etc. And can be used as an emergency shelter such as a tent or rain/dining/sun fly. They can be effective wind breaks as well.

The main problem with a poncho is that unless they are very long, and even then do little to protect the lower part of the body.

Military ponchos are probably the most readily available but the newer ones are camouflage and we all know about that in the BSA. I am fortunate to have 2 of the older OD Green military surplus ponchos that are in good shape. I take one on all outings.

Rain suits are very good. For light, intermittent rain they are good.

Gortex rainsuits are expensive. Waterproof coating nylon is good too and probably more cost effective for most people. PVC Rainsuits, while probably more waterproof, are uncomfortable, and can cause the wearer to perspire which in cold weather can cause hypothermia.

The rain jacket is easy to carry and don. It can serve not only a rain jacket, but a wind jacket and just as a light jacket. It can also be used as a "sit-upon" as the Girl Scouts call them - something dry to sit on.

The rain pants are another story. Most are almost impossible to get on with your shoes or boots on. You usually have to remove your foot gear to don the rain pants. But rain pants do protect from the rain, walking through long wet grass, etc. Folded they can be used a a "sit-upon". They provide good wind protection and can be used as an outer layer for extreme cold weather.

Personally, I carry both, a waterproof rain suit and a waterproof poncho, both of nylon. In camp, say at a camporee, I usually just carry a nlylon rain jacket in a day pack.

I also have a rainsuit made of 3M Propore which is a microporus fabric. It is very light weight and of bright yellow. I use it when weight is an issue. It is similar to the "Frog-Toggs but much less expensive.

I'd like to hear about the amount of equipment your unit takes camping.

Our unit tends to go pretty light, but not backpacking light. We do little backpacking. Most of use don't use a backpack but a duffle bag - they are easier to pack into vehicles - we drive to many of our campouts.

Of course we have our personal gear (usually a duffle bag, sleeping bag and pad, and perhaps a camp stool or chair), our tents, perhaps a rain/dining fly, water jugs, and usually one chuckbox. Some also bring cots, hammocks, etc.

Our Venture Crew is about the same except they have no chuck box 9

(they use a large plastic tote for car camping).

I see some Boy Scout units pull into camp with a whole convoy of equipment ladden vehicles - some even have trailers rigged with shelves, racks etc. for gear. Some have camp tables and chairs, and various lashed together items such a a flag pole, campsite gate (some completely fence in their campsite), lanters, stoves, dutch ovens, water jugs, pioneer tools, large unit tents. I know of one unit who had an adult leader who was a plumber who brought and connected an electric water heater to the campsite shower (not a bad idea really - most everyone enjoys a hot shower). They get the same campsite every summer for camp and plumbed the shower so all they had to do was connect the water heater and plug it in! Some of this stuff take hours to unload and set up. And hours to take down, and load.

Now while I will admit that I often take a roll up cot, and often a hammock, I do not bring the whole house with me. I have been trying to scale down the size and weight of my gear and thankfully, technology has allowed me to do a lot of scaling down. I can pretty much get everything for a weekend in one small and one large dufflebag - of course food for meals, and bulk water is extra. (We mostly car camp).

Now I can get everything I need in/on a backpack - done it many times. But if the situation allows I do like to take a few creature comforts - I really enjoy a hammock for example- I even sleep in it some campouts if the weather is mild.

Seems to me that some of the really heavy camping kind of detracts from the idea of the thing.

Your thoughts...

Thanks.

Welcome,

In the BSA, there is an official policy against camouflage clothing. And BSA members are not permitted to wear imitation or actual military uniforms. Military uniforms in the USA are protected by law - only authorized members of the military are authorize to wear them.

As has been mentioned, the OA is a BSA organization - and rules can be changed.

I can't explain why the issue of the OA did not seem to arise in the old Explorer program (or in the new for that matter) - except to say that most Explorer posts are career/vocational oriented - not outdoors or high adventure.

Many Venturing Crews are high adventure crews.

As I said in my first posting, I think that there should be a "rank" requirement - the Bronze Award and I even specified that I think it should be the Outdoor Bronze.

If you look at the Outdoor Bronze Award requirements, they are similar to the requirements needed to earn the Boy Scout First Class award. Note that I said similar, not exactly the same. In most cases Venture Scouts must do far more to achieve the Bronze Award requirements that Boy Scouts do to earn their ranks up through First Class.

Many Venture Scouts are indeed "honor campers". I think this needs strong consideration.

As I recall, the very first members of the OA were adults, not youth. Even today, adult Scouters meeting requirements can be inducted into the OA. Although today it is primarily a youth led organization - and I think it should be. And I think Venture Scouts would be a weclome and valued addition to the OA. There was a time when female Scouters were rare - today, in most Councils they are many. I received my Wood Badge regalia from a female Scouter, who is also by coincidence a fellow Owl. Didn't bother me in the least, in fact, I appreciated it.

Long standing traditions and rules change slow, hard, and sometimes never. The fact that Venturing itself was created, and exists, indicates change, probably needed change within the OA.

Other than the existing OA rules, and perhaps tradition, I can find no justification to exclude Venture Scouts from the OA, particularly if they have earned the Outdoor Bronze Award and meet other requirements.

I think it will take a while, but I think that eventually, Venture Scouts will be welcomed into the OA.

Tradition is great, but I think we should build upon it, not use it as a restrictive tool. We need to find ways to make the BSA grow.

I have a feeling there will be many more responses to this topic....