Narraticong

So our troop is having our first Eagle Court of Honor in a few weeks. We are a small (but growing) troop with under 20 boys. In addition to the Eagle Award, I would like to have a few other awards as in a normal COH. Since we are a small troop, the other awards would not be time consuming.

Others have told me that other awards are NEVER given at an Eagle COH! It is the time for the light to shine only on the Eagle. I did not have the heart to show them the program from my own Eagle COH at which I (as SPL) presented the 2nd Class Rank awards).

I can see it both ways, but I think the new Eagle is a boy who would eagerly share the light. His parents feel it should be all about him.

So what do you all think?

Ken

BadenP-

I'm not looking through rose colored glasses whatsoever. I believe the Oath and Law must be at the foundation of everything we do. Our Council Executives are the most important decision makers we employ. As I mentioned, I agree that being an outstanding business manager is a top priority.

Maybe you don't see it the same as I do, but i look at Scouts as being a little different from your ordinary business. While most businesses have a mission statement, very few have a moral code by which they operate. Perhaps America would be in better shape if they did. BSA has a moral code by which all members strive to live.

So, for me, before we even get to the point of talking about business accomplishments, I want to know that any potential SE also "does his best" to live up to the Oath and Law. As for most of the professionals I have seen, not all meet the criteria. Many come not from a Scouting background, but from a desire to work in a career serving youth. Having a desire to serve youth does not mean one has the same moral compass as required by BSA.

Our Scouts hold themselves to a higher standard than other young people. It is therefore imperative that we as volunteers do the same. In turn, we must expect our professionals to live to the same standard. Unless we believe in the Scout Oath and Law, from the top of BSA professional ranks on down, we are doing no more than living a lie.

Ken

Some really vital ideas so far as to the business end of BSA. But my first interest would be whether he can recite the Oath and Law. I would like his resume and recommendations to show how he has lived the Oath and Law in his daily life, especially outside of his career. How does he live up to his Duty to God? I believe to really be a success the BSA needs SE's who can do the above.

Ken

My son and I did indeed listen to the broadcast. He had been eagerly waiting for it since reading the email we received regardng the broadcast. I forgot about it totally and was all set to watch "Bones" on TV when he called out to tell me it was almost time.

I agree it could have been more interesting. But it is a start. My son is 13 and he and the other boys are very techno oriented. Webcasts intrigue them. We both found the video to be terrific and he will somehow download to show at our meeting next week.

Ideas like this and having the handbook on Ipod will be ways in which BSA will keep boys interested. If they feel Scouts is not keeping up with their world, they will leave it behind. As a firm believer in very traditional Scouting, I also believe we can use technology to our advantage.

Great idea!

Ken

For those who believe the SE is omnipotent, I say it is only so if you let it be that way. Although I am only one lowly Scoutmaster, the professionals in my council are well familiar with me. If I see something I think needs to be changed at summer camp, I personally discuss with the Director. If appropriate action is taken, his boss finds out with a nice "thank you" email. If my ideas are ignored, or I am given what I believe is a "wrong" answer- we head up the food chain.

Remember that each professional in your council has a boss, and an annual review. I guarantee that none of them, including the SE, is so comfortable that they will like a bunch of negative comments flowing electronically to their bosses, whether locally or in Irving. If your ideas are valid, others will gladly jump on the bandwagon. The doors of your Council Office are open during business hours. March right in and make yourself at home.

I agree that executive committees are often no more than rubber stamps. I find that most of the members of mine have not spent a night with a unit in a tent in years, if ever. Get to know them. Invite them (politely demand their attendance) to come to Roundtable. Make them listen. Have your Charter Organization Rep contact the SE.

We CAN take this organization back and make it the BSA it once was. But we can not do it by hiding our heads in the sand.

In the case of KMSR, none of the reasons stated for closing have just happened. They have been there for years. It does look like it has now reach the point of no return. Summer camp is a mainstay of the Scouting program. For CNJC to now consider not offering a summer camp program at all is very telling. Perhaps the professionals will take dollars previously budgeted for camp and move them to a soccer program?

Ken

Regardless the reason behind it, this is news which deeply saddens me. Kittatinny Mountain Scout Reservation was my boyhood camp. I served on Summer Camp Staff there as a young man while in college. It was never a very fancy camp, but it was mine. I take my screen name from the OA Lodge which had KMSR as its home. The thought of our very special cermonial ground becoming part of just another suburban backyard breaks my heart. Having lived in Michigan now for thirty three years, I have not made it back to that camp since the mid-80's. Looks like I'll have to make a trip soon and take one more hike through those beautiful mountains.

As to blaming the professionals, shame on us for doing that. The boys and the volunteer adults own these properties, not the professionals. If your camp is not up to code and does not offer what you want, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! The professionals work for us, not the other way around. Get active with your camping committee. Tell them what you want, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! How many of you wear OA flaps but have not paid dues or done a single arduous task since your Ordeal? Labor is a huge portion of the cost of any project. I think it is safe to assume that every OA Lodge is chuck full of skilled tradesman who would/could help with upgrades.

Ken

If Boy Scouts went coed, I'm afraid I would have to look elsewhere for an organization to support. There are other grass roots "traditional" Scouting organizations out there.

While I come down firmly on the side of absolute equality between men and women, I also acknowledge the simple fact that the sexes are both physically and mentally different. I believe it is perfectly healthy that single sex organizations exist for boys and girls.

There are already plenty of organizations available for those who desire a coed experience for their child. If you believe in that, then volunteer and do your best to make that organization as great as the Boy Scouts of America. The more outstanding youth programs we can provide, the better off our children will be.

But please do not tell me that BSA MUST become coed. It is my opinion that BSA has struggled for years because our professionals have seen fit to try to serve everyone rather than be the best at what we are. The simple fact is there are many families which still hold to traditional values. Had BSA done the same rather than just use "Tradional Values" as buzz words, we may have seen our numbers stay steady rather than decline. We have sunk millions of dollars in donations into failed programs to appeal to everyone across the board. Had we used that money to provide the absolute best outdoor based program we could, I wonder where we might be membership wise today?

Yes, I am very grateful for the women who serve in various leadership capacities in our troop, and for the Moms who step up and help out as needed. Just as I am grateful for the Dads. No more, no less. The unit could not function without everyone playing a role.

Some of us do believe the optimum situation is to have men as the primary leaders. Not everyone believes that men and women are wired the same. Many boys are sorely lacking of male role models in their lives. Many of us who believe in traditional, coservative values believe it is best for a boy to learn to be a man from men of upstanding character. Some of us will remember the old BSA slogan Boypower / Manpower.

I was once a 12 year old boy, a 15 year old youth, and a 17 year old young man. I remember first hand the trials and tribulations of those ages. As Scoutmaster, I take it to heart to try to have a personal relationship with each of the boys in my troop. My hope is that they see me as a mentor, as someone they can talk to when they need a sounding board. Each and every Scoutmaster Conference is a "man to man" talk. The most important ones are the off the cuff, spur of the moment ones.

I do not doubt that a woman can be an outstanding Scoutmaster in many ways. But there is not one who has lived the life of an adolescent boy. No matter how many boys you have raised, no matter how many brothers you had, you have not walked in their shoes. And the boys know it.

Certainly a female Scoutmaster is preferential to the unit folding, or to a male who is a poor role model. But when we consider what would be optimal, I have to lean toward the man as the Scoutmaster.

I did serve as Den Leader from Tigers on. In the early years I had a Mom for an ADL. That worked out well and I am glad she was there. All along, our den focused more on the outdoor activities, the things that boys were excited about. Other dens tended to focus on crafts. When it turned time for crossover, our entire Webelos Den became Scouts. I can not think of a den prior to that in our pack that had 100% crossover.

Another poster mentioned the low percentage of male elementary teachers. She was absolutely right! We need more male teachers. Current studies show that for the past 30 years, teachers have been using teaching methods which are geared toward the ways girls learn. Trust me, there is a difference between the way boys and girls learn. I have read the research. My son was floundering in elemnentary school, although his IQ is scored at "Superior". He was just not responding to the teaching methods. When we switched him to a class with a male teacher, everything changed. The teacher had a different approach and understood how boys learn.

Boys and girls, men and women, we are different. It has not been politically correct for some time to believe that. But it is a fact. One sex is not superior to the other, just different. And in many ways, for that, I am grateful!

Ken

"Situational Awareness" is a great term to use when we choose to avoid admitting our weaknesses. If something is inappropriate around the boys, why is it really any more appropriate at other times? If we tell the boys it is not appropriate to swear, why then, is it OK for to do it amongst adults? Is that what is meant by situational awareness? When does swearing go from inappropriate to being OK? If it is wrong, then it is wrong.

Self rightous? By no means do I claim to always live up to the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law. They are targets for me to strive toward. No human yet has achieved perfection. My earlier post did not say we must always live up to our goals. But we must be honest enough to admit our weaknesses and try to do better. To say swearing is OK sometimes and not OK sometimes is no more than giving in to our weaknesses.

And as I see it, that has been one of the major downfalls of our society. "I'm OK, You're OK" just ain't so.

KO

I think ChaiAdventure has put it quite well. As a Christian, and particularly as a Lutheran, I have some very deeply held beliefs in regard to my Faith in God. I would assume those who practice other religions or denominations do also. My God has made it very clear to me that he is a jealous God, and demands that I worship only Him. For me to participate in a worship service which recognizes or worships other gods is just unacceptable.

In agreement with my friend John, I am very much in favor of conversation. It is a good thing to understand what others believe. As a member of our council Religious Relations Committee, I enjoy our annual Walk With God hike. During Relations Week at Philmont Training Center in 2008 I had many interesting conversations at mealtimes with Scouters of many beliefs.

But I just can not in good faith (maybe this is where that saying comes from...) worship with those of diffrent beliefs. As an American, and as a Scout, I respect your right to believe whatever you will. But we just are not worshipping the same god, so I choose not to participate in any joint services.

Ken

See Scout Oath- morally straight.

See Scout Law- Point #11- Clean

You either believe this and do your best to live this way, or you shouldn't raise your hand and repeat them. Simple.

Ken

As is often the case, I agree with John. If the SM can not have a good one to one relationaship with each and every boy, the troop may just be too big. Those boys are expecting to have that relationship. They NEED that relationship. My Scoutmaster "Mac" was the most important male role model in my life.

John fondly remembers the Scoutmasters who mentored him, as do I. While I believe an ASM can have an important relationship, it is key for the Scoutmaster to have one with each boy.

How quaint and old fashioned that the Scoutmasters John and I remember were all men.

Ken

Today in my mail I received all of the documentation for the first Eagle Scout from our troop. We started a brand new troop about 2 1/2 years ago with six boys who moved up from Webelos. Along the way we have had a few boys transfer in and we now stand at 19 active Scouts.

Our new Eagle had been in several troops previously and was close to dropping out when his parents convinced him to try one more. With his effort and a little mentoring, he finally made it. His BOR was three days before he left for college out of state. That took a lot of doing!

But this boy has meant so much to the success of our young troop. Having even one older boy made the difference. He was an example to a bunch of middle schoolers that Scouting IS COOL. Our Eagle wears the droopy jeans and has slightly long hair- typical of his age. He is also an accomplished musician and an Honors Student. This boy lives the Oath and Law by nature.

As a Scoutmaster, I could not be more proud. I hope I have the same feeling for Eagle number 10 as I do for number 1!

Ken

The life of what Boy Scout? Sorry, it's very creative, but I'd never let it see the light of day near my boys. Just wrong on lots of levels. Surely does not represent very many of the boys I know in the Detroit Area Council.

Maybe take some of your obvious talent and put it to better use...

Ken

I might have a slight bit more respect for Mr. Obama if he had the guts to donate the money to ACORN as has been suggested. But just as he has made a practice of denying his other comrades such as the Reverend Wright, I'm sure he will deny ACORN the much needed funds!

Ken

Shortridge-

I agree that one does not need to be an Eagle, or even a Scout, to possess the same qualities that we traditionally expect to see in an Eagle Scout. And there obviously are no special BSA regulations on how an Eagle should act. But back to "tradition".

Within and outside of Scouting, people have a higher expectation of Eagle Scouts. Across the past 100 years, Eagles have shown themselves, as a group, to be leaders and model citizens. In other words, they are an example of the ideals of Scouting. They are looked up to by other Scouts and by the community as a whole.

I think Packsaddles statements are right on target. I am guessing he is either an Eagle himself or has been close to more than one in his Scouting career.

Ken

New neckerchief is really nice! I'm a "bigger fella" and usually stick to bolos because the neckers just don't fit well. I also like the ribbon edge. Overall pretty sharp. Also got one for First Class son and he has been wearing it regularly. I do agree with previous mention that the rubber slide does not work well. Not sure if it is due to size or the material of the slide. Just doesn't go on easily.

But overall, this is a nice combination. Kudos to Supply Division on this one.

Ken

John-

We are not really disagreeing. If we are using the Patrol method, the Scoutmaster is functioning as a "Patrol Leader" for his PLC. The SM and PLC should be going on outings as a group. On those outings the SM teaches leadership by his example. He teaches the PLC skills as he would expect a PL or other Junior Leader to do so.

I have no problem with the theory behind EDGE. As others have stated, it is really just a common sense method which good leaders have used forever.

My concern is that we are sitting our boys in a classroom with PowerPoint and video presentations. I sat through one of those Junior Leader classes last winter. It was well done if the participants were MBA candidates. Lots of charts and graphs and PowerPoint. Multiple presenters. Somebody had really put some effort into the program. But the only time the boys showed interest was when they went outside for team building exercises. I'm guessing few made any connection between the class and the exercises.

All of this indoor training is not making our Scouts more enthusiastic about staying in the program. Another experiment...ask your PLC whether they would rather attend an outstanding six hour EDGE training class indoors with lots of glossy presentations, or go on a dayhike with their SM where they will focus on some new outdoor skills. See which one they choose.

The buzzwords do matter in the sense that they are part of an overall teaching methodology. Since the early 70's Scouting has moved indoors at a steady pace. The perfect example is that Camping Merit Badge is no longer an Eagle requirement.

Read an old edition of the Scoutmaster Handbook and take your boys outside. They will learn everything they will need to be effective leaders and citizens.

Ken

EXACTLY! Boys do not join Scouting because they want to learn to be leaders or become good citizens. They join becaue we promise to take them camping and show them adventure. They join because of canoeing, archery, rock climbing, knives and axes. If we use the Patrol Method, they will learn more than we ever imagined.

Sometimes I think parents today are looking for Scouting to be another step of college prep.

Ken

No offense to anyone, but try an experiment with me. Go back and read all the posts on this thread. But put yourself in the mindset of a Scout age boy. All this terminolgy would have them running for the exits and headed to soccer practice.

I'm afraid we get so caught up in the teaching methods that we make Scouting more and more like school. Scouting is meant to be a game where the boys learn to be good citizens by default.

The most important EDGE they need is the one they put on their knife!

Ken

What God gave us was free will (choice), not a RIGHT to blaspheme. Indeed, we Christians believe that free will comes with consequences (wages of sin). I am not condoning execution for blasphemy, but some societies have done that. I believe judgement will come at another place and time. Of course, their definition of blasphemy may not coincide with mine, either.

Why is blasphemy such a big deal for many of you? God gave each of us free will from the day we were born. You have always had the choice to blaspheme. Nobody can ever take away what God has given.

Just as the things I consider sacred are so because I choose to believe in them. Nobody forces my choice. I do so through my own free will. It's really not such a big deal.

Maybe the rub lies in that there have always been societal consequences, and as some of believe, eternal consequences, for our blasphemous acts and words.

But hey, in the end it's all about free will...

Ken

President Obama recently said America should consider a longer school year. The concept is that more classroom time will equate to better educated children. I can't argue much with that.

But a couple of questions to be considered. First, is it just healthy to give the kids some kind of break during the summer? A time to relax and be children. Which leads to the second question. If year around school is implemented, what will happen to BSA summer camps and high adventure bases such as Philmont? Seems they would pretty much have close down. Thoughts?

Ken

My best advice is to listen to your spouse. My wife knows how much Scouting means to me. She sees the smile that comes to my face when I am with "my boys". She has listened to me.

In turn, I do my best to listen to her. I know right now she would not be happy if I took on another job in Scouting. I was recently asked to be Family FOS Chairman for my District. I politely, but firmly, turned it down. Not because it would make my wife mad, but because I promised her I wouldn't. It would have been putting a strain on my family if I were to be gone more than I already am.

I always tell my Scouts to prioritize in this order: Faith, Family, School, then Scouts. If we all do that, everything will work out.

Ken

I kind of like the idea that we are not able to pinpoint the first Scout. Scouting is meant to be for all boys in America. It is good that no troop, city, or state can clearly claim to be "the first". Just as the boy who helped Mr. Boyce that foggy night shall remain nameless, I think it is appropriate that the first American Scout is the same.

Ken