Mike Long

Um folks, those of you who suggest that this be worked out within the unit may I point out that Scoutmom stated that the leader in question WAS trained? I don't know about you but in every training I have been in it was clearly stated the BSA rules regarding alcohol. This isn't a matter of innocent ignorance, this is a matter of willfull violation. Not only that the unit leader and those involved were not only unresponsive but hostile. My opinion would be different if the CM's response had been to at least listen. The response indicates an unwillingness to discuss the issue. Get them gone, quickly.

I'm reading this and my response is, Ummmm....wow? I'm with Bob, get them out of there.

I just can't see getting that worked up over one trip that went wrong. Ah well, some folks look for excuses to complain or are easy to set off. I would think that several successes woulf offset the occasional foul-up and your good record would be enough to satisfy the troop. I think the big thing to do is sit down with the PLC and Troop Committee and do a post-mortem of the trip and create some action items of good and bad things that happened and re-visit who does what. Be sure your youth leaders understand your thought process anf why's of you decisions. Someday they will be making these same decisions and it will help them to make them. Make it a learning experience. What really matters is that everyone is safe and they all learn from the experience for next time.

I'd like to clarify. I only have a problem with the suggestion to picket, write letters to the editor, invole people that have no reason to be involed (mayor, governor ect.), and generally work to remove support from the troop as was suggested earlier in this thread. That in my book is harassment and is unnecessary. The problem is they didn't tell ScoutParent up front about a policy that they can't even produce any evidence that existed prior to this situation. I don't have a problem with persueing a legal course of action as a last resort.

Part of the responsabilities of the Scoutmaster to to ensure the delivery of a safe and effective program. You are well within your rights to call extra meetings to prepare for trips that you don't feel the troop is prepared for. You are also well within your rights to cancel trips you don't think the troop is prepared for, especially if there are potentially life threatening situations involved. Safety first. The more thing change the closer you get to d-day the far greater the chances something will go wrong. If there is a massive flurry of last minute changes consider cancelling because you are not prepared. For us the Scoutmaster OR tour leader are the only ones who can cancel a trip. They are the individuals directly responsable for the trip. Not only that, I would have a BIIIIIIIIIG problem with the CC going around me to keep a trip alive that I killed because of safety and prepardness issues. Especially if the CC wasn't even going. If I kill a trip I will not attend it, period. As far as the people who want to remove you as SM. One has to ask what else do they have an issue with? I can't imagine that they would get so angry over one trip. There must be something more there than that. Next time. 1. Was this a scheduled trip weeks in advance? Be sure you have scheduled trips published well in advance including as much detail as you can get. It sounds like the who, what, when, where, how much's were not covered until the last minute. If they were then I'm sorry for my misunderstanding. 2. Be prepared. use the meeting before your trip to finalize plans. You know adult supervision, tour permits, permission slips, attendance roster, gear, food ect. If the details are not settled by then (or sooner) then it doesn't happen. 3. Troop gear is the domain of the Quartermaster. Where was he in this? 4. Be sure the committee knows who has the authority to cancel trips. Also get some help in preparing for trips from now on, like a transportation coordinator, ASM assigned to the Quartermaster ect. 5. Send out a letter to the families notifing them that every adult is an unpaid volunteer also you expect everyone involved with this troop to set a good example and a scout is courteous. A simple "we are sorry but we really can't make it to this meeting." is sufficient answer.

Definately talk to your council lawyers. Correct me if I'm wrong gang but aren't our units non-profit organizations? Why create a new organization if you already have one. Personally, that seems like a huge liability. It would be very cool to have your own camp but I'm not sure I would want the extra work.

I don't know if revocation is possible. I've heard that it was but in any event definately let the Scoutmaster and know about it and let him deal with it. If it's not to your liking well I guess the next step is the Troop Committee.

Oz, ALWAYS fight for the win-win. It's the hardest and most complicated road but the most rewarding. I meant not go on the trip not get out of the troop. I would definately keep working with him in the course of the regular troop activities but I would not put a capital trip at risk. I'm not so sure about this being something the boys can handle without major adult help. Most kids don't have the wisdom to rise above and try to see long term situation and repercussions.

I hate contracts. This is scouting not a contractual arrangement. Honor needs to count somewhere. If no one else has behaviour issue then I see no need to make them sign anything. I'd simply tell the Scout and his family that his behaviour is unacceptable, has been unacceptable and will no longer be tolerated. Either his behaviour improves or he will not be allowed to attend your trip even if his parents accompany him. You must consider the rest of the troop first. This is a capitol trip and the last thing you want to do is give someone a chance to make the trip miserable for yourself and the other Scouts. If he goes and makes it rough on everybody the whole troop has a bad time and loses. Also you will be less likely to do a trip like that again, once again the troop loses. I rather confine the losing to one individual.

I agree completely. So far I'm with you 100%. If you need to persue legal action fine but the suggestion of protests and such sickens me.

Well, after a one week abscence my Scout showed up in uniform last night. We got along famously, like nothing ever happened. I'm very grateful to not lose him.

Ok fine, if y'all won't say it I will. Harrassment and intimidation are not acceptable. Removing the scouting program from boys by making it impossible for their troop to operate is unacceptable. Slander and libel is unacceptable. And a scouter advocating the above is also unacceptable. If you really feel the need to go the legal route then consider the damage that will be inflicted on EVERYONE involved and the lessons this teaches everyone. Most importantly the boys who are quite happy with their troop as it is. Is any amount of money worth destroying a troop over? There is such a thing as diminishing returns. ScoutParent have you considered asking them what if your son stays? What about asking if the money can be transferred to a friend of your son that is staying in the troop or asking that the money be used for camperships for scouts in need. Maybe a donation to the Charter Org. as a thank you for you son's years with the troop. My best advice is to keep doing what you are doing. Simply making your case in a reasonable, non-threatening and polite manner again and again. You have a reasonable arguement and reasonable people will eventually see your point and work with you. I personally think it is unreasonable and unscoutlike to expect members of your unit to abide by rules that are unpublished and I would side with you in this matter. You might want to ask the Committee and Scoutmaster to look in the Scout handbook and see what it says about fair play.

Ok Dan I checked it out. (page 152 Scoutmasters handbook) Yes it does say that a uniform is not required to be a scout but then it goes on to tell of several ways to get uniforms and encourage boys to wear them. The general message I get from this is that if a scout can't afford a uniform he can't be kicked out because of it but if he has a uniform he is expected to wear it properly and proudly. It looks to be a reminder to Scout leaders to be sensitive to the economic means of some of our scout families. If uniforms were optional the Boy Scout handbook would say so as that is the only scout book most boys read but instead the handbook says in very clear language to get a uniform and properly wear it. Economics are not the issue here it is a senior scout who refuses to obey the rules of the troop.

"it was like your own Dad was there!" What an honor to be thought of that way. Keep on keeping on.

Wow, the millpond looks like the Okeefenokee swamp. Unfortunately most of the Okee is in flames right now. Ah well, circle of life.

Thanks Rooster. Well let me just say that if you have an adult interacting with the boys one on one outside of scouting you need to look very closely at what is happening. If it makes you edgy then trust your instincts and act.

Rooster you are probably right about the legal angle, actually I know you are right. Much the same I saw this happen as a scout amd it almost happened to me as a scout and I'm extremely sensitive to it and sometimes I react excessively. But yes I think you are right about that going too far.

I agree with Quixote about the cost issue and his secario but cost is not an issue here and even if it was the troop repeatedly states that if a Scout can't afford a uniform then one will be provided and we also have an experienced unform bin that anyone is welcome to dip into at anytime. The Scout was a PL (if I remember correctly) and Life when I assumed leadership. He's been stagnant for my entire tenure. He also happens to be my past SPL. He wore the uniform off and on while SPL (although not always completely) and was asked each time to wear it completely. As soon as his term was over he quit wearing the uniform. SM conference? How about 2 in 2 weeks?

If a Scout leader preys on a child it is almost always outside of a scouting event. Youth protection when used properly makes abuse next to impossible unless there is collusion between adult leaders. (an extremely frightening thought.) What predators do is build up a comfort level with the parents through the scouting program and then invite the victim out to do something (movie, campout, look at my old patches, ect.) outside of scouting. Everyone asks "why did the parents allow this." The parents allowed it because they had developed a comfort level with the adult. They couldn't imagine the adult to be a predator. This also makes it less likely that the child will seek help. Think about it, you are a kid and someone that everyone else you know thinks very highly of abuses you. Well, you were prepared for a sicko to attempt this not a scout leader you trust and respect. Week after week you hear praise for the leader and it's going to make a child think that the problem is with the child and not the adult. What your troop needs to do is to take youth protection one step further. Closely watch interactions with Scouts and adult leaders outside of scouting. Make it clear to the committe that if you are a scout leader in your troop, that the troop expects you to observe youth protection in ALL of their dealings with your scouts in and out of scout functions. Scout- I'm going camping with Mr. X next weekend. Scouter- Really sounds like fun. Who all is going? Scout- Mr. X, me and Joe. Scouter- Any other adults going? Scout- No. Scouter should see a BIG RED FLAG! Talk to Mr. X along with at least two members of your committee. If you don't get the answers you want contact Council. If your troop does not discuss this in committee you are in big danger of this happening to your troop.

Well I'll have to look that up but here is my reasoning regarding what is stated in the Boy Scout handbook. Page 12- "...Old or new, wear your uniform proudly whenever you are taking part in Scout activities. ..." I see nothing about should, ought or you might want to in that statement. It tells the Scout to wear the uniform in definate language with no amiguity. That quote is not taken out of context, there is nothing on that page that gives the scout the option of not wearing a uniform. Page 13 describes the official scout uniform (tan shirt and all) nothing else is granted the title of uniform. There is no Class A or Class B language so anything other than what is descibed in not a uniform. There is also more definate languge here in the form of "...Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor, and most other indoor functions. ..." Once again, this is definate language instructing the scout when to wear the uniform. The only optional language here is the following "The uniform should also be worn during special outdoor occasions, such as Scout shows, flag ceremonies, and special times at summer camp." Now there is some abmiguity but when taken in the context of the entire passage it's intent is clear and that is to wear the uniform. The last sentence on the page is the only place I have seen that tells the Scout when he is allowed to not wear a uniform. "For outdoor activities, Scouts may wear troop or camp T-shirts with the Scout pants of shorts." Definate statements in a textbook or handbook are to be taken as fact and are tantamount to rules. When a science book says the earth revolves around the sun it is not a suggestion that the earth might want to consider revolving around the sun but may take alternate thursdays off. One of my Assistants brought the issue up to the Roundtable and they agree with me 100%. My Council agrees with me 100%. Every Scoutmaster I spoke to agrees with me 100%. You are one of three who disagree and that includes my challenge scout. Can we all be wrong and you right? Could be, it's happened before. Questioning our firm held beliefs should make them stronger or make us realize they are false and in need of correction. Dan I see nothing to support your position but I will check out the Scoutmaster's handbook and will post back with my thoughts. I do appreciate your input, thanks.

Thanks for the input and support. My dad was my Scoutmaster, I knew exactly what I was getting into. Matter of fact he and I had a little "Scoutmaster conference" before I took the job. Made me feel like I was 15 again. It was a good feeling too, made me miss being a Boy Scout. My demands? Well, all I am asking is that the Troop obey the uniform rules as printed on pages 12 and 13 of the hanbook, nothing more and absolutely nothing less. I see nothing that indicates that Troops even have an option to do anything other than what the book states in regard to uniforming. Just because other troops choose to disobey the rules doesn't mean that it's ok for us to continue the cycle. I won't be a part of it. My big delimma now is that I have recieved several calls from other Scouts and parents and all they want to know is if I will "kick him out." Apparently the majority wants this and that disturbs me as I believe in redemption and giving the boys the chance to be forgiven and make it right. It almost seems like blood-lust to me. Sounds like it's time for another SM minute on forgiveness and charity.

Oh yeah, as far as bear bagging on a float trip see LVs thread titled "Bear bagging smarter" in the camping & high adventure section. Brilliant technique.

I was going to respond earlier but Eisely is on a roll and frankly he's stating just what I was plus more. I'll defer to his postings. Good stuff Eisely, I'm getting some great info here too.

Before I start let me state that I agree completely that we need to utilize positive reinforcment as opposed to punishments in Scouting and we should not "kick out" boys. Here is the situation. A couple of years ago I took over the position of Scoutmaster of our troop. The troop was in sad shape. Uniforms were not being worn, the Scoutmaster was planning the program completety, the committee didn't exist, the junior leaders were in name only. In my opinion this was not a scout troop this was a camping club that aped the BSA. Eventually I took over as Scoutmaster. The first point of business was to establish the committee. At the first real committee meeting in years I point blank told them that if I am to take on this position I then the Troop WILL follow the BSA program. One of my sticking points was that the Troop will wear the Scout uniform correctly to all Troop meetings. In the past the troop wore the uniform only at the first meeting of the month and the troop T-shirt to all others. In reality that meant that the boys never wore the uniform and sometimes wore the T. The committee agreed. In the following year or so I have been constantly reminding boys to wear the uniform. Reminding junior leaders that they set the example and it is part of their job to wear the uniform. I have had two groups of webelos join the troop since then and all you need to do is remind them and they comply. My problem is with some of the older boys who came up in the old system. I finally had enough of cajoling these guys and put my foot down. I told them that it is inexcusable that they continue to ignore the rules of the troop and the BSA. I pointed out pages 12 and 13 of the Scout handbook where is says in no uncertain terms to wear the uniform and the inportance of it. I pointed out the eight fundamental methods of Scouting that #8 was the uniform. I told them that these items are not negotiable. If you want to be a scout then you abide by the rules of Scouting and not attempt to wiggle around them. Troops that do this are not scout troops they are sad parodies of the BSA. If you don't like the rule obey it and try to get it changed or quit. I also told them that I don't appreciate them teaching the younger scouts to be disobedient by their example especially from Life and Star Scouts. Of course I got the fifth degree in return and the the crux of their arguement was that they wanted to go back to the unScoutlike (my description) way it was. If not then they will quit if they must wear the uniform. Frankly I don't want these guys to quit, but I also won't allow that cancerous attitude to infect the rest of the troop. The ringleader asked to approach the Troop Committee and ask that the uniform issue be changed back. I was ok with that as I thought it might be helpful that the committee help him to understand that this isn't just Scoutmaster Long's rule but the BSA's rule and let them approach the committee. Some of my assistants thought that this was a bad idea and that I should have told them to obey or get out. At the committee meeting the discussion got heated and it became obvious to me that this was turning into a battle of wills between him and me judging by the character assassination on me he attempted when it became obvious that his arguement was pointless. We voted and he was overwhelmingly defeated with only one vote in his favor. (It disturbs me that even one adult voted his way as I thought this is something the committee can not choose to do and that this in my mind was simply an excercise in showing the boy how wrong he is.) After the meeting he continued his combative arguement with anyone who would listen also stating that he would speak to the district and council...ad nauseum. I intend to speak with him and apologise that the meeting got heated and ask him if we can both move forward together and work for the betterment of the troop, and let this be a lesson for the both of us. Here is my concern. I know this boy and it is highly likely that he is going to become a problem. I think he is going to do what he can to disrupt and fight the uniform and in the end force the myself and the committee to remove him from our membership for the betterment of the Troop. I do not want to remove the boy as I consider it a personal failure. Suggestions, comments, critisims, help?

Congratulations, your Scouts truly understand what it is to be a Scout. I think you've accomplished the ultimate goal of Scouting.