lrsap

Call me crazy, but isn't it possible he was just curious if the rule existed? Or are we to assume all boys in Scouting are potential horrible creatures that, if not for our adult wonderfulness, would devolve into rude, insolent man-apes?

Sorry evmori, but I have to disagree with you on this one, which based on my frequent reading of these forums is actually rare. To me, a relative example would be to replace "social media age restrictions" with "posted speed limit". If every time a SM is driving he/she goes 5 miles over the posted speed limit, the SM is in violation of the law. The SM obeys the rules of the road to a t when performing the SM scouter role, but people see him/her driving 5 - 10 mph over when going to work or to the beach with the family. Based on that, I need to inform the committee the SM is an unsafe law breaker, and this will be considered during recharter at the end of the year.

The one thing I definitely do not want to do is attribute words to you when they are not justified. When you say "taken into account come advancement time", you are not saying you would withhold based solely on this issue, would you? Like all things, whether we agree or disagree on this specific issue, even the best young men are a work in progress. Heck, most adults too.

First of all, as a daily reader and poster to these forums, I would like to say how pleasant it has been to see a thread this long full of honest opinion, but every post being written in a Scout-like, friendly manner.

My 0.02 in this issue is intended as a generalization, not specific to the parties involved in this issue. Actually, MIB, as someone who is going to be the SM of a brand new troop here in the extreme near future, based on everything I have read you would not only be a highly appreciated member of the troop, but I suspect you would get very tired from me leaning on you all the time.

The one argument I have thought of against an 18-20 year old SM that I haven't seen is one of the perspective of the young man assuming the role. I have seen advice given to Webelos den leaders to take some time off before jumping into an ASM role. This is to give the Cub Scout mentality time to clear the leader's mind. I suggest that in certain cases this could happen to a young man that has been a fantastic Boy Scout, clearly a leaders amongst his peers, that is suddenly in charge of a troop as THE MAN, being the SM the next day.

Properly administered, the program is about the youth. We are there to be noticed as little as possible. My goal for my new troop is to receive my first "what are you doing? the boys are doing everything." compliment as soon as possible. To go from being the focus of the program, receiving all the kudos and accolades that go along with it, to making that big step back can be difficult for anyone. To expect that kind of turn-around from an 18 year-old in one day is a lot to ask.

If you think about a well run troop, the boy leaders decide where to go, how to get there, what is needed, etc. Imagine the temptation of making this decision for the boys as an 18 SM just because "I know what to do. I've been doing it for ** years." That could lead the way from being boy lead to adult lead in a very short amount of time.

But like I said, this is a generalization. I would be on board with an approval process that goes to council level, not just the committee. I'm aware that we don't all live in councils of equal quality, but to leave this to just committee approval gives too much opportunity for chaos. Maybe even something along the lines of a BOR for the candidate. Just a thought, brainstorming for common ground.

Also, the scenario of the two attending HS together is an interesting spin on the subject. Perhaps a criteria of having graduated HS would be acceptable to all?

Anyway, MIB as someone who I will maybe never have the chance to meet, I would welcome the chance to share a spot at the campfire. I'm sure I this middle-aged guy could learn a lot from you.

Neil, you are right that I shouldn't drop a comment like "...'boy-led' used as an excuse to be 'do-nothing' leaders..." without a bit of an explanation. When I actually read it again, it may have been a bit to harsh of a phrase to use. What I mean by this is the boys in the troop were hardly doing anything that resembled a troop meeting. There wasn't much scouting going on at all. If it weren't for the Oath and Law at the beginning, there wouldn't be much difference between the meeting and kids hanging out at a bus stop. Boys are leaving because they are bored. And when you ask the leaders why they don't get with the youth leadership to right the ship, the response is, "We are boy-led. It's their job to put the program together". Then they go back to sitting on their hands and watching nothing happen.

Truth is, after I read my original post, it makes me wish I hadn't brought up the negatives of the other two troops. Truth is, some good friends are getting together to start a Boy Scout troop, and that's a good thing. I think my adult camping patrol will be named the No Drama Patrol.

And I must say I definitely appreciate the replies and ideas provided by everyone. I need to hit EBay t see if I can find one of thse 3rd Edition books. And Beavah, I really got some perspective from your post. I've been so focused on the first two months, and I need to start working on more of my long range planning. And as you said, it is truly an honor that I have been considered to fill the role.

I'm sure this has come up before, but hopefully this is with a slightly different spin so I'm at least not too boring.

I am going to be the SM of a brand new troop that will be starting up in about a month. The biggest obstacle I think we are going to face as a troop is not the boys inexperience but mine.

I have not been an SM before, and have only been an ASM for two troops for about a year. For the last year, I believe I have seen a lot of the "what not to do" type of leadership. I was part of the most adult led troop in my area, and in the other saw "boy-led" used as an excuse to be "do-nothing" leaders. The funny thing about both is one thing you cannot doubt is the adult leaders cared for the boys they led. They just wouldn't seem to know the patrol method if BPs ghost visited them when the bell struck 1, 2 and 3!

What I'm asking is what are some of the best methods to starting out on the right path from Day One? When we open, we will probably be looking at about 8 - 10 kids, with the most experienced one being something like a 12 year old 2nd Class. The majority of the troop will be TF or entirely new scouts.

Is an SPL election something to be looking at from the beginning? I know the boy(s) that would be the likely suspects to run, and even though young I feel they would be up to the challenge. Not to the level of a typical SPL in an established troop, but they would definitely appreciate the responsibility of the position. Or in a situation such as this, is an SPL a luxury saved until we have enough for two patrols, so there is some C to a PLC?

Regardless (and this is why I posted it here), the patrol method has to be the backbone of our troop from Opening Day. I feel it is a crime to give a boy a handbook full of promises of adventure when they walk in the door, then offer a completely different program. I have all of the official documentation and manuals about instilling the patrol method, but what are some other ideas you have seen that works in this area for a new troop full of young scouts?

I hope nobody gets the wrong idea about the troop we are starting. We really aren't a bunch of "take our ball and go home" type of people. I received a call and the offer of SM by people who have scouts that are just wanting to do it right. Patrols, patrol yells, patrol flags (and not ones professionally embroidered such as the A.L. troop). The scouts deciding their own meals, and cooking them. Scouts deciding where to go and how to get there instead of adults announcing "where we are going next month". It's almost as if the biggest secret around here is that's where the fun in the program really is, in letting the boys run the program. I see my job as not the one to run it, but to make sure it is run. Sometimes during (Hey SPL, you may want to take care of that), sometimes after (So SPL, what would you do differently?).

Now here is where it gets different, at least from what I read from others who post. I actually have a very supportive District Staff, including a Vigil District Comm who has said he will be available any time I need him. And he is the type of guy to back up those words. I honestly wish others on this forum were as fortunate as I in that regard.

Anyway, thank you very much for the opportunity to ramble as much as I have. I promise my first Scoutmaster's Minute will not take 20.

I just finished helping out at a Cub Camp, and like yours someone at Council liked the sound of the cash register going off. We had over double the amount of people the camp should hold. It was an amazing thing to see.

Anyway, I assisted the RM on the BB range. Got to the range at 8:00, and never left until 6:30 that night. Lunch was eventually run out to us around 2:00 in the form of leftovers. We had Cubs up to our ears, with never a break for 10 hours.

And I loved every minute of it.

Thanks for the kind words. A committee position might be the way to go, or maybe a return as an ASM in the future. I just know there are some Webelos who need me to be there, and a T-foot that needs to branch out just a bit more. I think me not being there for a few months will make a big difference. Then, when maybe I return, the dynamic will be even better.

Because, just between us, not being "Dad" when I needed to be ASM was a lot harder than I thought it would be.

And going back after the Cub Scout year may be a possibility. It all depends on what he needs when summer camp rolls around.

After being my son's leader from TC through Webelos, and crossing over with him into his troop this spring, I have always said I would either be there, or not be there, when he was a Boy Scout based on what would be best for him. Through a canoe trip (his first time in one, very nervous) to summer camp where he didn't pass his Swim Test and was extremely nervous about the overnighter for Wilderness Survival MB, being there was what he needed.

Then a funny thing started to happen over the summer. He started working on his swimming, and not only passed the test but earned his Swimming MB. Then, when we had some business to take care of the same weekend of a scout event, he informed us he would be fine if we wanted to let him go without me. Then at school Open House, I was informed by his science teacher that more than any kid she has, he has emerged as the leader of his work group. Hmmmmm....

Flash forward to this fall, where the WDL from our old pack happens to have Webelos coming out of his ears, and asked if I could offer some help. I threw on some blue loops and acquired a AWDL patch, and brought my son along for the fun of it. Heck, I thought, he could at least lead the Oath and Law to the den.

They were working on the Citizen AB, and it was time for the raising and lowering of the flag. I was starting out the first pair of 10 boys when I needed to get one of the others to stay reasonably still, so I asked my son to try his best to take over while I calmed the crowd. I'm sure you can guess what happened next.

He had them raising the flag, ensuring they took proper care not to let it touch the ground and instructed them on how it isn't a race to see who could get it to the top first. He then made all the calls to properly run the ceremony before calling up the next pair. In other words, without saying anything he told me, "I'm ok Dad, I've got this."

And that was when I saw it. The little boy is leaving, the young man is starting to arrive, and I will be tendering my resignation to the troop. He needs me to NOT be there now.

Besides, I know a WDL who needs a hand. Sometimes you recruit a little too well.

OOW!

One hOur per Week

Well, just got back yesterday. That was one of the best weeks I have ever spent in my life. If anyone is thinking about a week at Camp Old Indian in S.C., go for it. The staff was fantastic and the place was beautiful.

Another great thing is watching the new scouts. As the week went by, so did the "new".

And yes, thanks for the Gold Bond Body Powder tip. I was the keeper of the Magic Powder for boys that walk funny.

Ladies and gentlemen, can you help a newbie out? I'm about to embark on my first SC EVER, and I was wondering. After the basics, what is the "one thing" you wish you would have brought to Summer Camp?

Sincerely,

One excited ASM!!

"Incidentally, I have never seen a bylaw that actually pertained to a scout... so far, they were always created because of adults and parents!"

Can I get an amen!!!

Just on the surface, I'm leaning towards misunderstanding rather than anything devious. The fact that some of the dates are prior to bridging makes me think about the TF requirements. A lot of them would be done by a Webelos earning his AOL. So he may have been going through the book saying, "Hey, I did that. That too! Cool!" If he were actually trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes, I suspect the entries would have looked different.

Not being critical, but just asking. When you say he is aware they do not sign off on their own advancement, does that mean you know he knows, or was it announced? The reason I ask is I have an 11YO soon to be TF myself. He's a great, bright, straight A (WHOOPS, dad brag, sorry) but I'm sometimes AMAZED at what I have to repeat 2 or 3 times before it sinks in.

Not exactly, BD. The CO's rules are their rules. They have the right to restrict as they see fit. I may not agree, but that is how it is.

My post was more towards your question and the point you were making. If this were your troop, and a man who is your District RT Commish, all relevant BS training, WB, has a son in your troop wants to be an ASM and camp with your troop, would you then ask him why? Would you tell him to back off, it's not about him?

I totally get letting him fly on his own, and in a lot of cases that is be best. The fact that you spend personal time with your son outdoors only reinforces that. But if we go with "No parent's as direct Boy Scout Leaders", we are going to be hurting.

"Can I inquire, for information's sake, how old your son is, and why you want to go camping with his troop?"

"Another thing to consider, This is your son's scouting experience, Back off let him go camping with the troop, MOM does not to need to be with him all the time. This is not about you."

Just curious gentlemen, if it was a Dad with the same scouting resume, would you ask him these questions?

"Another sad point: negative-end-of-spectrum GOBs always overestimate what they contribute."

Excellent. That goes along with the negative end of the GOBN over-committing but under-producing, just in an effort to hang together. I was at a CS Day Camp, where one of the activities was cookies in a box oven. It was actually "Groups of Cubs come and get these cookies we cooked while 8 of us were hanging out on the porch"

And BTW Basementdweller, I thought the post was excellent.

I've read about mega-packs in these forums over the last couple of years, and I've always wondered exactly how they can be run well. I have personally never seen one in person, so I am not being critical of something I have no knowledge. If you are the leader of one of these type packs, how do you make it work?

"I am 52 years old and Scouts is no longer "my" game"

Narraticong, without knowing it, you have provided the best 12 word response I have ever read here, applicable to many threads.

Can anyone provide a link or paste the official requirements or duties for the two new positions, Troop Webmaster and LNT Trainer? I'm normally pretty good at digging these things up, but I've struck out so far.

CPAMom,

That's the hard part. You plan and notify, then plan and notify some more, then the occasional let downs do happen. The good thing is, it always seems when you need it most one of those great meetings or events where everyone shows up and has a good time happens. Then you say, "Oh yeah, that's why I do this."

It reminds me of my Webelos 3 miles at a nature center. On the way with my son and wife in the car, my lovely wife mentions something about how a lot of the den parents don't listen, can't make it on time, etc. But this time, we had 100%, all assembled and ready to go. This immediately led to my son to say, in a not so quiet voice, "Mom, they are all here. I thought you said they never listen to what Dad says and never make it on time?" Aren't kids great.

First, all dens are different. Some are made up of boys that get their new Webelos HB, and are gung-ho about getting all 20 pins. Some are like mine, who are crossing in one week and were really chomping at the bit to be Boy Scouts since Bears. No good or bad, right or wrong, just different.

As far as meeting in the summer, the first person to ask is you CM to see if there is any issue (meeting place, etc) that could prevent it. If not, gauge your feelings about attendance during summer den meetings. If you feel the summer months will leave you with half-filled meetings, it probably isn't worth it. You will start the new year with more mis-matched Webelos advancement than would be productive to deal with.

What you do want is to do SOMETHING each month. Start trying to set dates in March with your parents, because family summer plans can be quite tricky. Then, if you see a Saturday or Sunday that can be fully attended, jump on it. Saturday afternoon at a den family's back yard with a pool? Den cookout and Aquanaut Day. Spare Sunday afternoon? Take a 3 mile hike on a nature trail. If you're lucky, you can work on most of your Naturalist, and knock out an AOL requirement. Maybe even throw in a thing or two from Outdoorsman.

Last but not least, one of the biggest reasons to cut down your Summer meetings to one per month is you need and deserve a break. Starting in September, your Den Leader world will be focused on an arrow and a bridge, and everything you need to get your boys there. Take the Summer to enjoy a few fun outings with the boys, but also to recharge the batteries and do some long-range planning for the last 6-8 months of your Cub Scout career.

I know I'm dragging on, but one more thing. It's not so much when they cross as opposed to when they select their troop. Have a goal of at least 3 troop visits by December school break, and the boys deciding their troops by mid-January. This way, even if you don;t cross until as late as May, the boys can go on outings with their future troops and gain some much needed experience before summer.

Please tell me at the very least they put at least 18 of the 20 to work? No, of course not. Aren't OTHER people supposed to do the work?

Just curious, have you ever seen them conduct a meeting? I mean, what could they possibly have for all of them to do on a troop level?

Thank you everyone. You put my mind at ease as far as how this might look to others. And I definitely believe talking to the boys about it is a good idea.

Thing is, my comment was a bit cheeky, but accurate in my opinion. And now you say that it was made mandatory "Because nobody said I couldn't do it!" What is he, twelve years old? No, scratch that. My 11 year old wouldn't even try that.

I'm sure the syllabus doesn't say "all class participants must not wear a costume of their critter for the entire second weekend". Does that mean he can say you are required to walk around camp dressed as a six foot bobwhite?