Old_OX_Eagle83

Thank you Pack, finally someone who is looking at what's important here. I bleed Red and Green, like the rest of you, but a reality check is needed here. This young man needs help, and not with a merit badge.

Well said Barry

I think this issue stems from a culture grown overly competitive, that has produced a full generation, or maybe two now, that are trained to "look for the win", and see Eagle Scout as that win.

We need to change the thinking of our leaders, from Tiger up, on the Aims of scouting, and the correct way to use all methods of scouting, in a balanced way, to achieve the Aims. This change would have to start with the DE pitching scouting in the school guy, include every training course, and flow through the youth and adults who put this program on.

Just thought about something. If there are any Baptist units left in the BSA' date=' do their unit's OA members participate is ceremonial dance teams?[/quote']

 

Yes, and yes King. I'm not following why they would not. Understand a large portion of native dance is non-religious, story based, and the majority of what has religious connections is off limits to scouts, or altered to remove that element.

 

Baptist's do dance, ever seen Foot Loose?

This thread is a perfect example of the problem attitude that has developed with Eagle Scout.

Eagle Scout is a possible attainment for our best and brightest, those who should be on a pedestal, a shining example, and a spokesperson for BSA.

Not every scout should get Eagle, not every scout has what it takes. Eagle is not a completion of Scouting, it isn't a graduation, it isn't resume filler. This award is cheapened when we begin to think "everyone should win" and "they all deserve it"; sorry it just isn't so.

This kid screwed up major, and we should be concerned about how to get him help ... not finding a way to give him a rare honor, he in no way deserves.

We're talking about a minor who not only is comfortable breaking the law, and encouraging other youth to follow his steps, but also clearly has criminal contacts ... drug dealers he has relations with, and a fund source likely unknown to this family, that is possibly criminal as well. Are we really talking about finessing the rules, so this deserving young man can get Eagle ... really?

Are you kidding me?

Lets talk about getting law enforcement to investigate, determine where the illegal drugs came from, and shut down the pipeline. If that source is his family, lets get child protective services on this. Lets get this young man in a rehab and rehabilitation program, and hopefully get this youth clean and sober, and put him back on the straight and narrow. I support doing all of these things; but no scouter worthy of putting on the uniform would be thinking about this young man's advancement at this time, much less trying to find a way to "beat the system" and get him Eagle Scout.

Put on the uniform, follow the rules and guidelines of BSA, show scout spirit by living by the Oath and Law, set the correct example - rewarding those who follow your example, and not those who don't ... or take off the uniform, and find something else to do with your time. I'm a member of BSA, a registered leader, a coach, mentor, and guide of youth in this program; BSA is very clear on what needs to happen here. BTW, has the SE been notified of this event, as required?

How long will it be before that wave of intolerance reaches the BSA and it's OA references to such culture? ... About 30 years ago.

The OA and "The First People" have had rocky relations at times. Although not an OA group, the Koshare story is a very good example of how things have been. By and large we do, and have had issues, but by showing respect for, and demonstrating a desire to learn and preserve, the customs and traditions of the various aboriginal groups we've gained respect and trust. It's important we remain mindful of our relations with all Nations, Tribes, and Bands.

The OA has strong ties to Native American tradition, legend, and custom not only because it's a rich heritage with our wilderness areas are closely tied to, but also because every young man after the turn of the last century was absolutely fascinated with all things related to Native American life, and frontier culture. In short if you want kids attention, give them what they want.

The purpose of the OA has changed in many ways, many times, over the past 100 years. However, there's one item that should appear in that list, that to my knowledge never has: To learn, preserve, and educate fellow scouts on the history, traditions, and lore of the many storied camps, and outdoor properties owned, and used, by BSA. This is my opinion, but it might as well be on the list, as it is a part of who and what we are, and Native American Legend, Lore, and Tradition are a big part of the color of our camps and properties.

Although it's true 2014 doesn't much resemble 1910, it's also true that we have to have a unique hook to grab scouts attention. The mystery and beauty surrounding all things relating to aboriginal culture remain something scouts can't get elsewhere, and a big draw.

We're currently in the process of doing some rebuilding of our OA program, and have been experimenting with what draws the scouts interest. Repeatedly, and without exception, Native American displays and activities, win out. This spring a round dance voluntarily drew nearly every event participant away from a mini carnival with dunking booths featuring lodge officers. This past winter our Lodge sponsored trainings drew little attention at University of Scouting, until we began to drum and sing, at which point people left the classes they had signed up for and joined us. When Goodman and Edson identified Native American activities, legends, and lore as a way to capture and hold youth attention, they nailed it.

Fred - he hasn't done everything, he missed the whole point in scouting ... character development, becoming a good citizen ... values, ethics ...

This young man has when through the motions, but nothing more.

When sitting on District Eagle Boards I've often said "we're not here to make Eagle Scouts, but to recognize the Eagle Scouts that come in this room. Your young man is no Eagle Scout, in fact he's no scout at all.

It's all about the journey, and a constant reminder that Eagle isn't a destination. Eagle Scout should never be a young man's goal in scouting, it should be a possible byproduct of his journey through scouting.

Scouting isn't about pretty patches, and cool titles, they are mechanisms designed to support achieving the "aims of Scouting" ... something we must never loose sight of.

"Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness.

Thank you SR540 Beaver, good answer.

Also remember the OA was originally known as BSA's Honor Camper Society, and was born at Treasure Island Scout Camp, as a summer camp program.

There are those who have forgotten that " ... the Order of the Arrow is a thing of the Outdoors and camping". The OA isn't a thing of dormitories and fun games; one of the crisis we face is loosing sight of our purpose.

"The Order of the Arrow is a thing of the spirit rather than of mechanics. Organization, operational procedure, and paraphernalia are necessary in any large and growing movement, but they are not what count in the end. The things of the spirit count"

Dr. E Earner Goodman

What's tough, this young man committed multiple criminal acts, and did so at a BSA event, on BSA property. To add the icing to the cake, the scout was acting as the worst possible role model.

Your young man no longer meets rank requirement #2:

Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.

I'd be shocked if BSA, or the Charter Org, doesn't pull this young mans registration. This young man is not, and should not, be an Eagle Scout.

Boy's Life should do a feature on Wayne Hessemer, scout's need this type of role model.

One more to add to my "I need to read list".

Young scout patrols are as good as you make them. A good NSP will facilitate a transition from Cub to Boy Scouts, and acclimate the new scouts to your troops customs and methods, while developing future leadership and facilitating the scouts acquiring the skills needed to advance to First Class.

What we've found works best is a starting structure of an ASM working with a Troop Guide (that should be at least 13). The Guide ideally is someone who has leadership potential, and for whatever reason never receives appointments from the SPL. The Guide and ASM of young scouts should start a few months ahead of time, and partner with the SPL and SM to build a structured one year program, with specific meeting, and event plans, including patrol only events. Within 90 days after crossover the ASM should step back and act as Adviser to the Guide, only interacting with the Guide, who takes on the Primary leadership role, selecting a new scout as his assistant for each of the next three months. The Guide and his assistant should work with the whole patrol to flesh out the meeting and event plans, handling their own instruction, under the guides direction (the guide should bring in fellow scouts, who are subject matter experts, when needed). When the six month mark is reached the patrol should elect a PL, with the Guide becoming adviser, and continue to run the program as before. The Guide should now only interact with the PL. APL and patrol jobs should be assigned, and used. In another three months the Guide should step out of the chain of command, allowing the new Scout Patrol Leader to deal directly with the SPL. AS the scouts reach first class, which should happen in 9-12 months, they should graduate to the venture patrols. At nine months the ASM of young scouts starts doing SMCs for lack of advancement, and the Guide mentors those who are struggling. In a year your nest should be empty, and your scouts, no longer new, fully ready for all scouting has to offer.

TAHAWK,

If your post was in response to mine they don't like up well. All of your definitions of the Divine, God if you will, include "creator", whereas I never mentioned creator. This is a very important distinction with comparing western and eastern belief systems, and the Jewish, Islamic, Christian family of beliefs to most anything else.

Buddhism is a tough nut because it's not so much what most would call a religion, as a system and philosophy on how you view, and interact with everything, including your faith, which could be anything.

To break out of the western mind set you need to be able to put aside the image of God as being similar to a human in thought - form - process - action - perception - understanding - motivation, and move into the ream of a divine pattern/process that functions beyond simple human comprehension.

Maybe I'm wrong on how this would play out, it's happened before My fear is some young ladies will not want separate but equal, and will decide to challenge things legally. Qwazse, I'm interesting in learning more about these matriarchal groups, rather then side track the thread can you message me information?

This is always a big can of worms. My opinion is age is not important, but the maturity, and experience to grasp the lessons along the scout trail is. If scouts are truly mastering the skills along the way; truly filling office requirements, not just the holding office for a period of time; and truly owning the project from vision, to plan, to communication, to leadership, to evaluation, they are old enough.

Where the process fails is where requirements are signed off without performance and understanding. No, I'm not suggesting testing on BOR, I'm suggesting testing before requirements are signed off.

Pattern of good instruction: Week one: Skill is taught with EDGE. Week two: scouts perform skill, and are guided to mastery. Week three: Scouts are reminded that they will have to demonstrate the skills, without assistance next week. Week four: Skill is tested, and requirements signed off.

Fulfilling POR: 1. Given a written job description, which he discusses with SPL or ASPL (depending on office) upon election. At this point it's determined that he has a full understanding of all expectations, and knows who will provide guidance, if needed, and where to locate needed resources. 2. Leader is correctly trained at unit level. 3. Leader has monthly evaluations with SPL/ASPL, SM or designee sits in every other month. 4. Leadership team has a reflection a the terms end, followed by exit interviews, where it's determined if the POR holder met stated expectations. 5. If expectations were met, credit for POR is given.

Eagle is not a graduation from Boy Scouts, not every scout should, or will, earn it. Those young who choose to test themselves, and want to explore their full potential, tread the path to eagle.

Scouting is about the journey, not the destination.

As much as I'd live to see this Chapter get it's act together, and this unit step up to help make the program better, those are things I can't change. I understand the OP very much wants to change these two things, and believe me I'm cheering him on. However, with that being said ...

There's a few very key things that need remembered as we discuss this:

1. The OA's original, and continuing purpose, is to recognize scouts who are model campers and scouts, and by honoring them, inspire other scouts to master the same skills, and exhibit the same behaviors. - This program is Troop Based, originating in the troop, helping shape better leaders, that return to the Troop, where their first duty lies, to strengthen the troop.

2. The OA program only has a handful of adult positions, as it's intended that the leaders of the troops involved participate, and provide the additional supervision, and direction.

3. The OA program is a camp based program, designed around a summer camp program ... which is a unit based program.

I Could go on all day, but the point's made. The OA program exists to serve the units, requires unit support to succeed; and relies on the manpower, connections, and resources of the units it serves. Any attempt to separate the OA program from the Troops, or Camp, will destroy the program, and harm the troops and camp. There's a symbiotic relationship between Troop, Camp, and OA, each is dependent on the others. Every time changes have been made that impact this balance, or attempt to modify these relationships, all three programs suffer and the OA sustains the most damage.

The answer is to repair the relationship, and get the unit onboard with strengthening the OA program. Remember the OA program is ran by youth from the troops, they have control.

It sounds like you have a good SM. I'm very glad the email is from the SM, and not a scout

The simple answer is, "Yes, the SM can ban the election". I don't agree with him, but that wasn't the question.

jpstodwftexas, where are you seeing adults in regalia' this is an express violation of National OA policy. Only youth may wear regalia as part of the OA program ... period. If adults are appearing in regalia, this needs reported to the Council Executive immediately, and stopped (See Below).

You're correct that there are male and female dance styles, based on Nation and Band. However, to honor native tradition, we would have to have "separate but equal" programs, segregated by gender ... I don't see that flying.

And further discussion in GTI:

Members' Uniforms

All members attending an Order of the Arrow ceremony should wear the Order of the Arrow sash and be in correct Scout uniform. Only youth members under the age of 21 who are participating as a principal or an assistant in the ceremony are allowed to wear American Indian costumes. Youth that do not have a part in the ceremony and all adults should be in complete Scout uniform with their Order of the Arrow sash and must not be in American Indian costumes or wearing pieces of American Indian regalia.

I hope this helps! If you have any further questions please feel free to ask.

Yours in Service,

Ray (Ray Capp - National OA Chairman)

Please note adult members can neither participate as a principal, or assistant, in any OA ceremony (Including AOL, Call Outs, and the Vigil Call Out).

I didn't say one that I should have. I respect that heck out of the OP for exploring this topic with an open mind, and all of those who have posted, and done the same. SSScout gave us a historic reminder of how volatile this topic is, and just how far we have came as nation, and an organization.

Dale, in the end your committee can't add "Duty to God" as part of the definition of "Scout Spirit", as it's already there, being part of the scout oath. Your SM can't judge a scout's performance of his "Duty to God", as his role is neither religious leader, nor God. BSA has not better defined Duty to God, as it is not BSA's place to do so, and should your unit attempt to better define "Duty to God" it's adding/changing rank requirements, which is a violation of the BSA Charter Agreement.

In the end this is a well intentioned journey that goes in a big circle, but in many cultures the circle is the symbol of introspection, self evaluation, a powerful learning tool. Through this journey we have come to a fuller understanding of the program, our roles, and how to best guide the young people in our charge.

The concept of the divine is not a simple thing for everyone. Perhaps the high and low knowledge of the Hindu best explains it. The Hindu worship many deities, but the Priest Cast know there is only one God, but each person perceives the divine in their own way. You mentioned Buddhists not believing in God, which is not exactly accurate (that would be a long discussion). Jains believe the divine manifests as life, and all life is divine (Sorta: Life = God). Another correction: Wiccan’s can form BSA units, but the Crescent and Hart Religious Emblem, offered by that faith, isn’t currently recognized by BSA.

Understand that the concept of God as a venerable bearded man in robes, is a simplistic, but easy to relate to; a mechanism that is uniquely western. Typically only the Jewish faith, and its spin offs, Islam and Christianity (in all their variations), embrace this simplistic view of the divine (God).

From my point of view BSA is very wise to not delve very deeply into the details of what “Duty to God†is. Only the individual in question, his or her religious leader(s), and parents, are qualified to define and discuss “Duty to Godâ€Â. The bottom line is only the divine “Godâ€Â, is qualified to judge who has done their duty.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Good post, although I fear it will be used by some as a soap box from which to promote personal beliefs.

First let me say the SM does not decide what Scout Spirit is; he decides if the scout is showing Scout Spirit. The definition of Scout Spirit is: A scout doing his or her best live to the codes of scouting, namely (for Boy Scouts): Scout Oath, Scout Law, Motto, Slogan, Outdoor Code, and Obligation(s) of OA (if an Arrowman).

Another very important point: A Scout Leader does not promote is own religious beliefs or faith to a scout, this is a violation of the parent’s trust. A scout leader encourages a scout to be true to his faith, follow the path set by his parents, respect and obey the clergy and tenements of his faith, while showing respect for all other faiths, and the followers of all other faiths.

The answer to your questions are above. Religious Emblems are administered, taught, and awarded by the faith in question, not BSA. Your role is to encourage all scouts to work on any appropriate emblems, and point the scouts, and families, to related resources.

Neither you, nor anyone in BSA, decides if a scout has done his duty to God, that’s for the leaders of the scout’s faith, or his parents. It is precisely for the above reasons that an Eagle Scout’s religious reference is from his religious leader or parent.

Your intentions are good, but you’re standing at the edge of a slippery slope, and there's great potential for harm if you tread that path.

1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!

 

2) For Lodge and Chapter Chief's, yes they can wear Silver loops, but no on the regional patch. According to the Guide to Officers and Advisers

 

The lodge adviser and lodge chief are members of the council camping or Boy Scout committee, and chapter advisers and their chiefs become members of their respective district committees.

 

So if your Lodge Chief can find one of the old Lodge Chief POR Patches that came out in 1993 or 1994, he can wear that without the unit numbers and silver loops. I also know of LCs wearing repros of them too (the patch came out of Supply without approval, so they had to destroy whatever inventory they had left. Lost of folks were buying them up when the word came out). If you can't find an old LC patch, the a Council Committee patch is available. Be advised they are restricted, and I will tell you that staff will look at you funny and question a youth getting that patch. But yes it is authorized

 

National never made a Chapter Chief Patch (although a Chapter Adviser one exists ?!?!?!?!) so he would need to wear a District Committee Patch. Ditto the strange looks and questioning. Also be ready for some adults to look at him funny and question not only why he's there, but why he has a vote on the committee.

 

Regional patches are restricted to employees, regional level Scouts, Venturers, and Scouters. Sea Scouts don't wear regional insignia. Only time you see Scouters wearing regional patches not in a regional POR is at Jambo.

This topic is a mire of what was, what is, and what's intended. I'm take things in reverse order, what's intended:

Youth OA offices do not count as a POR for advancement, and as such do not have office patches. If you obtain one of the old officer patches, or a custom one, they are worn as a temp patch.

A youth's primary registration is to a unit, and his loops should indicate his primary registration.

Region patches (correction of above) are work by professionals, those with region responsibilities, and/or at not only Jambo, but also NOAC. Regions have been asked to discontinue production of shoulder patches, and move to temp patches.

What is: Many Youth OA officers wear silver or gold loops if they serve on an appropriate committee. Many youth purchase custom office patches. Many NOAC/Jambo attendees continue wearing region insignia after the event.

The skinny on this - If a youth is wearing silver or gold loops it should be on a uniform that has the committee POR patch, and no unit numbers; this uniform should only be work when acting in that capacity. OA youth office patches may be worn as a temp patch only; the OA Rep is a unit POR and goes on the left sleeve. Technically, region patches come off after NOAC or Jambo, unless the person in question has region responsibilities.

What was: At one time region patches were worn by anyone who had been a delegate at a national event; no youth today was given a region patch under this policy. There was a limited number of official Lodge Chief POR patches made, but BSA actually officially reversed it's policy on these being worn as a POR patch, and regardless of uniform, may not be worn on the left sleeve. Silver and gold loops are restricted, always have been, and may never be worn on a uniform with unit numbers or a unit level POR patch.

You can use the 15 passenger van, so long as you have 12 or less passengers.