NJCubScouter

Ed Mori says: IMHO, a homesexual cannot be a good role model. And that's exactly what it is, your humble opinion. There is no other basis for this policy than opinions, some of them not so humble. So how about if you exercise your humble opinion in your unit, and let my CO exercise its humble opinion in my unit? (Btw I am not exactly sure what that opinion would be in the case of my CO, though I suspect that school district policy would probably dictate non-discrimination; in fact that is the policy now, though to my surprise nobody has ever raised it.) How would that hur

Roy, it sounds like what you did was appoint an "interim" SPL for about a month until a proper election with at least one qualified candidate could be held. Others may disagree, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It seems to me that what you did was consistent with the idea of a boy-run troop. Assuming that the age and rank requirements were adopted by the PLC, if there was no qualified candidate, you either had to temporarily modify the rules, or have a "caretaker" for a fairly brief period until someone satisfied the rules. Either would probably be acceptable, but what you did sou

CubsRugr8 says: Even if I use youth membership instead of unit numbers, the charge of undue influence by the LDS and RC church bodies just doesn't hold up. I have not expressed an opinion on the "undue influence" issue, I was just asking how you got your numbers. I still do not agree with your calculations, see below. But, as I have said in another thread, I don't think the issue is how the BSA policy got this way, the issue is that the policy infringes on the religious belies of some BSA members. The BSA says it is "absolutely nonsectarian," not just nonsectarian among the "major

Ed Mori says: If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the James Dale decision had nothing to do with the 1st Ammendment. It dealt with the freedom of association. Ed, "freedom of association" (and its varieties, including the right of "expressive association") is one of the rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. Here is the first sentence of the official Supreme Court summary of the Dale decision: Held: Applying New Jerseys public accommodations law to require the Boy Scouts to admit Dale violates the Boy Scouts First Amendment right of expressive association. The entire

I have no suggestions as to the transition program itself, but I do have a suggestion to improve your communication with the units. You say you have only heard back from 10 of 80 units. Have you tried monthly district roundtables as a means of communication? In our district our Boy Scout and Cub roundtables are held at the same time in the same large room, with the opportunity for the occasional joint session when the topic warrants. I would say roughly 25 percent of units are represented most months, which may not sound like much, except that you are only at 12.5 percent right now. And

Tj, the only issue I would take with your comments is that I do not particularize the issue to any one church. I have studiously avoided the issue of who controls what at the national level. I have read several articles and they seem to bear out the fact that religious organizations effectively control decision-making at the national level, though they differ regarding the relative strength of one church versus others. I also cannot disagree with BobWhite's point that whoever controls BSA National does so in accordance with the by-laws. I don't want to get into it, and I don't need to, bec

Roy, it seems to me that your troop's request (I like that it is phrased in terms of an "ask" and would not be surprised if you get more compliance that way than a troop that "tells") is mainly for safety reasons. And perhaps secondarily to avoid having valuables lost or damaged during physical activities. Is that correct? If so, I don't see how anyone could object to it. It is fair, evenhanded and has a worthwhile purpose(s). ("Evenhanded" because it does not single out only those types of jewelry that have come into vogue in the past 15 years, but applies to all.) It does not imply

I have raised a particular issue in a couple different threads and I haven't really gotten a response, so I'll start a new thread. Premise # 1 -- The BSA policy regarding exclusion of gay leaders is motivated by religious doctrines. (I have seen some people try to deny this, but it is pointless, the BSA web site itself says that the alleged immorality of homosexuality is a "faith-based value," and it is the BSA's policy so they should know.) Premise # 2 -- BSA policy is that it does not give preference to one religious belief over another, or as stated in the Declaration of Religiou

By the way, I liked "The American President" the first and probably the second time I saw it (both on tv.) My enthusiasm has waned after someone bought the tape for my wife (most probably me, as a gift), and my wife and daughters proceeded to watch it for the third, fourth, tenth, whatever-eth time. Over time, it has dawned on me that it is basically a love story with the political stuff tacked on, and I can only take a love-story movie once, if at all. (Notice I avoided using the term "chick flick.") And also by the way, though I agreed ideologically with almost all of the liberal-lea

OK Rooster, after I had read 90 percent of your post, my answer to your comments about why "separation church and state" is read into the Establishment Clause was going to be, "because a majority of the Supreme Court says so." But you did get around to that at the very end. There are a lot of things the Constitution is interpreted to say that it does not literally say. The First Amendment says nothing about "expressive association," and yet James Dale is not an Assistant Scoutmaster. Article III says nothing about the U.S. Supreme Court being able to reverse a STATE supreme court's interpr

I have wondered about the specific subject of minority interest in Scouting, in the context of my own unit. About 99 percent of my pack is from the area that sends its students to the elementary school whose PTA is our CO, and where we meet. We probably have 80 percent or more of the Cubs who live in this school's sending-area. In other words, we are pretty-much tied to one geographic (suburban) area and are not really competing with other packs for the boys in this area. My guess would be that 10 to 15 percent of the population is black and a similar percentage is Hispanic. Every fam

bigbeard suggests, among other things: Make Den Chief an official rank requirement for Star, maybe. I assume you don't mean to require every boy to be a Den Chief to make Star. I assume you do mean to make it a position that will satisfy the position-of-responsibility requirement; but it already is, for Star, Life and Eagle.

Let me just pick out a sentence from LongHaul's most recent post: The exclusion of Gay leaders, just as the exclusion of Female leaders is policy not program and shouldn't be confused. I can't help pointing out that the exclusion of female leaders is former policy -- actually now the policy is local option. Just as it should be with gay leaders. The BSA, having won the legal right to exclude female leaders, soon decided to allow female leaders anyway. That is how this issue should end. Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

BobWhite made a few points in different posts on the "Undue Influence" thread that I want to respond to. In the interest of trying to allow that thread to be about what it was originally about, I have started this new thread. So here are my responses to BobWhite: As a religious leader and Eagle Scout, said tio a group of us at a national training center on this issue, his church is in total disagreement with the BSA on this issue. However they still charter and will continue to charter scouting units. The reason he gave was that this is such a small part of who we are and what we do tha

I do realize that this has gone off-thread, and now I am going to take us a little further into theological territory. Not too far, hopefully. But religion is the key to this whole issue, so it is worth discussing. Ed Mori says: The oath says duty to God. Now, for you and me, that is the same God. For a Muslim, it might be a different God. I don't know if your God and my God are the same. As I said, my beliefs combine some aspects of the Old Testament and some aspects of Deism, and I suspect from your question about Sodom and Gemorrah that you haven't read the web site about

CubsRugr comes to a conclusion based on several "if"s, the key one of which is If the majority of units (about 60%) are chartered to religious organizations which still officially teach that sexual relations belong in the context of a heterosexual marriage Assuming for the moment that this "if", if true, would support your point, I don't see how you get the 60 percent figure from the list that was posted. The issue is not whether a particular church teaches "that sexual relations belong in the context of a heterosexual marriage." Reform Judaism probably teaches the same thing, but

Ed, not that my own religion particularly matters to the discussion, but as I thought I implied, I am Jewish. My actual beliefs are a mixture of the Reform and Reconstructionist movements within that faith, and portions of Deism (the actual religion of some of our founding fathers including Thomas Jefferson, see more at http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm), and maybe a few personal things thrown in. So, I am not a Christian (though my wife and children are.) But within Christianity (which as I understand it, includes all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox

Ed Mori, succintly stating the real issue in this whole debate, says: In God's eyes, homosexuality is a sin. Therefore being homosexual is a sin. Sin is separation form God. In my opinion, one cannot be reverent to God if you are separated from Him. OK, but that's what YOU believe. It's the teaching of your religion, or the way you interpret it, and it's how you perceive God and what his eyes see. And if your belief is based on scripture, it is YOUR scripture and the way you and/or your religion interprets it and applies it to today's world. You are free to practice YOUR religion i

Amazing what you can find on the Web. See www.girlscouts.org, which says: Theree are five age levels in Girl Scouting: Daisy Girl Scouts, ages 5-6; Brownie Girl Scouts, ages 6-8; Junior Girl Scouts, ages 8-11; Cadette Girl Scouts, ages 11-14; and Senior Girl Scouts, ages 14-17. They have it by age, but at least in my area it seems to go by grade in school. I guess it works out to: Kindergarten for Daisies, 1st-2nd for Brownies, 3rd-5th for Juniors, 6th-8th for Cadettes, and high school for Seniors. When my daughters were Girl Scouts (one quit around fourth grade and the other aro

Well, I see that after an apparent few days absence leaving me to carry the torch for truth, justice and the ever-increasingly American way, the much better-informed tjhammer has jumped back in and is saying almost everything on this issue that I would say, and more. So I just have a few things to add: BobWhite... and by the way, I also want to sincerely thank you for the wealth of information and wisdom that you bring to the day-to-day Scouting topics. In all the recent debates about how troops should be run, advancement, boys with blue hair, etc., some of which got ridiculously overhe

Bob, since I am somewhat in "learning mode" along with sctmom, and want to know some things so I can tell whether a prosective troop for my son is well-run, I have a question: On the idea of a "bag of bags" (which I do recall from Philmont and Appalachian Trail backpackers back in the last century)and keeping the tent floor clear, how are these ideas imparted to the new boys prior to their first shakedown? Is it all in the handbook? (My son's handbook is still the Webelos book.) Is there a training session run by the troop guide? An instructor? The PL? An adult? Is anything provided in

Of course, a Scout who makes First Class at 12 -- or even 11 and a half or less -- regardless of whether due to "First Class First Year" or on his own initiative, must perform SOME position of responsibility in order to advance to Star. It does not necessarily have to be patrol leader, it could be troop librarian, scribe or something like that. I'm guessing that few SPL's would want a 12 year old (or less) as their troop quartermaster, but some could probably handle it. Some could probably also handle being PL. Here is an issue I am unsure of. Assistant Patrol Leader does not appear

No offense, LongHaul, but this thread has become pointless. The facts keep changing.

LongHaul says: Obviously I misunderstood your reference to a nation at war. Fair enough. I don't look at this as much as a gay/straight issue as I do an issue of someone trying to impose their views on others. I also see it as an issue of "someone trying to impose their views on others," but I suspect that I am referring to different "someones" than you are. I don't care what two grown people do in the privacy of their own home. Maybe you don't, but I don't think the same is true for a number of other people who post on this subject. Nor do I think it is true of

Hey, the forum has learned to read html again, wtg forum dudes! K9gold-scout, I am familiar with what you are saying about a separate 501c corporation that is created to be a CO for a Scout unit, in fact in my township we have a troop that has that. The CO is Friends of Troop xx. There are several differences between that and what LongHaul is talking about. First, Friends of Troop xx, in both your example and mine, actually goes through the IRS paperwork and gets approval as a non-profit corporation, and then continues to submit whatever is necessary to maintain that status. I doubt th