Owl62

FOG:

As far a how far a LED light beam can go. Depends on the light. There are some larger LEDs and some actually have a magnifier lens that helps through the beam farther.

I still carry a 3 D cell mag light in my vehicle - but have converted all the lights I carry camping to LED and advise other Scouts and Scouters to do the same.

I carry a Photon Microlight everwhere with me. They are great little lights.

I am just wondering how your units handled banned/discouraged items at camp? (Other than illegal items or items specifically banned by the BSA).

Our unit basically does not care what a Scout brings to camp as long as it is not banned by the camp or BSA and as long as it does not interfere with camp or unit activities at camp. Most Scouts bring the absolute mininum anyway. We figure that as long as the items brought by Scouts are not illegal, banned, interfere with unit operations, or violate the Scout Oath or Law or BSA policy, it is their business what they bring on campouts - not ours. We are after all trying to encourage them to be responsible and to plan and think a head.

Some units ban or restrict the following items:

Drinks other that water (I suppose this is meant to ban soda pop) Camp chairs or stools (one troop expects them to be made in camp as camp gadgets)

Electronic items of all sorts (pagers, cell phones, radios, electronic games, TVs, etc)

Book or magazines other than BSA published

Rain suits (they want the Scouts to use ponchos)

Games of any type including playing cards

"Toys"

Lighters

Matches

Knives

"Large" flashlights - not sure what that means.

Drugs or medications of ANY kind including over the counter items(prescribed drugs are handled by unit leaders)

Candy, snacks, gum

And many other items.

Some units actually have an "inspection" of what Scouts take to camp. I wouldn't want anyone going though my pack or dufflebag!

I know of one unit where all of the members have to have long sleeved Scout uniform shirts, campaign hat, and all of them have the same poncho, flashlight, pocketknife, boots,unit t-shirt, etc. They are generally not permitted to wear the "activity" uniform.

Our unit places a lot of trust in the Scouts. We inform them through the SPL of what the cannot legally take or items that are banned by the BSA or camp. We advise them what they should bring camping and then what is optional. We have never had any problems with cell phones, pagers, radios, etc. We did have a problem for a while with electronic games where a few Scouts did nothing but play the games. The other Scouts got on them for not helping and participating in the unit camp activities. Solved itself.

Most of our Scouts bring as little a possible. I guess they just don't want to carry it. It just has never been too much of an issue.

Among the adults we usually always have at least one cell phone - more for emergencies than anything. Cell phone users are pretty good about getting away from the group when then need to make a call. I always carry a small radio (AM/FM/NOAC) the thing is about 2X3X1" - mostly for weather reports. One adult in another unit has a big problem with my radio - he saw me listening to it while a thunderstorm was bearing down on us. I mark it up as a safety item and leave it at that.

I have seen and participated in Scout Ashes (we call it Scout Spirit Ashes) a few times.

We are in the process of rebuilding a troop that almost folded. We had our first family campout a while back and had a Scout Spirit Ashes ceremony. It was planned so a few of us had ashes to put in the fire.

We plan to do this at all future campfires.

A great tradition.

Regarding the Interpreter Strip:

We have found general requirements for qualifying for the Interpreter Strip.

Question is does there have to be a "qualified counselor" to evaluate the qualification of the person trying to get the Interpreter Strip? Are there specifica BSA requirements or a form to document this?

Thanks.

I think the real issue with Scout camp latrines is the design and care of them, and then there is is the cost. Even primitive latrines cost money to build and maintain.

Most primitive Scout camp latrines that I have seen are poorly designed, build and maintained. Many of them have a concrete holding tank that needs to be pumped out regularly - most are not. Many of the concrete foundations and tanks were poorly built and are damaged by settling and the effects of weather. The above ground stuctures are mostly even worse. Many are not constructed of treated lumber and are badly rotted. Waste water from the sinks and shower often just drains out on the ground causing a muddy mess. The comode holes are often set back too far on the latrine box even for adults - some have toilet seats - some do not. Many have lids that are springloaded so that they remain closed to help keep down insects and prevent animals from falling in the pit. Problem with that is that the user has an unsanitary toilet seat lid resting on their backs.

I have no idea how some of these facilities pass health department inspections.

Camp Rand in NM had relatively good latrines in campsites. Well designed with concrete pits that were well maintained. Treated lumber and commodes that were metal tubes with a real toilet seat and lid on top. The water from the sink and showers did drain out onto the ground but it is so dry there, the water evaporated quickly.

I think health and safety should be the guide for Scout campsite latrines. The should be well designed, comply with local building codes, and must be well maintained.

We just came back from summer camp. The only hot water showers available for the Scouts were at the pool. Problem was, they were kept locked when the pool was not open - which was most of the time when Scouts could take a shower. Something wrong with that picture. They said it was to prevent Scouts from abusing the facility. Easy solution to that is to have a key available for adult leaders to sign out so that they can take their unit to the showers and then be responsible for them. We suggested that but the staff said they had no one to check the showers afterward. The staff had hot showers.

As a youth, I wanted to be a soldier; and that is what I did. Had a wonderful and reqarding career in the military. While in the service, prepared for a career in a management specialty. On retirement, that is what I went into and still am doing.

And of course I wanted to remain in Scouting in some capacity. I have been an adult Scouter for over 30 years serving in many different positions.

And I hope I never grow up - I am having too much fun in life.

I looked in the G2SS and the section on prescriptions says nothing that it applies to only unit campouts, activities, etc. It appears to be BSA policy regardless of where it takes place. But it does say very clearly that the taking of prescription medication is the responsibility of the individual taking the medication and/or that individual's parent or guardian.

Also, prescription medication containers that I have seen are clearly labelled something to the effect: Federal law prohibits transfer of this drug to any person other than the patient for whom it is prescribed.

I am sure that there are some legal exceptions to that but I would suppose that they would include legal guardians, law enforcement, and persons properly licensed to prescribe/dispense prescription medications.

I also checked both federal and state law and found basically the same thing - possession of prescription drugs by other than the person to whom they are prescribed is illegal. While I am sure there are some legal exceptions to that, I found no exceptions for the BSA, camps, etc. What happens if the camp staff person that has the medication, and dispenses the wrong medication to a camper???

I'm not an attorney but I see potential problems with a camp collecting prescription medications. I've only been to one camp that had a licensed physician actually on staff and on site. Usually there is an EMT or Paramedic.

I need to do some more checking into this.

We had Venture Scouts participate in part of the instruciton during my Wood Badge course too. In fact most of them were from my crew.

It added greatly to the course. We all learned something. In fact I think that the program could benefit from using older Boy Scouts in a similar manner.

Some in our course had never seen Venture Scouts before. And the Venture Scouts saw for themselves, their adult leaders being trained.

Sometimes Scouters learn as much if not more from Scouts that from other Scouters....

What are your favorite/most effective insect repellent or other means of repelling insects?

Preventing insect bites is important just from a disease prevention point of view. And insects can make a camping experience unpleasant.

Personally I avoid using DEET unless I have to. Despite what is said, DEET is a neuro toxin. The containers are covered with all kinds of precautions yet many use it without question. Those precautions would not be there for no reason.

I never use DEET on my skin. Only on clothing items (hat, boots, legs of shorts or pants, and once in a while on the shoulder area of a shirt of jacket. I will apply it to the outside of my tent near the door. DEET insect repellents come in many concentrations. I try to use the lowest concentration possible that works. Sprying it along the bottom of the door of a tent helps keep crawling insection out of a tent.

Main thing is to read the instructions and follow them.

In fact I avoid using any insect repellent on my skin if possible.

For skin, I prefer plant based products such as citronella, cactus extract, etc.

Johnson, the makers of "Off" has one called "OFF! Botanicals" that seems to work well. There is one called "CACTUS JUICE" that works pretty good. And most of the citronella (Repel is the brand that comes to mind) repellents work ok for mosquitoes and gnats (I have not found it effective for chiggers or ticks). I once heard that "Skin So Soft" from Avon was effective against mosquitoes. I found that it actually attracted moquitoes and other insects.

I prefer to use non-pressurized pump type spray bottles of insect repellent rather than the pressured types as many of those contain propellants that are harmful to the environment and the spray is often hard to control and it at least appears that a lot of the repellent is wasted because of over spray. Lotions are okay but then you get the stuff on your hands. Probably the little sticks of insect repellents are better than the lotions because you can avoint getting the repellent on your hands.

Using citronella candles or oil lamps is also effective against mosquitoes and gnats. But don't breat the smoke or funmes from burning citronells. The other bad thing about this is that the bugs are only repelled in a very small area. Can also be a fire hazard.

If the mosquitoes, ticks, or chiggers are REAL bad in an area, we sometimes will use an outdoor fogger such as Yard Guard prior to occupying the campsite. These are INSECTICIDES rather than repellents - meaning they kill insects rather than repell them.(Don't use these types of products around bodies of water or where people will inhale the mist). Spray it in an area and back out leaving the mist to settle for a while before occupying it. Many of those foggers contain Permethrin which is a good insecticide that will last up to two weeks. Given the principles of leave no trace and just the general reluctance to use chemicals, we avoid this but sometimes health and safety by preventing insect bites takes priority.

The most common insect problems in our area are mosquitoes, ticks, and chiggers. We try to check out a site before actually setting up and it there is evidence of any insect infestation we try to take precautions prior to setting up camp - including using a fogger if needed. I have been in camps where you could sit and watch the ticks crawling all over the low lying brush!

I have also tried, with some success the little high frequnecy sound producing insect repellers. But their range is small. I usually clip one to my cap or packstrap. They seem to help if the mosquitoes are real bad.

Sometimes just staying as clean and odor free as possible is a good method of repelling insections. Be careful of fragrances in soaps, shampoos and lotions those - they can actually attract insects. Try to use unsented products. And of course keep food and drink covered and keep soiled clothing in a bag or other container. Close latrine commode lids, and keep trash containers closed.

Mosquito netting is also effective for sleeping. Most summer camp tents are open, so I put up a mosquito net over my cot.

Most of us dislike the smoke from a camp or cooking fire, but it can be a good insect repellent. We have actual started and kept a good smokey campfire going in areas where mosquitoes are a problem.

Our unit has a standard list of things to take to summer camp that is an expanded list from that in the Boy Scout Handbook. The first and last item is Scout Spirit.

We encourage everyone to take their gear in a footlocker, plastic tote or some other similar container. Try to get one that locks - might sound needless - but... These containers seem to work better.

We do spot check before we leave - mostly a verbal check - we run down the list and ask all if they have what it needed. Most do.

We don't put many restictions on what can't be brought except of illegal items or those that violate the Scout Oath or Law. Time and experience is the best teacher to Scouts of what to bring or not bring other than the basics.

Summer camp is usually my one and only vacation for the year as well. So I tend to take a few "extras" such as a hammock, pillow, and some other things. I am fairly organized about it and my foot locker pretty much has a standard packing list.

We warn all about keeping snacks, etc in tents due to potential critter raids of those tents. I have seen it happen but it is rare.

The camp we are going to this year, does not have cots - so we have to bring our own. Most of use have one - but I am eager to see what some bring as a cot. A week of uncomfortable sleeping is a good teacher.

We always have a meeting with all Scouts who are going to camp and their parents and provide the parents with a copy of the packing list provided to their Scouts. This helps and some of the parents are Scouters so that helps too. We have two Scouters for whom this will be their first summer camp - they are wisely asking lots of questions of the more experienced Scouters.

The one thing that is always mandatory is a water bottle or canteen that can be carried around. The most common complaint I have experienced from Scouts at summer camp is not feeling well - and upon checking, they are not hydrating adequately. We make them take their water bottles with them everywhere. Water as a drink is not popular with most boys of Scout age but we encourage drinking lots of it.

Hygiene items: Our Scouters and older more experienced Scouts do monitor the Scouts' hygiene. They are encouraged to wash upon waking, before handling food or eating, after using the latrine, and before turning in, etc. We encourage a daily shower. Again, discomfort is a great teacher. When they discover that they feel better after a shower, they just go take one. We have had to tell a few Scouts to go take a shower but that is rare. One of the biggest problems with camp showers is that many, especially those in the campsites have no hot water. Now I don't much enjoy a cold shower either. Does nothing for me other than make me cold and wet - even if it does get some of the dirt off. Fortunately most camp pools have hot water showers, and some campsites to. I enjoy at least one hot shower a day at camp - sometimes several! We encourage Scouts to change into clean socks, underwear, and shirt daily. Again, discomfort is a good teacher. They quickly discover that being clean makes for a more pleasant camp experience - for themselves and those around them! And when they see the Scouers and older Scouts wash and brush their teeth, take showers and wearing clean clothes, they are likely to do the same.

As a unit, we always take extra insect replellent, sun screen, a spare poncho and blanket, etc. Just in case. But most of our Scouts are pretty good about bringing what is needed.

I only remember forgetting one thing for summer camp one year: My own hearing protection for the firing ranges. I had to use those little yellow foam plugs which I do not like. I prefer my own and they are now part of my standard gear on all camping trips. You never know when you might need them.(We have one camp that is completely surrounded by major roads and the traffic noise is terrible - all night long! - Ear plugs help)

Handwashing. Another opportunity to manage a process.

A Scout is CLEAN. It's right there in the Scout Law.

So it should be taught, coached, encouraged, etc. And Scout leaders and Scouters should monitor it an ensure it happens. Handwashing is a recognized first line defense against the spread of disease whether at camp, traveling, home, school, or work.

Just because we are at camp is not an excuse (under most circomstances) to be dirty. Under most situation, hand washing is simple and easy.

Most camps have running water. We should encourage its use.

All Scouts, Scouters, and units should take soap to camp. All of our Scouts are required to have a little personal hygiene kit including soap, toothbrush and toothpaste as a minimum. Also we always have some liquid hand soap with us.

An adult always monitors food preparation to ensure those preparing and handling food (both Scouts and Scouters) practice good basic hand hygiene.

We encourage all to wash upon waking, before handing, preparing or eating food, and after using the latrine, and before turning in.

One of those little solar camp shower bags makes a great water source for handwashing. We use one and keep a bottle of liquid hand soap with it. It is lightweight, can be used most anywhere and is inexpensive.

I also carry and enourage others to carry a little bottle of hand sanitizer for thos cases where water for handwashing in not readily available. The alcohol based types also make a good emergency fire starter.

In addition to privacy issues (during camp check-in, etc), I am concerned with storage and access of BSA health records.

Most camps and Scouting activities keep our BSA health forms. We are not told why, or how or where they are stored or who has access to them or who is the legal custodian of those records, or what the disposition of those records will be.

While it is true that HIPPA does not necessarily apply, there are other state and federal laws relating to medical records or confidentially that most certainly do. I think that under certain conditions, BSA camps, etc, could be considered a healthcare provider.

There is a lot of personal health information on those forms that should be accessed and released only to authorized persons with a specific need to know. I think that upon surrendering our health information we should be provided with a BSA statement or policy on those records with complete information as to where they are stored, who has access to them and what the disposition will be.

Does anyone know of any actual BSA policy on handling, storage, access and disposition of BSA health records?

Has anyone ever heard of a BSA camp confiscating all medications upon check-in? And to be told that it was BSA policy?

The G2SS clearly states that the taking of prescription medication is the responsibilith of the indidual or in the case of a minior Scout the parent or guardian. Scout leaders are neither required or encouraged to accept responsibility for Scout medications.

Also, the transfer of presecription medications is a violation of law - all prescription medication containers I have ever seen even have that printed on the label.

I look at cell phones like other items. If they are not illegal, or detract from the Scouting environment, then my opinion is that we should let them be.

Lots of units and camps say, no electonic devices, magazine, books, etc. How realistic is this? Not very I say.

I think it is not necessarily the right thing to tell a Scout or Scouter what to NOT bring (excepting items that are illegal or detract from or violate the Scout Oath or Law or health and safety). We do caution Scouts and their parents that we and the BSA are not responsible for lost or damaged items - that takes care of them bringing most items like cell phones, radios, electronic games. etc.

We don't search Scout backpacks and other bags. We give them the general guidelines and expect them to do what it right. If there is a problem, we address it. We generally have no problems.

And we try to keep everyone busy with Scout activities which prevents most downtime and resulting use of other items.

Times are a changing - maybe for the better, maybe not. Cell phones can be a good device to enhance the safety of a Scout outing. Just as there are those outside of Scouting who disrespect others by using cell phones constantly or in inappropriate situations, there are those in Scouting that will do the Same. But there are lots of people that use them appropriately. If cell phone use becomes a problem, then we just discuss it with the Scout or Scouter (or outside of Scouting, with the person involved) and the problem usually goes away.

Like anything else, cell phone possession/use needs to be managed not banned. It seems there is and has been a move to ban, or make illegal or make against policy anything that some people don't like. Seems like everytime something happens that someone else doesn't like or agree with there is a move to ban it. I don't think that is the best way to do things.

Perhaps it is better to help encourage proper use of cell phones (and other items) rather that to just ban them.

Regarding Uniforms for those who can't afford them:

I do believe that most Scouts (and even Scouters) could find ways to earn the money to purchase a uniform.

Scout units could establish uniform banks to provide uniforms for those Scouts or any Scout for that matter. Unifoms are expensive. However, Scouts receiving uniforms in this manner, should be encouraged to give back to the uniform bank when possible.

Youth of Scout ages grow constantly, and given the cost of uniforms, there can be a hardship. Buying a size larger helps but is not always the answer.

I also believe that the high cost of uniforms contributes to the inability or reluctance of Scouts to get uniforms.

And again, I think it is wrong to compare buying a uniform to the cost of CDs, cigarettes, fast food, etc. and that by giving up those things even temporarily can result in having money to buy a uniform. I just think this approach is not the best.

A Scout's or Scouter's uniform his his or her uniform, and part of the pride in that uniform should be earning the money to buy it.

Regarding the cost of uniforms:

I think that it is just plain common sense, when comparing Scout uniforms to other similar clothing, that the uniforms are priced above similar clothing. I for one would like to know why, but I think I know.

If uniforms were priced similarly to similar clothing, cost would not be such an issue.

The cost of Venturing uniform pants, shorts, socks and other components are MUCH higher than those for other Scouting programs. Why? A pair of Venturing socks is $16.30!

I think that somebody or some company is making a lot of money off Scouting uniforms.

In my opinion, the cost of Scout uniforms does affect recruiting and retention in Scouting.

And I thinl that those involved in Scouting need to make these things known.

Regarding the quality of Scout uniforms:

Again, I think it is very apparent, when compared to similar clothing, that at least sometimes, Scout uniform parts are not of the best quality. It is true that one can buy similar items, for much lower prices, that are of greater quality.

The uniforms of today, are in my opinion, of much better quaility than the all olive colored uniforms of the early 70s.

The current uniform shirts, are in my opinion, of better quality than the trousers and shorts. However, I recently went to the Scout Shop to buy a new shirt. They had 4 of my size. Of those 4, three of them had the left shirt pocket sewn on at least 1/2" higher than the right. How could this have passed inspection? Was there an inspection at the manufacturing facility? I mentioned this to the clerk in the shop who just shrugged and put the shirts back on the rack. To me they should have been sent back to the manufacturer with a written complaint and a demand for replacement with new shirts. I have no doubt that some Scout or Scouter will buy those shirts.

Scout trousers do not hold up well at all. The stitching comes loose in a very short time. The back pockets and seat area wear through very quickly. If it were not for the elastic in parts of the waist band (which I think make the pants and shorts fit and feel better) the pants would not fit well at all. The pockets, both side slit pockets and especially the little patch pockets are far too small. those little patch pockets are viturally useless. I for one would like to see the cargo pockets on the sides of the legs come back.

I would also like to see combination pants and shorts - with zippers on the legs so that one garment could serve both purposes. I would rather pay a bit more for combination pants/shorts, than to have to buy two garments.

Regarding a complete and proper uniform:

I agree. However, since uniforming is a method of Scouting, and not the entire program, I think that uniforming should be tempered and that common sense should apply.

I am dismayed by those who run up to others in incomplete or improper uniforms and tell them about it, often loudly and tactlessly. Is it not better to quietly approach someone and advise them?

While the Insignia Guide is fairly good at setting standards, there are lots of things left unanswered. Some topics simply are not addressed.

Scouters and older Scouts should strive to set the example by wearing as complete and proper of a uniform as possible. One of the benefits of Scouting is that members can often wear insignia of their associate and achievements. Lots of people both young and old like this and appreciate it. Our unit has a lot of new Scouts and they like all the insignia. They are almost always in complete uniform.

Again, a Scout's or Scouter's uniform is theirs and they should be encouraged to earn the money to buy it (A Scout pays his own way), and then have the pride, self respect and respect for the organization, to wear it as much as possible, properly and completely.

Justmy opinion.

Bob,

I looked at the area you mentioned and found nothing about the manufacture of BSA uniforms. I may have missed something but I did not see any of the information I originally inquired about.

Thanks.

Does anyone know who the contract(s) are that manufacture BSA uniforms?

I think the insignia are made by a variety of companies but I have heard that the actual uniforms are made by one company.

All good points here.

Well put Bob.

I have to admit that I have one BSA insignia that I wear on my uniform, that I cannot find anywhere in the Insignia guide that it is either authorized or not authorized. But it or some like it are still sold in nearly every Scout shop right along with other Scout insignia. But I wear it. And with pride. It is the only insignia that as an adult, I actually had to earn - and in front of many others. It took me one complete weekend to earn it. I wear it all the time and have never once had anyone tell me it was wrong. I have had some ask about it. They used to be very common 20 or 30 years ago. Authorized back then. Somewhere along the line, they just kind of disapeared out of the Insignia Guide. I am not sure why.

Now there will be those of you who will say that it is not uniform, not authorized, etc. But it is an official BSA insignia. And as far as I am concerned that is enough. There is just no guidance on where or how to wear it. Orignially they were worn on the shirt pocket flap. Some now say that at best it is a temporary insignia and must be worn on the right pocket. Problem is, it is not a temporary insignia. And it can still be earned. So I wear it on my left shirt pocket flap - since the OA seems to have a monopoly on the right shirt pocket flap.

When I see violations of the uniform insignia guide, I just quietly advise the person of the fact and move on - assuming they are in the program. What about people who are not registered that wear Scout uniform parts? I see that occasionally. It appears to be a growing fad. It is wrong, but what to do.

Then there are the unofficial interpreter strips (Southern Drawl, Texan, Redneck, Hillbilly, Jive, HTML, etc.). I see these from time to time.

Patrol patches worn by adults - yet we put adults into patrols in adult training. Most units I have ever been in, the adults unofficially formed a patrol of their own, with a flag, and patrol patch. (Some of the names were: Adult Patrol, Experienced Patrol, Rocking Chair Patrol, Old Fogey Patrol, etc.) Not uniform. Nope. But the Scouts saw us look and act like a patrol and learned.

i am not in anyway suggesting that we should deliberately circumvent rules or policies or wear in appropriate or improper uniforms.

This whole issue is of interest to me.

Personally, I think it is not right for us to judge anyone who says that they cannot afford a Scout uniform for themselves or their Scouts. And to me, it should not matter. The program as a whole is what matters.

I also think that it is not a good idea to say that for the cost of this or that, a Scout uniform could be had. Scouts and their families should not have to give up anything else of any value to them because others of us think that that is a way to afford a uniform.

We must remember that all of us have lives outside of Scouting. At least I do. Scouting is part of my life, not all of it.

Several things affect Scout uniforms.

Uniforming is a method of Scouting - not a requirement. The important thing is to deliver the program - uniform or not.

Boys of Scout age outgrow uniforms. I always suggest buying uniforms a bit large.

And my opinion is that most uniform components, especially the official shirt, pants, and shorts are not of the best quality, certainly not worth the amounts charged for them. And many are not even well constructed. I recently had to purchase a new shirt. They had four left in my size, and three of those four had one pocket sewn on the shirt front higher than the other. You would think that for $31.48 cents each, they could at least get the pockets on straight. The clerk at the Scout shop just shrugged. The pants do not wear well and often are ill fitting. I do have to say though that the current uniform is a vast improvement over the all olive green polyester uniform of the early 70s both in quality and fit.

My opinion is that something really needs to be done about the cost and quality of BSA uniforms. The BSA catalog lists Scout shirts beginning at $29.15 (Youth) and $34.50 (adults). The pants start at $36.85 (youth) and $45.25 (adults). The shorts start at $31.35 (youth) and $39.45 (adult. The socks are about reasonable I think. Shirts for Venturing are in the same price range. But the grey pants start at $65.65 and the shorts at $47.35! The venturing web belt and buckle are $8.45! The Venturing socks are $13.50 a pair! My opinion is that no way are these uniforms worth the cost we are being charged for them. You can purchase similar clothing of higher quality at discount stores often for much less. I bought two pair of cotton canvas duck shorts very similar to Venturing shorts for $28 at a rather high end clothing store. I can buy at least two pairs of very high quality running socks for the price of one pair of Venturing socks. (That little Venturing logo must be VERY expensive. I think their uniform contract(s) need to be renegotiated.

I wish that they would come out with a combination pants and shorts - the kind where you can zip off the pant legs to become shorts. I see no reason why this cannot be done. This way members would have both trouser and short in one article of clothing and nearly everyone I have asked says they would like this and would be willing to pay for them as long as the cost is reasonable. This kind of combination pants and shorts has been discussed elsewhere on the forum.

Scout shops are often out of stock on items. "We can special order it for you." Well, so can all of us - we can all order direct from the catalog.

As for money to buy Scout uniforms: I am of the belief that the Scouts should earn the money for their uniforms - or at least part of the money. "A Scout pays his way". It is HIS uniform. This may be an old fashioned way of thinking but it is a fact. They have to learn to pay their way.

There are lots of ways to do this. Unit fundraisers. The Scout can do little jobs on his own - chores, mowing yards, etc.

Also, many people will donate used uniform parts to units. We have at least partially outfitted several new Scouts this way. A wonderful way to keep the uniform parts in service and help other Scouts.

And as many have said, lead by example. Adult leaders should strive to support the program and one way to do that is to wear as complete and correct of a uniform as possible. If the registered adults don't wear a uniform, the Scouts are likely not to as well. If the Scouts see the adults in uniform, they will be interested in uniforming as well. The same for Scout leaders.

When boys join our unit, we tell them the first thing their Scout needs is a Handbook. Then we discuss the uniform. We tell them where to go to buy it and are honest about the cost. We maintain a small uniform bank and will give out uniform components that we have that will fit or are appropriate. Many of the new Scouts actually like the "experienced uniforms" Our unit has always been good about donating unused uniforms. We ask that the Scouts get at least a uniform shirt. The unit provides most of the insignia. We advise them about the pants, socks, etc. Most over time will get the complete uniform. We recommend that their Scouts participate in all unit fund raising activies and suggest that they earn money on their own doing chores at home or mowing lawns, etc. Most of the Scouts that I know actually want to at least help pay for their uniforms. They know they are expensive and it is their program. Usually by the time our Scouts are 2nd or 1st Class they have both uniform shirt and pants or shorts.

This is strange coming from someone who has served in an organization that required strict compliance to uniform regulations. But Scouting is not that organization it is Scouting. We don't get too excited in our unit about a Scout with no uniform or who wears a uniform shirt with jeans. But we do encourge them to wear what uniform parts they have correctly and be neat and clean. Since they get their position and rank insignia given to them, we do encourage them to sew those on and wear them. I do agree that mixing uniform shirts with no uniform pants and shorts is not "uniform" but there is the rest of the program. Strange that I have never read on the forums here of Scouts and Scouters wearing jackets and coats that are not "uniform" or shoes for that matter. My Wood Badge Course was told to not wear "white sneakers" No explanation was given. I guess black or brown or red or pink or purple sneakers were ok? Won't it be interesting if the BSA comes out with official BSA shoes and boots and requires members wear them? I find no reference to shoes or boots (or socks for that matter) in the uniform and insignia guide. Another topic for another day.

Personally, I wear as complete and correct of a uniform as I can. Right down to the socks. And neat and clean. I do it because I am proud of the BSA and what it does for the youth of this country and I just generally have some personal pride in my appearance. Several of the adults in our unit do the same. The Scouts see it and it has worked wonders. We have a lot of new Scouts and they WANT to wear a uniform. Most of them have a uniform shirt by the second meeting they attend. They want all the inisignia and such. And for the most part they at least help earn part of the money to purchase one.

Have a great day.

It looks like the forum management created an equipment forum as a subforum of Camping and High Adventure.

Thanks.

Even though carrying this large Flag is a technical violation of the US Flag Code, I think the intent is good and the manner of display is respectful.

I have no problem carrying or displaying such a large Flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully with intend to honor the Flag and what it stands for.

On 11 September 2001, there was a Soldier in NYC who was shown wrapped in a Flag - technically inappropriate, but it brought tears to my eyes for another reason. Some of you will underand why. Personally, I was proud of that young Soldier.

There are examples of of actions that show far more disrespect for our Flag:

Displaying, worn, torn, tattered, faded Flags.

Making Flags into articles of clothing or baggage.

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag passes by such as in a parade (stand, remove hat, etc.).

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag is raised, lowered,passes by, or when the National Anthem is played.

Just discarding an unserviceable Flag in the trash.

Deliberately desecrating the Flag.

Homeowner associations declaring display of the Flag as a violation of the association agreement.

And it appears that many in this country think that the last words of the National Anthem are "Play Ball" or "Start Your Engines".

I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial.

I was once at a Flag retirement ceremony at a Scout activity. When the Flag was placed in the fire, we were asked by the program director to turn our backs and walk away from the fire in a show of respect. Respect our Flag by turning our backs and walking away! I was the only person that remained, at attention, watching until every part of that Flag was consumed by the fire. I was not about to turn my back on that Flag!

Just please respect our Flag.

I once observed an elderly man in a wheelchair at a parade, struggle to his feet, stand at attention with his hand over his heart as a Color Guard carried the Flag past, while nearly everyone around him just sat on the curb. I have no idea who he was but it was obvious from his actions and bearing that he once served in the military. And he showed respect.

I have heard a suggestion that unserviceable Flags be buried with Veterans. I think that is a very good idea - and acceptable. What more appropriate honor for a Veteran to rest forever with a Flag that will be guarded by the Veteran for eternity by a Veteran who served under the Flag.

Our country it the only one that I have been in or know of where the display of the Flag is widespread and common - not just from government facilities, but from our homes, our vehicles, and our persons. People from other countries usually do not understand this passion for our flag. I do.

The Flag is a very personal symbol for me. I was born under it, serve under it, and I will respect it and safeguard it.

Why must we argue over things like this? - the well intended display of our Flag.

The Flag stands for all this country was, is, and will be. It is a symbol of sacrific, honor, unity. It is ours. Just please respect the Flag for what it stands for.

Even though carrying this large Flag is a technical violation of the US Flag Code, I think the intent is good and the manner of display is respectful.

I have no problem carrying or displaying such a large Flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully with intend to honor the Flag and what it stands for.

On 11 September 2001, there was a Soldier in NYC who was shown wrapped in a Flag - technically inappropriate, but it brought tears to my eyes for another reason. Some of you will underand why. Personally, I was proud of that young Soldier.

There are examples of of actions that show far more disrespect for our Flag:

Displaying, worn, torn, tattered, faded Flags.

Making Flags into articles of clothing or baggage.

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag passes by such as in a parade (stand, remove hat, etc.).

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag is raised, lowered,passes by, or when the National Anthem is played.

Just discarding an unserviceable Flag in the trash.

Deliberately desecrating the Flag.

Homeowner associations declaring display of the Flag as a violation of the association agreement.

And it appears that many in this country think that the last words of the National Anthem are "Play Ball" or "Start Your Engines".

I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial.

I was once at a Flag retirement ceremony at a Scout activity. When the Flag was placed in the fire, we were asked by the program director to turn our backs and walk away from the fire in a show of respect. Respect our Flag by turning our backs and walking away! I was the only person that remained, at attention, watching until every part of that Flag was consumed by the fire. I was not about to turn my back on that Flag!

Just please respect our Flag.

I once observed an elderly man in a wheelchair at a parade, struggle to his feet, stand at attention with his hand over his heart as a Color Guard carried the Flag past, while nearly everyone around him just sat on the curb. I have no idea who he was but it was obvious from his actions and bearing that he once served in the military. And he showed respect.

I have heard a suggestion that unserviceable Flags be buried with Veterans. I think that is a very good idea - and acceptable. What more appropriate honor for a Veteran to rest forever with a Flag that will be guarded by the Veteran for eternity by a Veteran who served under the Flag.

Our country it the only one that I have been in or know of where the display of the Flag is widespread and common - not just from government facilities, but from our homes, our vehicles, and our persons. People from other countries usually do not understand this passion for our flag. I do.

The Flag is a very personal symbol for me. I was born under it, serve under it, and I will respect it and safeguard it.

Why must we argue over things like this? - the well intended display of our Flag.

The Flag stands for all this country was, is, and will be. It is a symbol of sacrific, honor, unity. It is ours. Just please respect the Flag for what it stands for.

Even though carrying this large Flag is a technical violation of the US Flag Code, I think the intent is good and the manner of display is respectful.

I have no problem carrying or displaying such a large Flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully with intend to honor the Flag and what it stands for.

On 11 September 2001, there was a Soldier in NYC who was shown wrapped in a Flag - technically inappropriate, but it brought tears to my eyes for another reason. Some of you will underand why. Personally, I was proud of that young Soldier.

There are examples of of actions that show far more disrespect for our Flag:

Displaying, worn, torn, tattered, faded Flags.

Making Flags into articles of clothing or baggage.

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag passes by such as in a parade (stand, remove hat, etc.).

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag is raised, lowered,passes by, or when the National Anthem is played.

Just discarding an unserviceable Flag in the trash.

Deliberately desecrating the Flag.

Homeowner associations declaring display of the Flag as a violation of the association agreement.

And it appears that many in this country think that the last words of the National Anthem are "Play Ball" or "Start Your Engines".

I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial.

I was once at a Flag retirement ceremony at a Scout activity. When the Flag was placed in the fire, we were asked by the program director to turn our backs and walk away from the fire in a show of respect. Respect our Flag by turning our backs and walking away! I was the only person that remained, at attention, watching until every part of that Flag was consumed by the fire. I was not about to turn my back on that Flag!

Just please respect our Flag.

I once observed an elderly man in a wheelchair at a parade, struggle to his feet, stand at attention with his hand over his heart as a Color Guard carried the Flag past, while nearly everyone around him just sat on the curb. I have no idea who he was but it was obvious from his actions and bearing that he once served in the military. And he showed respect.

I have heard a suggestion that unserviceable Flags be buried with Veterans. I think that is a very good idea - and acceptable. What more appropriate honor for a Veteran to rest forever with a Flag that will be guarded by the Veteran for eternity by a Veteran who served under the Flag.

Our country it the only one that I have been in or know of where the display of the Flag is widespread and common - not just from government facilities, but from our homes, our vehicles, and our persons. People from other countries usually do not understand this passion for our flag. I do.

The Flag is a very personal symbol for me. I was born under it, serve under it, and I will respect it and safeguard it.

Why must we argue over things like this? - the well intended display of our Flag.

The Flag stands for all this country was, is, and will be. It is a symbol of sacrific, honor, unity. It is ours. Just please respect the Flag for what it stands for.

Even though carrying this large Flag is a technical violation of the US Flag Code, I think the intent is good and the manner of display is respectful.

I have no problem carrying or displaying such a large Flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully with intend to honor the Flag and what it stands for.

On 11 September 2001, there was a Soldier in NYC who was shown wrapped in a Flag - technically inappropriate, but it brought tears to my eyes for another reason. Some of you will underand why. Personally, I was proud of that young Soldier.

There are examples of of actions that show far more disrespect for our Flag:

Displaying, worn, torn, tattered, faded Flags.

Making Flags into articles of clothing or baggage.

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag passes by such as in a parade (stand, remove hat, etc.).

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag is raised, lowered,passes by, or when the National Anthem is played.

Just discarding an unserviceable Flag in the trash.

Deliberately desecrating the Flag.

Homeowner associations declaring display of the Flag as a violation of the association agreement.

And it appears that many in this country think that the last words of the National Anthem are "Play Ball" or "Start Your Engines".

I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial.

I was once at a Flag retirement ceremony at a Scout activity. When the Flag was placed in the fire, we were asked by the program director to turn our backs and walk away from the fire in a show of respect. Respect our Flag by turning our backs and walking away! I was the only person that remained, at attention, watching until every part of that Flag was consumed by the fire. I was not about to turn my back on that Flag!

Just please respect our Flag.

I once observed an elderly man in a wheelchair at a parade, struggle to his feet, stand at attention with his hand over his heart as a Color Guard carried the Flag past, while nearly everyone around him just sat on the curb. I have no idea who he was but it was obvious from his actions and bearing that he once served in the military. And he showed respect.

I have heard a suggestion that unserviceable Flags be buried with Veterans. I think that is a very good idea - and acceptable. What more appropriate honor for a Veteran to rest forever with a Flag that will be guarded by the Veteran for eternity by a Veteran who served under the Flag.

Our country it the only one that I have been in or know of where the display of the Flag is widespread and common - not just from government facilities, but from our homes, our vehicles, and our persons. People from other countries usually do not understand this passion for our flag. I do.

The Flag is a very personal symbol for me. I was born under it, serve under it, and I will respect it and safeguard it.

Why must we argue over things like this? - the well intended display of our Flag.

The Flag stands for all this country was, is, and will be. It is a symbol of sacrific, honor, unity. It is ours. Just please respect the Flag for what it stands for.

There appears to be quite a few message in the Camping and High Adventure Forum (and some of the other forums) dealing with equipment topics (tents, lights, packs, boots, stoves, etc.)

I think it would be a good idea to have a separate forum area on Scouter.com Forum dedicated to equipment.

That way all that equipment could be in one area making it easier to read, etc.

What do the rest of you think?