mk9750

Often, our PLC will identify a couple of knots that each Scout must tie before they eat. Sometimes, it is the same knot across all the patrols, sometimes each patrol wants to emphasis a specific knot and the PL chooses something different. But over the course of a year's worth of campouts, all of the major knots, and many of the 2nd and third tier knots, get a going over. Works pretty well for us. I have also seen intra patrol competitions set up like relay races. In the most elaborate, each patrol counted off, and the SPL called "#2!" Whoever was number two started off and were given a knot to tie, that way no one knew which knot they were going to have to do. Mark

I wish I could help with some evidence that it will work, but I have none. But I like the idea. We tried to float the same idea to our PLC, who came close to adopting it (we didn't have the details ironed out like you have about how the "draft" would happen), but it came up a vote short. I think it's a great idea. The only drawback I can see is what I'll bet Bob White brings up in that it might strike a bit of preventing boys to patrol up as they see fit. If that is a concern, I think I'd disagree. Maybe a way to overcome that would be to take it to a complete Troop vote if the PLC approves. That way, the majority of the WHOLE Troop is on board with it. Not normally the way I would do things (the PLC committe should make most decisions), but this one affects everyone for a long time. Please keep us posted on the results. Mark

Laura, Congrats on the shift your Troop is making! A few humble opinions: 1) It sounds to me like you are doing the CC job now. All of the things you describe is 90% of our CC's duties. I guess I shouldn't claim we do it right, but the way we do it, you'd be the acting CC in our Troop! 2) You mentioned that because you could sit on B of R, you shouldn't test boys on Scout Skills. In our Troop, we push boys to seek out 1st class and older Scouts to do this testing. However, the Scoutmaster in our Troop is responsible for approving anyone who signs off requirements, and if you showed knowledge in a topic, you would be approved to test skills on anyone in the Troop other than your own son. As the B of R is not a retest, there should be no conflict. 3)My view is that you very well could do the activities tasks you describe as an ASM (although I still think those are really CC duties). I think spreading the chores around is a good idea, but anyone who has talent for a task and is willing ought to be considered to do so. If you aren't stepping on anyone's toes by doing both, I'd say go for it! Keep on Scouting! Mark

It seems that many Eagle Scout candidates, especially ones pushing 18, have at least one parent nagging him constantly. My son was no exception. Well, as of last night, the nagging is over! My oldest made Eagle! I have been proud of every single guy in our Troop who has made Eagle in the last 7 years. But I was knocked off my feet by how much more intense that pride is now that is is my son. I can't possibly express how I feel. I do know that my son, my family, and especially I owe a tremendous amount to the Boy Scout program. He will be afforded significant opportunities because of his experience in Scouts. And I have had the chance to spend time with him that I'm not sure I otherwise would have becuase of our ties to Scouting. Thanks have to be given to his Scoutmaster, a number of other adult leaders in our Troop, his many friends in Boy Scouts, his family, and particularly his mother. And, I guess I've probably jumped the gun on ending the nagging. I've got a 14 year old Star Scout too! Thanks for letting me brag a bit! Mark

I guess I've got some apoligizing to do... About a year and a half ago, our older Scouts voted to change their name from something pretty traditional to the "Jedis". We didn't want to discourage them doing what they wanted, but a number of adults (notably me) just don't seem to want to accept it. Looks like protecting the traditional names shouldn't be such a big deal to me, judging from the previous posts. I'll try to lighten up. Mark

Thanks Bob! I did know the distinction, but didn't write it that way. But the question was meant to be posed that under those circumstances on a Troop campout, and a Scout gets hurt, could both leaders take the Scout and leave the Troop without adult supervision, knowing that Patrols can be without adults? Certainly, four deep is a much better idea. In our Troop, we can't do a Troop event without at least 8 adults to drive. We always have at least five or six stay. so it shouldn't ever be a problem for us (at least the way we are configured now). I am asking for information only. Also, any opinion on the other solutions? Thanks! Mark

In littlebillie's example, is it permissible to leave the rest of the Troop at the campsite without leadership to provide two deep with the injured Scout? I seem to remember Bob White saying that adult leadership is not a requirement, but if adults are there, there must be at least two. My apoligies if I am wrong Bob. Or - Could another Scout be sent with the adult taking the boy to the hospital (assuming two deep leadership is left at the camp)? If the second solution is not permissible, how do Merit Badge Councelors meet with candidates? I was taught to make sure Scouts met with MB Councelors with a buddy. I was never told that the Councelor needed a buddy too. And lastly, a question (really for my edification only - no agenda). Common sense aside (I know that common sense would prevent me from allowing this to happen), is it permissible for a registered leader to be alone with a scout outside of a scouting situation? For instance - My son has a buddy over that is a Scout. his parents are picking him up at 10:00, but they are late. My wife and son have to be somewhere at 10:30, so they leave me with the boy. This isn't a Scout event, but obviously, he is a Scout and I am a leader. Any opinions? Mark

Fella, I beg to differ. Earrings could harm Scouts. 1) It is a needless procedure that comes with the possiblity of infection, done for vanity. 2) Earrings can be dangerous is some situations, especially situations in which Scouts often find themselves. this is even more true depending on the style of the earring. Every youth athletic association of which I am familiar requires that all atheletes (male and female) remove jewelry, including earrings while participating. 3) Whether fair or unfair, males who wear earrings run the risk of being treated differently than those that do not. This can run the spectrum from no difference, to outright predjudice against the boy who has an earring. Mostly I would guess that the different treatment would be along the lines of having to do more / work harder / overcome the negative impression. I'll agree it may not be fair, but if you are reasonable, you'd have to agree that I'm right. All that being said, when we have been faced with this issue in our Troop, we have banned them from activities (not meetings), had a conversation with the boy about the above, and then let him make his own decision. this just isn't an issue we are willing to alienate our boys over. Also, I am curious why you responded to a thread almost 10 months after your last post, which was the last on the topic? Mark

Glen, A few ideas: Right in your own back yard is Seven Ranges. The Akela Cabin holds @ 28 people. It has a patio off the back that is now sided on three walls. There are usually extra cots outside durung the winter, and there are also picnic tables out there. We have the adults (and usually our older Scouts) sleep either in tents or out on the patio to provide seperate quarters. There is a bathroom indoors, but you have to go out onto the patio to get into the bathroom. The Greater Cleveland Council has a camp way out east named Beaumont. It is SR 45 in Rome, Ohio, I think. They have cabins that include a small 4 person quarter with a door for this kind of problem. There also is a sleeping room and seperate dining area in each cabin (although there is no door between them) that could allow for some seperation, too. The only negetive I've encountered with this camp is that the campmaster treats people with absolute disdain. It seems like it might be just out of council Troops, I'm not sure. But in our experience (and assuming he's still there... It's been three years since we've been back, because of him), it wasn't worth the hassle. Lastly, Canton is a great area to do outdoor winter camping! It is a great skill to have, and one I think we have an obligation to teach to people who live in northern climates. I think you made a point about parents not letting their kids camp if they knew it would be outdoors. With the right preparation and training (which I also think you should provide for the adults, too, so they know that their children are being taught how to camp safely in the cold), and if you make sure that their equipment is appropriate, they will be more ready to handle an emergency situation in the snow and cold. Around here, we have a constant battle to make our Klondike more that Cub Scout Wacky Winter days by changing the emphisis from games and eating indoors to skill events that promote winter camping knowledge. The roadblock we have always incountered is that some Troops around here just don't know how to camp in the winter. Well, that would be a problem. But it could be solved with preparation and planning. Consider adding a real outdoor winter campout to you program next year. Than start reading and learning about what goes into making a winter campout a success, and teach your boys. You'll be glad you did! Lastly, Bob White made the comment that the Youth Protection guidelines must be followed whether you agree with them or not. He is right - I think that in the case of a cabin campout, with two deep leadership, the issue is silly. However, Rules is rules, as they say. I don't want to be put in a position to be asked why I didn't follow the rules if something went wrong. Good luck with your program! Mark

Can I just put my head in the sand and pretend I didn't see this new statistic (5%)? I don't want it to be true! Oh well, I guess the bell can't be unrung. I see nothing in the program that causes the increase except possibly the 1st Class / first year emphasis. It seems to move the time table of everything that comes after it up too much, and incrementally. I see rank requirement as really aquiring basic skills, and these should be learned rather quickly. But as I understand it, BP set his highest rank originally at 1st Class, representing the "all 'round perfect Scout". We've modified that over the years, adding Star, Life and Eagle, but I think it a mistake to have reduced the importance of 1st Class by promoting its attainment within a year. Most boys (maybe I should say the average boy) can't possibly learn all these skills well enough to approach being "perfect" at them in one year. So to make it happen, I think many Troops ease the standards to pass IMO. As an example, demonstrating how a compass works and how to orient a map could be done in a meeting room and allow the requirement to be signed. I'd like to believe however, that there is no way a boy can demostrate his ability to use this skill properly unless he does so outside, probably during a hike. Doing it indoors allows for any individual boy to get this done at any time he wants and can find someone to let him show it. But asking him to demonstrate real proficiencly at it takes a much greater commitment on his, and his tester's part. could this be done quickly, Yes, I guess. Could all of the skills required by learned, practiced, and demonstrated (when demonstration is required) in one year? Seems to me that only an exceptional boy, or one that is motivated beyond the average, could do this. In our Troop, only our best 1 - 2 Scouts each year come close to 1st Class / first year. And in reality, they start in @ April, and gear toward 1st Class by summer camp the following year (early August), so it's more like 1st Class first 16 months for our best. Most of the rest get there by the Winter C of H the year after that (join 4/02, a few 1st Class 8/03, most 1st Class by 2/04). From there, the track diverges greatly, although almost all of the 8 (soon to be 9, I hope - my son!) Eagles we have had since I began with the Troop 7 years ago finish Eagle between 17 and 18. And the boys like it that way. Whenever our guys encounter much younger Eagles (14 - 15), they almost always come away feeling that the boy doesn't exibit what Eagle means to them. At JLT, Eagle staff members have to be taught to lash and cook. Few seem to know how to do a presentation, particularly how to prepare one. "Leading" to them seem to be an excersise of their lungs, not their wits. Our experience is that young Eagles are not good Eagles (that is a generalization, but one we believe is mostly true). Our program is set up to provide the young guys the oppurtunity to learn, test and earn all of the rank requirements in their first 18 months. Some do it a little faster, most take a little longer. It also allows for then to work as instructors to the younger guys (improving many skills, including mentoring and the Scout skill itself) for the next 18 months. And both as a part of monthly programs, and seperate from them, the older guys work on common activities that usually lead to MBs (rifelry, Kayaking, Climbing, 1st aid, etc.), and they work on other MBs of their liking on their own. It's a natural progression that has worked very well for us. Even the guys who don't make Eagle are thrilled with the program. We've had a couple of guys transfer out of the Troop because they wanted to advance faster. Although we would never prevent this, we refused to aid it by changing the overall program to make it happen. We've found out in every case that it was a parent who wasn't patient enough to allow their son to go through the complete program. And every boy who transfered has said after they made Eagle they think is was a mistake to transfer from where they were having fun and seeing progress. Well, another long one! I hope that everyone attributes my long windedness to passion, and not just being a blowhard! But to steal a line from someone who is quickly becoming my friend (at least on line), "I love this Scouting stuff! (I promise - That's the last time I'll steal it!). Mark

First let me try to describe my embarassment when I reread my post and saw how consistantly I mispelled DISCRIMINATE. Never mind, suffice to say I am embarassed. ML - I am not a lawyer. I don't recall you saying whether you are or not, but you appear to have a deeper legal knowledge than do I. Please tell me what the law defines and religious discrimination. I am not being antagonistic. I want to know. But until you can help me with that, I still believe that if anything, IMO, the BSA is discriminating against atheists. And as BW points out, not all discrimination is illegal, or immoral (if it were immoral, I'd like to believe that the BSA would not do so). As an analogy (and despite a comment previous, this IS an anology), I discriminate by prefering NY strip steaks to porterhouse, I discriminate by prefering blonds to brunettes (although my brunette wife will be offended to hear that), and I discriminate by prefering to asociate with people of high moral character (by MY definition) rather than low life scum. I believe none of these are illegal, and I also believe none are immoral. It is my right as a citizen of this planet to discriminate in this manner. And none of this would disqualify me for a HUD grant. Let's face it - You are promoting discrimination against groups you believe discriminate. If it is an absence of discrimination you fight for, than allow yourself to accept the government not to discriminate against certain groups, among which are the BSA. Unless for some reason discrimating against atheists is religious discrimination (which until I see some clause that says so, I don't think it is, and, even if shown evidence, I'd say it was ridiculous), then the BSA has done nothing wrong here. I am mad at myself that I've allowed myself to be drawn into such a waste of time as debating this. Although I will monitor this in case I can be enlightened, I'm done posting on this thread. Mark

Thanks all to the great comments. Eagle74 hit it right on the head. This Eagle recognizes the importance of the accomplishment, and what it took (both his own effort and the help of others) to acheive this. I think his attitude is that he IS an Eagle Scout now, he doesn't need a big ceremony to prove it. Kind of like being just as married if you have a few friends as witnesses instead of a 300 guest gala event. I like the idea of at least doing a ceremony during a Troop meeting though. Although we make a big deal at regular C of H for ranks earned in the last months, we pretty much just hand Rank badges out with a quick congratulations and applause at the end of our Troop meetings. We could at least do a 10 - 15 minute ceremony during the meeting, and make sure his family is there. The Eagle, the SM and I are going to try and get together this weekend to come to some decision about this. I think that will be the suggestion I make. Thank you, thank you all. Mark

Is it being too simplistic to say that the BSA does not descrimnate based on religion, they don't have any care what religion you are, they just require a belif in God? That isn't religious descrimination in my book. They aren't descriminating against anyone belonging to a specific religion. If you want to say they descriminate against atheists, well that's another discussion. Athiesms isn't a religion. The BSA does not practice religious descrimination. Mark

We allow parents to be MB councelors for their sons. We handle the potential questions about favoritism and such right when a parent approaches about being a councelor. We explain our advancement standards, we impress them that it is not in any boy's interest to be cheated out of the full benefit of the effort, and that we will not allow boys to work with that councelor again if there appears to be anything amiss (I have no idea how we could enforce that if we ever needed to, but it makes the point). Although this has been said about me, I think it is far more true about others in our Troop. We have a parent who is phenominal when it comes to certain MBs, like the Citizenship badges. Anyone doing these badges with him enjoy them more, and learn more, than if they went to anyone else I can think of (and I councel these also). It isn't fair to ask a boy to forego this experience just because they share the same diner table. KS is again right on the nose about it being valuable for boys to get a flavor of other Councelors. We make this happen by making sure none of our adults is registered to do First aid or Emergency Preparedness. That way, everyone has to use an outside Councelor for at least one, maybe two required MBs. And although many of our parents councel multiple badges, no one does more than three required badges. Even if (and it hasn't happened yet) a parent went easy on his son, there are still at least 9 more required badges he would have to EARN. Mark

We have a boy in our Troop that has earned Eagle. Between sports, music, a "home and home" visit with a foreign exchange student, major school projects, and preparation to leave for the Military academy, he cannot come up with a time convenient to do a Court of Honor. He has also talked about not doing one because he just isn't comfortable with the spotlight being directed soley on him. In our Troop, the celebration of Eagle Scout is a major event. We all feel as though we acknowledge the role the boy's family played in the achievement, as well as the role the Troop had in his suceess. While talking to him about it, I tried to stress how important this celebration is to others, even if it isn't important to him. Just like I would expect an Eagle Scout to react, he understands that and is willing to accept it, even if it means some discomfort to him. But we just can't seem to find a spot on the calender to make it happen. Has anyone ever heard of Not having a Court of Honor for an Eagle Scout? Could his recognition come in a simple ceremony at a Troop meeting? I asked him if we can do it at our normal C of H, but he isn't able to make it because of a conflict with sports. Any suggestions? Mark

Barry, As usual, you're right on the money. As a matter of fact, I tend to use this "soft" approach when I need to make a point rather than trying to be the bulldozer. My dad use to say you can get more flies with a spoon full of honey than a whole barrel full of vinegar. Matter of fact, my response is an example of using this technique, I think. I worked hard at phrasing everything to make it the son's responsiblity to try to work things out. It wasn't until the end I tied everything together to make my point that it often is more beneficial to let the boy himself try to solve the problem first. But in the end, your ultimate solutions might be appropriate... An adult sit down with the SM and / or CC. Going to the CC doesn't often factor into my thinking, because ours is VERY good at the paperwork part of running a Troop committee, but has actively said that the people part of the job is for someone else. Glad to have your view. And to skerns123, listen to what Eagledad, Bob White, Korea Scouter, and so many others here say. You won't often go wrong. They knows their stuff! Mark

123, Welcome to ther forum! Sorry to say your son's experience happens all too frequently, particularly the leadership issue. Positions like Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leader should be voted on, and your son's Troop and Patrol should have established criteria for being eligible. If they do, you son should either respect them and work to meet the criteria, or work to change the rules in a Scout - like manner. But if someone is being arbitrary about the rules (if he is being told "you can't run because you haven't been to the minimum number of campouts"), have him ask for that rule in writing. If it can't be produced, I would certainly have him request a Scoutmaster conference to settle this. I would however caution against you as a parent getting involved until it is absolutely necesary to protect his interest in Scouts. More harm can be done if he thinks, or others in the Troop think, that you fixed the problem for him. It is a boy - run program, or at least should be. Let your boy handle it. Giving your son the chance to fix a situation, or get the information that allows him to understand and accept it, will do more toward allowing him to grow into a man than if he had the position all along. Good luck to you, your son, and your Troop!! Mark

We do Popcorn, (1) car wash, (1) spring clean up, where we sell our patrols to rake leaves, mulch etc. If the boys decide they want to do anything particularly expensive, the decide how they are going to pay for it. sometimes they do fund raisers over and above these. If the money raised by the 5 - 6 events you do covers all of the costs of Scouting for the boys, I'd say good for you! Actually, that would be assuming the boys are able to do the connect between their work and the benfit they get. If they understand that the more work we do, the more fun we can have, I think your Troop is doing well. Mark

We are going through this right now with my son. As others have said, our Council provides a form letter (for convenience only) that an Eagle candidate gives to all of the people listed as references on his application. The Eagle candidate asks each of these people to write a letter of recomendation, and forward it directly to the Council office. When the application arrives, a file is started for that boy. The registrar double checks to make sure all of the advancement history matches their records, then puts the application in the file. Once a minimum of three letters come in for that boy, the registrar contacts the District Advancement Chair, who contacts the Scoutmaster to arrange a convenient time for all to hold a BOR. If more letters come in in the meantime, they are included in the file given to the District Advancement Chair. I have been on Eagle BORs often (8 - 10 times). Because of this process, we have always had letters to review. I don't know what would happen if there weren't any. Mark

I am overweight. I am not a role model when talking about good health and nutrition. I choose to be overweight (becuase I choose not to lose weight). Although I will stipulate that there may be a genetic propensity for obesity, I will not accept any reason other than it is my fault for deciding to eat things I shouldn't, too much of everything, and not get enough excercise. I also smoked, until 7 1/2 years ago. I chose to smoke. No one made me. I wasn't a role model when i was smoking, either. Should I resign because I am overweight? Maybe I should. I hope not. I want to believe I am a value despite my weight. But if I were told that my weight encouraged kids to eat more, or gave them the impression that it was OK to do so, I think I would resign. By smoking in front of kids, you do send the message that it is acceptable. But rather than quit Scouting, maybe you should quit smoking, and I should lose wait. Maybe THAT'S the best way we can be role models. I am willing to try, and report my progress here. Any one else who is addicted to food or nicotine want to join?

I just had a conversation about this last night with a parent of a Webelo visiting our Troop. Seems the Webelo Den Leader turned us down on our offer to provide a Den Chief based on the behavior and attitude of "the vast majority" of the Den Chiefs at Cub Scout day camp the previous summer. He was a Den Leader at summer camp, and spent far more time correcting the Boy Scouts than he did the Cub Scouts. When I helped out with day camp, I remember the same thing. Could it be that bad experiences like this are tainting a good idea? Mark

KS, Your perception about the impact of a tragedy like this I think is correct. I noticed it in myself. I found myself pausing, saying a prayer, thanking these brave men and women for what they have done, and basically going on with my life. When I caught myself doing this, I was ashamed. However, on a radio talk show today, I heard the host describing the same reaction. I started thinking my attitude, as bad as it is, may not be so abnormal. How sad. Mark

Bob, I just posted in the Den Chief thread, but most of my comments there hold here, too. At least in our situation, we go way above and beyond to extend our hand for the packs to help us cross boys over. Because of lack of knowledge, or desire, or burnout, or fear of the unkown, we get practically no help from the packs. "Who are your Webelos Den Leaders?" was asked in September of 4 Cub Packs in our area. we asked so that we can send them calenders, keep them advised of activities that are geared to them, and to send out invitations to a campout we do specifically with them in mind. Two said "we don't know yet", one said leave us alone, we'll come get you when we want you", and the last said "none of our guys will be crossing to boy Scouts. The parents all say you guys do too much dangerous stuff". I agree with you that Cub Leaders are to be admired. They do very difficult work, and those that do it well are special. But my experience is that few understand their role in the seemless process of transitioning Cubs into Boy Scouts. And my basis for this statement is that any good Troop knows that it is only sustained with a constant flow of new Scouts. They aught to be working hard to get Cubs into Boy Scouts. If not, they will soon wither on the vine. But Cub Leaders see the end of their journey as the day the boys cross the bridge. "If I get them to AOL, and point them to the bridge, my job is done." This just doesn't get the job done. Sorry to disagree with you, but our experience in almost exactly 180 degrees to what you propose. Mark

For those in Cub Packs looking for Den Chiefs, please contact me! We almost might be willing to pay air flight costs to and from your area! Seriously, we have identified, as best we can, what the need for Den Chiefs for the 4 area packs we draw from. We determine what boys might be qualified and interested, and approach them asking them to consider. Our Council does a Den Chief training, but for some odd reason, it is in Late November, which is too late for this year, and too early for next year. Se we do our own training. Our Scoutmaster never really appreciated the Cub program, so he leaves that training effort to two of us who had a blast as Den Leaders in Cubs. Once trained, we try to contact pack leaders to make these eager leaders available. On another thread a long time ago, I spent a long post complaining about how difficult this process is for us. Pack leadership changes, leaders either don't understand the benefit of a Den Chief, or distrust our motives. We try SO HARD to provide this service to the packs we serve. I admit, we do it mostly for our own benefit (leadership development first, recruitment second). But if we didn't see it as a benefit to the Pack, we wouldn't bother. But we get almost no one to take us up on the offer. When they do, it is often too late into the year for them to be much more help than setting up and tearing down after meetings. Our boys get frustrated preparing for the position, just to sit idly by with no den, or being a slave. I complained that at least in our Troop, we definately go beyond half way trying to make this happen, but we get NO help from the packs. This is still true. I'd love to find the magic pill to make this work, but it just doesn't in our area. We are going to try one different idea next year: We are going to try to arrange for a match at the end of the Cub program year in April - May - June, so that everyone is set to go in September. Short of that working, we are clueless (and I can prove it!!!) as to how to work this. As I am fond of saying, Den Chief appears to be a great idea that doesn't work. Mark

Bob, I answer with only very limited understanding of the role of UC. I was asked to accept a UC position last spring, but decided to decline as I felt I would not be able to fulfill my current unit duties and what I understood UCing to be, and I wasn't willing to do both half assed. It is sad that good volunteers are not easy to come by for this position, because it could be valuable, but when I see the kind of people that have agreed in our area, I kind of wish more were like me and said no. All that being said, I think your idea makes a lot of sense. We use a similiar method in our Troop. Troop Guide for new Scouts, then APLs are specifically in charge of mentoring boys until they are 1st Class. Mentoring to us means being available for help if asked, and watching out for signs of serious problems, like lack of attendance, lack of advancement, etc., and if anything is wrong, approaching and asking if help is needed. We also identify older Scouts who are strong in each of the Scout skills, and direct boys who need help to those Scouts. So if you're having a tough time getting past lashing, everyone knows to go to Pete, who could lash the Empire State Building if he needed to. Secondly, I would add that whether a change was made or not, EVERY new unit Leader should be introduced to his Unit Commissioner, with a 20 sit down explaining the purpose and benefits, within weeks of taking over. At least in Boy Scout Troops, who tend to have more stable adult leadership, and by nature are a bit more staunch in defending their methods. If a SM has been with a Troop for 5 - 8 years, he believes he knows how to handle everything, and just won't take any help from the outside. A new SM, introduced early on to the benefits of a close relationship to his UC might use to service more, and before disaster was emminent. Mark