Old_OX_Eagle83

I'm advocating ethical decision making, and a system that removed even the possibility of the appearance of impropriety, as a "best practice".

What I'm hearing is a lot of "cowboy talk" - talk of action without though of possible consequence. We must always think beyond "what is required", and explore the best way to handle things.

Like many here, I'm an experienced scouter, and am sharing my point of view; one shaped from having been there, and done that,.

 

So I'd like to explore that a little bit. This suggests you would advocate for co-ed sports teams in schools? That is one basketball team, one volleyball team, one track team, one baseball team, all co-ed? You would advocate for shutting down or integrating all-female secondary and post-secondary schools? Regardless of their track record for educating women they would be required to admit on-campus resident male students?

One of my character flaws is honesty. Despite knowing it's the answer you're looking for, and it will fuel the fire, yes.

Yes, I do advocate co-ed sports, although not in the school. At the risk of derailing this conversation, I don't think sports have a place in schools, at least not beyond a fun non-organized activity engaged in during free time. I firmly believe Sports leagues belong in the community, not the school, but that another topic.To bring sports back in line with the topic, the real world, in the work place, men and women work, and compete, side by side.

I do advocate integrating all single gender secondary and post secondary schools, unless they exist for faith based reasons, in which case they should be privately funded. As far as some of these schools having good track records, fantastic, allow everyone to benefit. In the real world there will be men, and women, and being comfortable working together, and associating, is essential to being a well adjusted citizen. Schools team more then academics, they are the key place where young people learn to interact socially, and the sooner we make this an aspect of curriculum the better.

Separating the genders during adolescence causes social dysfunction. This dysfunction may manifest in anything from being uncomfortable with the opposite gender, to aggressive acts against the opposite gender.

Our future is a place where lines of separation between racial groups, genders, nations, and religions will soften, become more flexible, and people will freely associate, that formerly were kept apart by barriers of language, nation, belief system, social convention, race, and gender.

We must ask ourselves, are we preparing youth for the future, or holding them in the past?

BSA is like every corp out there in that those at the top receive ridiculous compensation, and those at the bottom have trouble making ends meet.

Knowing a bit about how BSA is set up, and who is making what, I'd say start at the SE level, which need a 25% pay cut, to be divided equally between every paid employee of the council. From there, working toward the top, cut all staffs by 50%, and all executive salaries by 50 %, putting the savings into property budgets. The CSE could do with a 60% cut in total compensation, and a 75% cut in allowable expenses, these funds could be used to offset the participant cost of national programs.

There ya go, all fixed ... now who's going to get this passed?

BTW, the same plan could be applied to nearly every US corporation, and in doing so nearly every issue in this nation would vanish in a few short years.

Greed is bad, and has no place in BSA.

 

It's actually the district or council's responsibility to verify those things. I think we're on the same page that it is not the best idea, but I also don't think it's a reason to question a scoutmaster's integrity.

You're correct on both counts.

The District/Council "should" be the approving body for all MBC, and they "should" all be registered.

My intent is to share a best practice that will prevent even the appearance of impropriety.

I'm a former SM, and learned that a bit of CYA is a very good thing, keeps you out of the crosshairs.

To answer your questions:

As a UC, OA Adviser, former SM, and CC, I've talked with lots of committee members ... some of the conversations I even enjoyed ... most not

I avoid pop music like a cat avoids water.

I don't watch the Grammy awards, I frankly don't care about others opinions on music.

Although I'm frequently accused of being "old school", the past is the past, and the future has no room for gender separation in organizations, schools, the workplace, or any activity.

As much as I love BSA, it has lots of "Archie Bunker" types, and think it's still decades ago. There are some things I'd love to bring pack from the past, but simply put the past is called the past for a reason. We can either fix our gaze on the horizon, and move into the future, or become extinct.

"One of the challenges of being a good SM is what they don't know because when someone states mater-of-factly that the SM can't be a MBC, the SM might believe it, thus tying their hands of an opportunity for helping a scout’s growth."

Read carefully, I never said a SM can't be a MBC. The SM isn't an ideal choice for MBC, he has enough to do, and the scouts need association with multiple adults.

Why is it unethical for the SM to approve himself as MBC, present the material, and sign off on it? I think the answer is in the question. A MBC should be a subject matter expert, and the SM is the one that verifies the MBC is qualified, understands BSA YP, and will meet the BSA MB requirements. In a perfect world every MBC will be registered as such, but back to reality ...

What keeps a SM from teaching something he's not qualified to teach, if there are no checks and balances?

the girl scout leaders run the units like kingdoms.....You are good enough to join, you are, you are, you are not.

 

Troops are run on the whim of the leader....

 

Zero accountability of the unit leaders...

 

Never ever voice an opinion to a leader

 

You are not qualified to be a leader because you are male.

 

You are not from our school/neighborhood/social group/race/religion/financial class you cannot join our troop

 

Oh call the council office they will get back to you with a unit.......Been making that call the first monday of every month now for 2 years.

 

Oh lets do this crafty thing.....Sell cookies.....

 

BTW where did all that cookie and dues money go?????

 

 

Leader quits the unit is dead.

 

None of the GS troops I have seen own anything of any significance. No tents, outdoor kitchens.....Nothing.

 

The only thing the GSUSA has over the BSA is a national recongizable fundraiser. Beyond that it is a train wreck.....

 

Basement, there is a slightly better way GSUSA units can be ran, and I would have put it a bit more kindly, but in the end you've defined Girl Scout Troop function quite well. My oldest was a girl scout (she's soon to be 30 now), and I did help out in a number of roles, but never that of leader ... it was made clear that my wife was appreciated as a leader, but I was not correctly equipped.

Train wreck sums it up quite well.

BSA needs to go full co-ed top to bottom, I know many girls, from 7-14, who would line up to participate in the program our Pack and Troop offers.

Although this is officially something that should not happen, as this group has created the appearance of speaking for BSA, it would be difficult to chastise the scouts and leaders for participation. We do have to practice what we preach ...

A Scout is Brave. A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

We stopped using it because of the exact issue you have.

There right there on the Blue Card ... it requires signatures of separate people for a reason.

In the case in question it's likely no one's taking advantage, and that thought never occurred. However, it's important to prevent in the appearance of impropriety.

If the SM is the only choice for MBC for a specific badge, where's the downside in having an ASM handle the typical SM part of the transaction? The up side is everyone's behinds are covered. For an official ruling on how to do things go to the District Advancement Chair.

I wonder why isn't this in the SM handbook? Could it possibly be that the roles of drug counselor, social worker, and probation officer were never intended to be part of a SM's job description?

 

Even if the SM does a great job and everything turns out well, I still think the SE and CO should have stepped in on this one.

 

I agree David, except in one thing, notifying the SE and CO are not optional steps. Failure to notify the SE and CO is a Charter violation.

The SM and/or CC don't get to decide this scouts future with scouts, this matter isn't handled at that level. In as far as counseling the scout, that's certainly beyond the scope of a SM's role.

Setting a poor example by not following the rules, and law, is also not appropriate for a SM. Not reporting a felony to law enforcement is a crime in every state I'm aware of. Distribution of narcotics to someone below the age od majority is a felony in every state I'm aware of.

Failure to report criminal activity on BSA property is a violation of BSA national policy.

What an amazing example!

King, in a word ... No

Except maybe church camp or youth group or finishing school?

I'm sorry, leading up to Feb 14th, my youth need to learn about winter survival.

 

For being long gone, we got millions of boys getting a kick out of it. We don't have anywhere near that many girls in the wings willing to "mix it up."

 

You got that in writing?

I absolutely agree that most church camps, most youth groups, and most finishing schools are also ideal. I say most because there are some of each that teach things that will not help our youth become productive members of today's society.

My reference to a past long gone is talking about an age where male and female don't mix. Our separate programing speaks to an age where the genders weren't seen as equal, and women were viewed as unclean, a force of corruption. Although this nation is very backwards in many social respects, we're well beyond such ignorance.

Scouting's dress code comes from national; the well known parts of it are the Field and Activity uniforms. If you take a closer loom you'll find swim attire, dress attire, ect are all defined by national. When at a BSA event or BSA camp, national's policies apply, and trump any Charter Org rules on dress code.

I've been to many BSA summer camp programs, at many camps, and have never encountered one that didn't go out of its way to state that the dress code will follow BSA guidelines.

If I recall correctly all the rules/guidelines for attire are found under "National Guidelines" and the various national guidelines for camp/camp program operation.

Good advice all

Barry, I agree, but there are checks and balances for a reason. Ethics dictate that he also act to preserve the checks and balances.

Our 15-yr-old chief uses tobacco right out front of everyone. Frankly' date=' it's the kind of thing I expect from the OA.[/quote']

 

Policy is clear on what happens, follow policy ... fix the issue

Gave it a good read, and another to take it apart. I'm huge on preserving tradition, but I always found the Brotherhood Ceremony flat, and uninspired, failing to met the stand set by the Pre-Order, Ordeal, and Vigil. I like what I'm reading, but the Jury is out until I see it done both well, and poorly.

The age of paper has ended, go digital and email. There's actually two other questions here:

1. Transparency to parents

2. To what degree to allow parental involvement in the committee.

There are many different takes on these questions, and many different ways of doing things. I've seen one pack thrive with a scenario that a pack across town fails with, find what's right for you.

... and the correct answer is ask your District Advancement Chair (or his Adult Recognition person)

Dry doesn't even begin to describe the training, and it's even worse when you consider it should be done twice a year!

One of the things I found helps is using a small group of senior scouts, possibly your NYLT trained scouts, as "comic relief with a purpose". At the beginning of every module have them do a short skit which is a group of scout leaders doing exactly the wrong thing in comic ways. Add in a few spontaneous run-ons to drive key points home.

We all must be diligent in our training, planning, and leadership; and always be prepared. Although there will be freak scenarios that we cant foresee, prevent, or counter, we must always do all we can to truly be prepared.

These losses are horrible, but they should also be a reminder of our responsibility as program participants, and leaders. I don't know that anything could have been done to prevent these deaths, but we must always be prepared.

Ideally the SM should not be a MBC for his own scouts. If the SM needs to be a MBC for his own scouts the ethical thing would be to have an ASM, or MBC who is not the subject matter expert for this MB, verify completion and sign off as MBC with the SM signing his usual spot.

There are fundraising rules that cover excess funds, no biggie.

However, here's a big issue:

" A committee is formed each year and takes care of the planning, budget, acquiring of the facilities and equipment. The committee decides on a cost per family."

THERES NO NEED TO FORM A COMMITTEE ... THIS SHOULD ALL BE HANDED BY THE PLC

This is the Boy Scouts of America, not the Parent Scouts of America.

The Order of the Arrow is a Boy Scout program, administered by the local councils. If a scout is caught with illegal drugs on Council property the SE has to be notified. The SE is the ultimate authority in the OA Lodge and whatever decisions the council makes about the scout will also apply to OA participation.

The OA is not an entity separate from BSA and local council and more than the Local Council's Camp is.

Can't agree with you on this one Basement. Part of being a good citizen, good values, and ethical behavior is learning how to effectively function in a diverse population. Just as our population is made up of multiple races, people of varied ancestry, and many faiths, our population is made up of two genders.

Frankly I can't imagine a better setting for scouts to learn how to interact with members of the opposite gender then under supervision at scout camp. Frankly, it's time we integrate all the US Scouting Programs; we're clinging to a remnant of a past long gone.

As far as dress code, BSA and our camps already have that in place.