BadenP

Barry I am willing to bet that your failed crews were probably run by former scoutmasters who ran them like a troop keeping all the power for themselves,and the teens got bored and left. If a Venturing Crew is run like it is outlined in the VLM and you let the teens REALLY lead and organize the program to their interests then you will be successful. Your area is not typical of Venturing in most well run and Venturing friendly councils. A Venturing Crew and a Boy Scout Troop are really very different programs in scope and purpose.

SR540 It is very apparent from your last post your image/understanding of Venturing is at best skewed and mixed up. I have been with Venturing for over a decade now, after many years as a Cub leader and a Scoutmaster and it amazes me how little most SM's understand what Venturing truly is. Uniform- yea teens Venturing age don't want to wear a typical boy scout uniform, especially if it is a coed crew. However most crews do select some sort of identifying item like a sweatshirt, polo shirt, jacket, etc with the crew and Venturing logos on them, why do they need more? Program/Advancement- If you look at the Venturing Leaders Manual you will see a well organized methodology of organizing and planning a wide variety of activities including crew meetings, leader training, outdoor activities, etc. As far as advancement, there are awards the teens can earn, if they want to, but are not mandatory. This program treats the teens more like adults capable of making decisions. Most of the teens in my crew have eaned several Bronze and Gold awards, Ranger and/or Quest awards, about 75% have earned the Silver Award. However Venturing is not FOCUSED on these awards, unlike cub and boy scout programs. Our crew has grown from 8 members to over 80 active members over the years and continues to grow. Some of the original members are now adult advisors in the crew. So I guess this crew is truly a success story with an active outdoor program that attracts more and more teens every year. IMO, if the boy scout program had more of the Venturing methodology incorporated into it the BSA would not be losing all the boy scouts it does each year currently.

Odds are this seller is probably a past scout and knows how many scouts and scouters out there are willing to buy these products for whatever personal reasons to make a quick buck. Fact is that most National run scout stores it is extremely easy to go in and buy a Eagle badge or most any restricted item without ever being asked for paperwork. If you are an adult the store help figures you are authorized, or don't really care, that's the way they run the National store in my council. All the Eagle badges, Silver, Ranger, Gold awards I have purchased for my troop or crew over the years, and never once was asked for paperwork. The rules mean nothing if they are not being consistently enforced throughout the country. The reality is no one is abusing anything, it is the holes in the system. Added note, anyone can get WB beads, necker, and woggle from Gilwell Park without any documentation either by ordering online or visiting Gilwell in person. I have ordered replacements for myself and additional ones for scouter friends beading ceremonies.

AHH Rooster7 yes you are indeed one of those zealots I referred to. I am sure you have read the Bible and can you show me one instance where Jesus forced his beliefs on anyone? or where Jesus tried to influence or change the political powers of his time? There simply are NONE because that was not what his message was about. Modern day Christian zealots don't seem to get Jesus' message that "My kingdom is not of this world." You should worry more about saving your own soul than who is sitting in the White House or a particular piece of legislation since all of that is temporary and constantly changing. Politics and Religion simply do not mix and what you propose truly is not the Christian way. Packsaddle- your folksy little backwoods quip is not only inappropriate it adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, but here is one for you, "it is better to let folks think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Crew21 I understand what you are saying, however our teens continue to surprise us with their organizational abilities. About half of our coed group were former boy or girl scouts so that might account for some of the dynamics in the group. In fact it is usually the girls who manage to keep the boys focused and on task. Still IMO Venturing is a great program, our crew keeps growing, and we are doing more activities each year. Good Luck with your own crew and keep up the good work your teens I am sure will surprise you.

Crew21 Most of the members in our crew are in the 16-20 year old range and are VERY capable of organizing and carrying out crew activities. Yea, once in a while they may get a little off course and thats when the adult advisors provide some guidance. It is a rare occasion rather than a regular one however when adult intervention is required.

Thanks Moosetracker! Sometimes some overzealous, self absorbed, politico-religious fanatics in this forum take themselves way too seriously.

OGE It was reported on the NBC and CBS Nightly News a few days back, it was also in most major city newspapers, and internet news services. You must be pretty isolated from the rest of the world OGE. Apparently many of the Italian cardinals and other conservative cardinals are not too happy with Pope Benedicts reign and are now positioning themselves to "take back the Church" when he passes on. As far the Latin Mass is concerned that was a major priority with Benedict when he became pope, but he received so little support from his bishops and cardinals, as well as the resurrgence of the priest pedophile issue, his failing health,and another Vatican Bank scandal, he now has more important priorities.

As far as churches are concerned in the USA, they enjoy a tax exempt status as well as a hands off status when it comes to many of them preaching their Anti American and anti government gibberish message to the masses. IMHO if the churches want to interfer with the way the country is run, if they want to own hospitals and insurance companies then they should lose their tax exempt status and be subject to all the same laws regulating hospitals, insurance companies, and corporations, they can not and should not be allowed to have their cake and eat it too. Too many churches today are being run within an anarchy of their own creation. Whether it is the Catholic Church where a select group of cardinals are now positioning themselves to be in all the key power positions in the Vatican, against the wishes of the Pope, or the Anglican and Episcopal hierarchies at a breaking point with each other as well as with their own followers. No, clergy are hardly in any position to dictate to their flocks how to vote or what our elected leaders should be doing in running the country. As Jesus himself said "Render unto Caesar those things that are Caesar's and render unto God those things that are God's." There is no mixing of the sacred and the profane according to Scripture, and it is time for some over zealous clergy members to realize what their vocation is truly about.

OGE Only if it falls within BSA's current advancement guidelines and restrictions, which again is more currently geared to sitting on your butt in a class then getting outdoors and exploring nature. Many of the troops and crews in my council who are geared to getting back to the original scoutcraft skills, such as pioneering, have to violate the guidelines as to the creation and use of towers and monkey bridges for example. Even you OGE should be able to comprehend that.

hey BD, The BPSA does looks like it could be a viable solution to those troops wanting to do a more traditional outdoor program, without all the bureaucracy and headaches of National and Council executives who are solely focused on money and turning scouting into a classroom experience. Program and focus would then fall to the troop leadership.

Do we need the BSA??? Depends on how you define who and what the BSA really is and is supposed to do. In the last 20 years there has been a total refocus at National which has severely hurt the program. The original purpose of the BSA was to provide youth with an exciting outdoor program where they learned scoutcraft, leadership, and an appreciation of the outdoors. It has now erroded into a classroom program with too many sedentary activities and a huge deemphasis on the outdoors portion. Many of the new leaders are to blame as much as is National. The result has been a continued decline in membership as the BSA gets further and further away from its origins. There has been an ever increasing anomosity between volunteers and professionals due to National's growing demands for money, money and money. The program has been watered down to the point where the kids find it BORING and not any fun any more. Many unit programs are being run by too many untrained or undertrained volunteers who really are unprepared to give a good and fun program to their youth, and don't seem to care either. So there are many problems with the volunteer and professionals in the BSA with plenty of blame on both sides. Those few units who are running a quality program and growing annually usually have as little to do with council and district as possible, and that is a sad commentary on the current state of the BSA.

Scoutfish Once again this thread is NOT about firefighting, cpr or first aid, those are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Please stay on topic. Eagle92 I really think you have blown this up way out of proportion, F scouter is essentially correct, pigs must be flying, you can play Nationals little game to get the patch or continue on as usual.

scoutfish you missed the point entirely, we were not talking about cpr or first aid training for leaders, however neither of these are done by the BSA so your argument is moot. At least in my crew we have three instructors for first aid and cpr, one is even an MD. So you can retract your snide comments to hicountry. This is a discussion on BSA basic and outdoor training courses, read the OP, and the ludicrous proposal by National to get yet another patch. JTE should be renamed for what it truly is Journey to Extinction of the cub and boy scout programs.

namu Having district and council events turn a profit has been a standard council practice for over 25 years, if not longer. Reason being too many events were not being planned well and wound up in the red, which council had to pick up. As a DE we were instructed by our SE that any event we planned had to clear at least 25% profit to cover any shortfalls, and that all district event budgets had to be submitted by the DE to the SE for approval. Don't kid yourself all councils first and foremost objectives are Money and Membership, and in that order. The profits were generally used to pay off debts from summer camp and cub day camp, sometimes for other debts.

Eagle92 All of the adults and youth officers in our crew have training way above and beyond what the BSA has to offer. In my own council, at their request, our crew's adults do almost all the outdoor skills training, and all of the advanced outdoor skills training. This JTE nonsense is just another National desk jockey policy written by someone trying to insure his job security and is totally out of touch with scouting in the field. The fact that they have a new PATCH as an inducement to repeat the same old stuff is just laughable.I feel sorry for the new leaders and the guilible current leaders who get sucked into this chasm of chaos and confusion from National, all because of a new patch, lol.

E92 Like Scoutfish said very little, except YPT has any bearing to Venturing which already has its own YPT especially for its unique program. This is mainly for Cubs and Boy Scouts and is still total lunacy. Besides our crew doesnt wear patches on its uniforms.

And it is idiocy like this from the leaders at National that makes me so grateful every day that I am in Venturing instead of the every declining pedantic Boy Scout program.

If an eagle candidate can not answer some simple questions on his rank or merit badges such as what was the hardest thing you had to cook for your cooking badge, or what was your most difficult requirement for 1st Class, then that probably should send up some red flags to the EBOR that this kid was part of a troop that is a Eagle and MB mill. While the kid can't be penalized it would be appropriate for the DAC and the D. Comm. to do a followup to that troop leadership to express their concerns about the quality and readiness of their candidates.

Yeah, Beav and twocub are correct a BOR, especially an EBOR has the right and responsibility, as stated in the BSA pub, to ask any questions about the scouts journey in scouting. They can not retest any skills, but they can ask specifics about his ranks, MB's, and project, such as what he learned, what was the most difficult experience in scouting and why, etc. An EBOR is NOT a rubberstamp committee for the Eagle Badge, it is their responsibility to determine if a boy is truly ready to be an Eagle. If the EBOR in your district is just a checkpoint for the boy and nothing more than you are NOT doing the EBOR correctly, according to BSA standards.

pack gotta agree with you, when it comes to political reality and the economic reality there really seems to be no inteligent life left on this planet. The Wall Street protesters can not seem to get organized under a cohesive message and have lost much of the publics support. They are now being looked at as an expensive nuisance that has dragged on way too long. Our country is truly being run by an inept and nonfunctioning government who really hasn't got a clue what to do to make things better, either side.

I have to agree with Eng61, this is parental warfare at its worse and you can bet that scouting is not at the top of either parents list. The sad part is the boy is caught in the middle and is the only true victim here.

JM I think the problem is since you and 5yr sons are involved you can't really be objective here. Look, anyway you slice it doing a scout service project means just that and if a boy is using a school or FFA project he previously performed and counting that again as a scout service project that is double dipping hours by any definition. Any SM who allows his boys to follow this practice better reread the scout law under trustworthy. It is not your job to find loopholes for your boys in meeting their requirements, no matter how "busy" they are. This is just another example of how some SM's do a great disservice to their boys fudging rank requirements here and there, allowing triple dipping on service while the boy realizes that he hasn't truly fufilled all the requirements and is still awarded his rank anyway, what message does that boy come away with, the message is it is okay to sometimes fudge or skip a project or requirement if it gets you to your goal faster, and he carries that onto college and adult life to his own kids. Look whether you call it double dipping, fudging or whatever it is still Cheating, and that is contrary to the BSA program like it or not. What is better for a boy scout to say, man getting my Eagle was a lot of hard work but it was worth it., or, man getting my Eagle was a piece of cake I got to use work I did for other things and count it as a boy scout requirement too, made my Eagle by 13 with no sweat. Which scout do you think received the true BSA program and appreciated his achievement??? Look you guys can debate this till the cows come home but it has become counter productive and pointless. Morality, Integrity, and Honesty has come to mean different things to different people, as this thread has sadly shown. I am done!

"There comes a point where the values of scouting of my day are no longer the values of scouting of the future" - Barry, (or even of todays scouting). Barry well said. One of my personal goals and obligations as a scout leader today is to instill in my crew adults and youth a real sense of those values so that they continue to get carried down to future generations. In our crews case a sense of respect for the beauty and sacredness of the outdoors, and our obligation to help protect and preserve it for future generations. While at the same time learning how to enjoy all the wonderful experiences nature has to offer us. I am so grateful that this message has become the core theme for our crew. You know if all us "old time scouters" could do the same thing in their units we would in essence help preserve the true values of scouting, no matter what direction National goes. You may not always be able to fight city hall, but there are always avenues open to go around it.

Eamonn I agree and relate with so much in your post, nostalgia is great and unfortunately every organization changes with the times. My biggest concerns are just how much the outdoor emphasis has been lost in scouts, how the quality and challenge of the scouting program has become so simplified and watered down over time, and how National is rapidly and blindly leading the scouting program down a great highway to nowhere. Then I look at my crew started over a decade ago with 5 adults and 8 teens wondering what this new Venturing program was all about. Then watching the membership grow to over 70 youth and 25 adult leaders, and still growing every year. Now in my fifties I see this crew will have no trouble surviving far into the future with an exciting and challenging outdoor program, and that is my legacy to scouting. As the CC/COR I can pretty much assure the continued strong support of our sponsor and our leaders and committee continuing to be a strong team until one day when it is my turn to turn over the reins to another.