BadenP

You guys comparing your scouting experience of 20-30 years ago to scouting of today are out of touch with the reality and youth of today. The world today is very different from when we were kids as Beavah was trying to point out in his posts. I can see the full uniform for formal occassions or jamborees, but for weekly meetings? You guys notice that in offices today the office workers,managers,and executives rarely wear a suit anymore, the tie is considered obsolete. The only time I wear a suit anymore is to weddings and funerals. So you ex military and those living in the good old days types, look around you the world is a very different place today and is not going to go back in time to the dress codes of yesteryear.

.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

That city attorney probably trying to make a name for himself to get votes in the next election, this really isn't about gay rights it is nothing more than a political game Merlyn no matter what you may think. The only losers here once again are the kids, doesn't that make you proud Merlyn.

shortridge you really are a real P.I.A., you read what you want into everything, but since you have never been trained in Venturing or ever led a crew you have nothing credible to say on this topic, nuff said.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

In my district I don't know of one troop that is ever in complete uniform, almost all of them wear jeans with the shirt, and I have only seen a small handful wearing the new uniform, most of them adults. In district events many scouts wear a troop tshirt and jeans or shorts. So shortridge you wore the red beret, now I see why you and OGE have so much in common, lol.

yes shortridge I did say that and it is true, however many of the crews who solely concentrate on their speciality to the exclusion of everything else usually go under in short order. If you want the crew to stay viable and grow they need to at least explore the variety of activities, my crew years ago started with ten members today and for the last five years the crew numbers have been sixty or more. This is because they let themselves explore a variety of experiences, not just one. I still say a crew that has a math/science speciality and never tries anything else will die on the vine rather quickly. In spite of what you and that old curmudgeon OGE might think Venturing has a tie to the outdoors as much as boy scouts do. A troop could do all their activities indoors, locally, or in a local park without really going anywhere but what kind of troop program would that be and how long do you think it would last? Venturing crews fail on a much higher average than other units because most scouters do not really understand the program and because having only one limited speciality is a receipe for failure. Sea scouts thrive because their program is diverse and has many different activities/skills, most of them outdoors, the teens get to experience, a Venturing crew needs to do the same if they want to be successful and survive more than a year. I hope that clarifies it a little better for you.

shortridge it seems to me that you not only do not understand Venturing but your scouting knowledge is sorely lacking, lol. Have a nice day.

IMHO it is not your job to go in and try to save this poorly run pack, it probably has been this way for years and you will not change the leaders MO no matter how hard you try. Stop beating your head against the wall and run don't walk to another pack in your area and let your son have some great memories too.

I am sorry Mr. Bacchus but your argument is illogical and does not compute. You still are not getting it, please reread my posts carefully, and what they talk about in WB21 is not germane to this discussion. Thank you.

That is just the point gwd why should some one who buys this $40 shirt have to fix anything, why can't it just be done right in the first place?

bacchus You missed the whole point here, no one is saying a math science award is a bad thing, but this is scouting not math or science camp. There are clubs at every school for both of these subjects where teens can study and socialize with others who want to totally focus on these areas. But this is scouting which does and should have a totally different focus and while aspects of science and math do play a part in many of its activities they are not the central focus of any of its programs. Scouting is a unique program with a unique focus, the outdoors and to think otherwise is just not true. If you want to be in scouting you need to embrace its founding ideology and purpose and not try to change it into something scouting was never meant to be.

emb021 & OGE Thats the real question isn't it, "What are the true values of scouting?" , IMHO Venturing should never totally exclude the outdoor experience, it doesn't have to be the focus BUT it should be part of the program. Excluding the outdoors entirely, again IMHO,weakens the crew and those are the type of crews that seem to fail in the first year. Venturing is part of scouting and we need to instill more than just leadership skills if Venturing is going to survive. My crew was recently on a weekend camping trip with five other crews, one reinactment crew, two church youth group crews, a sailing crew, and two outdoor crews. On that trip all the specialties were forgotten and the teens all worked together as one crew planning a hike, a raft trip, and a small mountain climb. That in my opinion is the true nature and potential of Venturing and represents the true values of scouting. Many of these teens had never camped before, but ALL of them had a wonderful time and are looking forward to the next trip together. Now say what you want about what the book says Venturing should be but leaving out the outdoors entirely I don't think was ever the intent of the ones who created the program originally. Having a focus is good but at the exclusion of everything else that is the backbone of scouting is just plain WRONG, IMHO.

Maybe China should supply the twist ties with their cheap quality shirts so you can wear your patches, for pete sakes it amazes me you all put up with that crap. I think you should boycott the chinese uniform entirely and send a clear message to National.

You guys, I have nothing against science or computers but this Venturing award is nothing more than a ploy by National to bring teens who have had little to no interest in scouting into trying Venturing, which IMHO is an insult to the Venturing program. This has NOTHING to do with boy scout merit badges, even though I really wonder the relevance to scouting of several to many of them. I can just visualize the new Venturing crew now, hornrimmed glasses, pocket protectors, and computer notebooks ready to take on the perils of the outdoors, lol. What is National thinking?

shortridge you need to get a sense of humor dude, this type of award has no place in Venturing or the BSA. Second, Mazzuca has been trying to find a way to get the kids who hate the outdoors involved in scouting, this is his first attempt. Third you don't have to see the requirements to know who this award is really aimed towards. Just continue to watch how scouting continues to change during the Mazzucca reign and it all will become clear to you.

A nerd is a nerd is a nerd anyway you slice it, lol. Not everyone who works with computers is a nerd nolesrule but in the case of this new bronze award, BINGO!

All I can say is that National has given all of us the rare opportunity to pay Big Bucks for Chinese Junk, thank you Mr. Mazzuca. The new uniform can be summed up in two words, IT SUCKS!

It is the end of Venturing as we know it, lol. Well at least its a speciality to attract all the computer nerds out there into scouting, one of Mazzuca's goals. Really though what the heck is National thinking. What's next a merit badge for playing Wii games or a new boy scout rank Nerd scout. Mazzuca seems determined to undermine the very foundation of scouting just to attract more numbers. Oh well many scouters seemed to hate Venturing anyway now National has given them yet another reason. I can imagine BP, Hillcourt, Seton all in heaven talking about who is going to go and beat some sense into those idiots at National. When will this madness all end?

shortridge I do not believe you really understand the focus of venturing as many others in scouting not directly involved with the program. Venturing is not an "in the box" type of program where every crew does exactly the same thing, there are a huge selection of options to choose from, and for many scouters thats makes them uncomfortable and leads them to think crews are not organized, which is just not true. Venturing is not a one program fits all type of unit, unlike cubs and boy scouts.

I agree with Beavah, it is not the age grouping thats the problem its the radical change in the environment these kids grow up in today. Like it or not these kids are used to a fast paced techno driven lifestyle which runs contrary to the BSA program. Eamonn is right when he states that when boys get older and start driving, aka dating, scouting goes out the window, that is why a strong COED program is so vital if you want to keep these teens actively involved. Eamonn is very wrong however when he states that venturing crews run by former scoutmasters fair better, well maybe in his area but not in the rest of the country. Crews should never be run like a boy scout troop that is a surefire receipe for failure, and if venturing is failing in your area many times it is because former scoutmasters are running it. Older teens need to have more control and say over their own program than many adults will allow and that program needs to be coed if you want it to survive more than a year or two. The crew should have a primary focus but not limited to just that speciality, variety is the spice of life. Sidenote: As far as cubs is concerned webelos should be a one year program, period.

John if I am ever in KC I will look you up, you are indeed extremely fortunate to have such a talented visionary as your roundtable commish. Maybe he/she could give classes or create a dvd to train other RT commissioners how to do it right.

Wow you guys are so quick to hit the panic button, lol. VLSC, as stated before is only on a unit level and many times not done at all. I think you will see a revised curriculum that will be applicable to all programs just like WoodBadge is now, originally it was a Boy Scout leader program only. I think OGE may be right that this is the first step to making Boy Scouts of America into Scouting America a totally coed program. In any case I don't think it is time to panic just yet.

John's roundtable is more the ideal rather than realistic, after serving in four councils and six districts I have never seen a roundtable as well organized as John describes. Most roundtables attract about 10-15% of the district volunteers, and most of them are Cubs, a handful of troop leaders, and very few venturing leaders. The purpose is to share news, information and resources on the local, regional and national level, and to exchange ideas with your fellow volunteers. Even a roundtable with a small turnout can be very worthwhile if it is well organized by the roundtable commissioners.

Shortridge you are so right on in your post which makes me wonder how safe are the kids really at camp when it comes to shooting sports or aquatics? Camp school, which I have been to, is intense but the lack of real life experience is very apparent in many camps I have been to over the years. And sorry Crew021 a BSA camp school shooting credential is NOT the same as an NRA certification, and as I said before outside a BSA facility it has no value or credibility. While all councils have money issues shooting and aquatics at camp are not areas where they should be cutting corners, one serious accident or death and that camp and council would be gone for good.

OGE I am glad you had a great time playing at camp but the sad fact is that certification is only valid at BSA facilities, and thats why I said it was a waste of time and money. The NRA certifications are the only nationally recognized ones and is a much better investment. By the way OGE did you wear your red beret to the training and play Army Ranger,lol, jk.