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lrsap

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Posts posted by lrsap

  1. Eagle Foot,

     

    One piece of advice regarding these forums, sometimes it is best to lay out as much detail as possible to keep people from jumping to conclusions. No condescending message here, just something I learned.

     

    In terms of the event, I think it sounds like a great plan and a good way to incorporate Patrol movement. If you haven't given thought to it, perhaps the electronic device for the Patrol Leader, and different stations requiring different skills (like morse code). Then if you get the plan out to the troops soon enough, the PL can work with their patrols to appoint one of the members to specialize in each. That way the PL is taking the lead and each scout spends their time learning one skill in detail instead of a high level, everybody learns a little nobody learns a lot approach. I'm not saying each Scout can't learn all well, but the time between Leader's Guide dispersal and the event may not allow it. And I think you would see a difference if one boy knows he alone is responsible for learning a skill to help his patrol succeed.

     

    And in terms of some troops not attending because of troop policy, I would not concern myself greatly with that. That is not to say anything against troops that have such a policy. It's just that if you water things down enough to make everyone happy you end up with a boring event. And also, I don't see any difference between a troop not attending because of a no cell phone policy and a troop not attending a district event that offers merit badges because the method goes against their policy for that as well.

     

    Besides, it's the boys that decide is they go or not, right?

  2. "Ignore it until the parents of your 12-20 new Scouts fill out the paperwork, and you panic because you are not really prepared to multiply your Troop's membership by four (4) in one week"

     

    Kudu, I have to be honest, you nailed me dead on with that one. When you said "Why not 12-20?" my eyes shot open a bit when I started thinking about the tents and other gear we don't have.

     

    But then I started thinking, if I take a kid who has never been camping before and I can just get him out there once, sitting around a campfire looking at a billion stars he has never seen because of the city lights, I don't necessarily need all the latest and greatest. That has probably been one of my biggest personal problems so far, thinking about what we don't have instead of appreciating what we do. I sometimes have to keep telling myself as long as they have what they need to cook, eat and sleep, the bells and whistles will be accumulated over time.

     

    And I definitely see your point about not having an SPL/ASPL, and I think I like it. The only problem I have with that one is in our current format, the one patrol we do have has a 13y.o. PL that has really stepped up and has the patrol's buy-in as far as him being in charge goes. With as well as he has done, I'm not sure how to unring that bell or of I would even want to. It may be a case of making the bed and lying in it. But that doesn't mean we need to ever have an SPL/ASPL after the change in position of the older boys. And if you were to watch the whole thing in action, instead of SPL/ASPL/PL, it kind of runs like a PL/APL/APL because only having the one patrol only gives the two boys one patrol to lead. About the only thing that is separate is the camping and cooking. The young guns do theirs, the older boys do theirs, and my ASM and me do ours. So in an odd kind of not exactly way, we are doing it close to PM, just some of the patches are different. :)

     

    To be honest, looking back I think I unintentionally tricked the older boys. They weren't crazy about being stuck in a patrol having to be a patrol leader for a bunch of kids 3-5 years younger than us. Ok, no problem. You we will make you Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Senior Patrol Leader of the one patrol troop.

     

    Kudu, let me ask. When we do get a good number of boys and have 2-3 patrols, does not having an SPL, and instead have a group of PL give a SM a better grasp of what is going on with the patrols? It might seem that it would. And when it is time for planning sessions, do you have one boy lead them or does one just normally seem to take the lead?

     

    I think I am beginning to grasp your concept of an SPL, but please correct me if I'm off base. Do you see it as an unnecessary mid-management position that gets in the way of the fun?

  3. BD I agree and disagree. I totally agree that an "After Project Party" is pushing the envelope way past the scope of what the donations should be used for. Want to say thank you afterward? Host a cookout or something on your dime. It's a nice thing to do, and proper socially. But to say it should be part of the budget is to suggest the volunteers should expect it, and that's wrong in my book.

     

    I also agree that if a Scout came to me requesting funds for materials needed to make park benches, bird houses, whatever, and then I hear the money also went to the feeding of the crew, I might feel a little odd about that.

     

    Where we disagree is that the idea of feeding a crew while they are working is a bad thing to put into the budget. To me it would be the same as putting gloves and sunscreen in the budget to make sure the well-being of the crew is taken into account.

     

    I believe the answer for both of us is for the Scout requesting funds present an itemized budget to everyone he asks. He may not know to the dime how much everything will cost, but there should be no problem calling the local pizza shop to see how much those magical 25 pizzas that feed 50 Scouts will cost. Then, up front the one being asked to donate knows that part of their contribution will go to the $200 food cost. That way there are no surprises and no legitimate after-the-fact complaining.

  4. I read the thread about how to take 100 boys and run the PM, and there was some great advice in there.

     

    I am a SM on the other end of the spectrum. We are about 6 months in, and have grown from 5 to 9 boys. While it was not my intention to run a version of a NSP, I opened with two boys that now have drivers licenses and then the rest are freshly 13 to 11. So I have the two older boys in SPL/ASPL positions, but really treat them as JASMs, which we will officially make them very soon.

     

    We have set a goal of "16 by Summer Camp". We recognize the need to grow by at least one patrol to run all aspects of a PM troop. I am seeking advice on two fronts. One, does anyone have recruiting ideas that have worked to bring in 5-6 scouts at one shot? I ask because if I get a patrol's worth in at one time, my problems are solved. While yes, it is a NSP, a NewSP beats a NoSP any day.

     

    The other question is what to do if what I think might happen comes to pass. If we make our goal by getting one scout here, two scouts there, what number is too many and what methods do you use to say, "Ok guys, our one patrol is just too big. Time to split."

     

    One thing I would say, our approach to adult leadership in this troop is one of as little drama as possible. Too much of that in my neck of the woods, and leading scouts is hard enough without dealing with soap opera games. I'm saying this to lead to the point that recruiting Cub Scout Packs affiliated with any CO that also has a troop is not something I am interested in. Will I happily talk to scouts and parents dissatisfied with the next step in their CO, YOU BETCHA! But I'm not going to seek them out.

     

    Well, I'm off to surf the web for church youth group meeting times and packs with no brother troops. Thanks everyone.

  5. Had the day off with Scout son, so it was a great time to take in a new trail. Found an owl pellet, which may sound silly coming from a grown man but is always cool to the both of us.

     

    It kind of made me think, for you what is that outdoor thing that, no matter how many times you experience it, always brings out that 11 year-old in all of us.

     

    A few of mine:

     

    Looking at the clear night sky the first night out

    Lightning bugs

    Beaver dams

    The smell of bacon cooking on a camping morning

     

    Yours?

  6. Curiosity also makes me ask, are the leaders required to sign similar contracts, and if this were a leader's FB page would he be asked to resign?

     

    What's un-Scoutlike for the goose......

     

    I do want to say if it seems like anyone is being to heavy-handed with the criticism, I think everyone is in agreement that you and the SM are doing a great job of working through this potential mine field.

  7. "We also explain to him that we expect him to adhere to the Scout Oath and Law in all aspects of his public life. This is explained to all of our "office" holders and they are required to read (with a parent or guardian present) and sign a statement that they will adhere to these standards in and out of scouting. There lies the problem. To a certain extent I personally believe he violated this standard."

     

    To back up what Beavah said, I'm not to keen on using the Oath and Law in such a manner. Now full disclosure being we've never met and all I know is what read, so this may be working great for your troop. But to me it sounds like such a hard line only sets you up for hardship down the road. Applying "failure to follow the Oath and Law" could lead to having to split hairs or have the discussion of which point of the Law is more important. Does a Scout who posts a video with naughty words on FB (A Scout is Clean) face the same punishment as the Scout who blows all his money in the camp store on candy and slush puppies the first day of SC (A Scout is Thrifty)?

  8. Thanks, and yes they are a good group that is really starting to come together. One thing I enjoyed was seeing the good natured jabbing back and forth between the older boys and the patrol concerning their separate menus. Not to talk negatively, but the ones that came from other troops before joining us were new to the whole "You mean the whole troop doesn't eat the same thing?" idea.

     

    At breakfast one of the older boys looks at a new scout cooking on his first trip and tells him "Ok, we got you with dinner last night, but you got us on the bacon this morning." And the icing on the cake was when there was bacon left over, the patrol had seconds. The sad puppy dog faces on the older boys was hilarious.

     

    So you can see why the next trip they have already decided is a cooking competition.

     

     

  9. Just got back from a quick overnight camping trip with the new troop. As we are set now, we have basically a New Scout Patrol and two older experienced Scouts performing JASM roles. Well, this camping trip is one I will remember as a fantastic trip, but I'm not sure anyone else would recognize it. It wasn't any elaborate setting, actually much more "civilized" of a spot than I ever want to go again. Real nice for Cubs if you know what I mean. No great program or anything like that.

     

    What made this special to me was seeing a new 2nd Class PL become a Patrol LEADER. He had his by-the-book stuff ready, duty roster and the like. But until this short trip I had not seen him actually take charge of the group. More than once I would watch something not happen and him drift off, so I had to give him a gentle "Come over here a minute" and take him to the side and ask him questions like what should so-n-so be doing right now, or what about this thing or that. After the third small side discussion, I could tell he knew what the deal was every time I said, "Come over here a minute". So then he wouldn't even let me get the question out. He would look around his patrol area and see what wasn't done and tell me by the time he got to me instead of me having to ask.

     

    The absolute best was this morning after breakfast clean-up. His patrol's cook area was not complete, but there was the entire patrol hanging out around a big tree. He walked by me and I just asked him if the area met his standards. He immediately heads to the tree and gets those assigned to kitchen clean-up back to finish their job, tells those that aren't the gear needs to be loaded and the area policed, and quote "Now get to work!"

     

    Two things happened. The sight of "Push Over Patrol Leader" disappearing was a shock to the young patrol mates systems, and they hopped-to and got busy. The other thing that happened was the two older boys went over to the PL with some atta boys and "Yo da Man". To see the confidence grow inside this boy in one 27 hour shorty camping trip was really an amazing thing to see.

     

    Afterward I got him and the two older boys together for a talk about the trip, and made it clear how I was pleased he took charge like that. But also, if he has any issues getting the boys in his patrol to do their part that's what the older boys are for. And then if they can't get results one of them will come to me. That should lead to a lot less "Come over here a minute" moments between the two of us.

     

    Now, the fact that the four of us have clearly identified the good-nature but definite slacker in the patrol, I am reeeealllyyy looking forward to the camping trip next month. :)

  10. ....and thought of some great ideas. Being new I only had them focus on the first 6 months. The older, experienced scouts took the lead and every month they thought of a great theme to work on and......THE MERIT BADGES THEY CAN PLAN TO EARN WHILE DOING SO!

     

    The thing is, I think I'm ok with First Aid, Aquatics themed badges and Cooking. We are doing our planning in two phases, first phase high level then next week dates and details. That is where I will have a better opportunity to reel them back in from some of the others. They were so excited about taking the lead I was reluctant to stop them.

     

    So, how much of a degradation to the MB program is it if they do all the planning for the MBs for the troop?

  11. SP, thank you very much.

     

    And just to let you know....

     

    "A non Scout leader who gets trained should do well, except that they MIGHT not have much background in outdoor skills like backpacking, orienteering, canoeing and such, and it takes a good deal of practical experience to be competent in those skills."

     

    Good call. This is where my largest feeling of inadequacy lies. We held our new troop's first annual planning conference on Saturday, and the boys flat out said "Canoeing, we definitely want to go canoeing!" I love the idea, but I'm glad they agreed to move it to May instead of the original February when they started. I have work to do on my skills in that field.

     

     

  12. When reading a current thread in the Patrol Method as well as others, a common problem recognized by some people in these forums are adult leaders who were never Scouts. Being one of those myself, I would like to counter that theory with one of my own.

     

    Before I present my case, there are two points I will concede. I wish I had been a Scout. As a Dad I am very happy for my son when I see him enjoying his Scouting days, and know I would have loved them as well. And had I been a Scout it would definitely help me as a leader. Point two, when we walk in the door we are, for the most part, clueless. And we are leaders at the same time. Not a good combination, but that's where the smarter ones of my non-Scout (NS) types are asking the experienced leaders questions and trying to learn.

     

    That said, I can't help but wonder if NS leaders are a problem, why are we in such demand? In terms of membership, all I hear is numbers are down. So what that means is there are less Scouts than there were decades ago, but the adults who were Scouts at that time are now nowhere to be found. This first made itself known to me on a Scout Sunday service a few years ago. I had a vast 3 1/2 years of lifetime experience of Scouting under my belt when the pastor started asking anyone in the congregation who was a Boy Scout to please stand. Then he asked those who achieved Eagle to remain standing. All I can remember thinking at that time is how I have been to about 30 Roundtables, staffed 4 district camping events, attended 6 or 7 district or council camporees, and served two years as District Popcorn Chairman. Why have I never met any of you? Even if being a direct leader of youth is not your thing, could you not at least help with a district position so us filling the unit positions would not feel pressured to also fill out the vacancies?

     

    This ties in with another approach that is taken towards the NS leader. This person, who has never been involved with Scouting at all but shows up at RT because they are fresh faced and want to be the best darn Den Leader, ASM, or whatever because they were told that's what good leaders do. They will never say no because the spirit of volunteerism has taken them, and when the person with all the bling (We get medals in Scouting? Cool!) speaks to them about how the district needs them, the NS leader of course gives a resounding "YES!". And before you know it, you have over-volunteered and next comes the burn-out. Should we all be grown-ups and not agree to things for which we have no capacity to do well, of course. I am a big personal responsibility guy. But those in the know shouldn't look at a brand new tan shirt and think "Fresh Meat!".

     

    Lastly, for the defense, I would contend that us NS leaders, for the most part, only want to be the best we can be and are looking for guidance. Based on that, we attend training. I attended WB21C after I was 6 months in because I was told it was the best training out there, and the youth deserve the best (to which we can all agree). So we show up bright-eyed, ready to learn from.....wait for it.....experienced Scout leaders using curriculum developed by.....here it comes again.....experienced Scout leaders!

     

    You Honor, the defense rests! :)

  13. While Eagle mills and advancement driven units are sure to be part of the answer, one thing that can't be ignored is the way technology has made many things easier during the last 20 years. Think of all the time spent making copies, faxes and carrying around binders full of manuals that are no longer necessary due to advancement in data sharing and storage. And the youth today are on top of that much more than your average adult.

     

    In essence, you could use the same requirements for Eagle as 20 years ago and perform them just as diligently, but not have to spend the administrative time a boy did in 1990.

     

    Basically, why so many more Eagles is a question with many contributing answers, like a pie chart.

  14. While he may be stirring things up, I did find one thing extremely interesting after I read the article. That is the fact that any girl may join, but you only have access to certain awards of the program by pledging an oath to God or a religion. No matter what side of the argument you are on, this can never work.

     

    Another thing I found interesting was this from the spokesman for the Scout Association:

     

    "They need to have a faith or be willing to explore having a faith if they're to be a Scout."

     

    So what happens if a boy willingly explores having a faith, but then decides it is not for him?

  15. First of all, JK, RELAX. Of course advancement is an important and valuable aspect of Scouting. Just a friendly chat for the sake of chatting. I hope not everything on this site is meant to solve all of Scouting's heaviest problems. Sometimes around the campfire we let our imagination loose too.

     

    The thing is, I know I am new and so is my troop. I'm just hoping the overwhelming feeling of "Am I doing this right" gets to be a little smaller as time goes on. As of now, I really haven't talked much about advancement with too many of the boys at all, and I'm afraid I could be doing them a disservice, or maybe not. My PL is focused on his advancement, so I'm running his patrol mates' advancement through him, letting him take the lead. Telling him he is not only responsible for his advancement but the advancement of the other boys has led, at least I think, to a higher quality of concentration on his part. And when the others see his desire to advance, it gets them going too.

     

     

  16. We have had fun (at least I have. It is just a virtual campfire among friends, right?) with the last couple of threads debating the use of pen and paper while at the same time describing similar ways of running programs in every other way. So just for a little more fun, what if the next handbook came out with no rank advancement at all?

     

    I know it's pure folly on my part, but it would seem to me everything a boy gets from advancement he can get through the other seven methods. Imagine if you will:

    * A COH where a Scout's experiences of the last few months were highlighted, not his latest patch.

    * No discussions with loving but uninformed parents, great people all, that want to know why their boy's Pop-Tarts didn't get him 2nd Class.

    * FCFY replaced with, well, camping.

    * One less thing for all of us to argue about (But I'm sure we could find something to take its place :) ).

     

    Thinking about the boys, I really think if you ripped the last 20 pages out of the BSHB, not only wouldn't many of them notice, the ones that will might look at the pages in the book not listed to show you were the requirement answers reside.

     

    And if you think about it, how many boys in your troop do you know that use rank to figure out who's who? If a young scout wants to learn a tripod lashing, he doesn't go looking at shirt patches. He talks to hopefully his PL, but if not an older boy and asks who knows his stuff as far as knots go.

     

    Like I said, this is a post for posting sake, but I would be interested to know the thoughts of many around our forum.

     

    P.S. This could be an idea detrimental to the Troop Trailer Eagle decal salesmen.

     

  17. On a side note of this discussion, if I am reading between the lines of what is said correctly the good news is it seems everyone is on the same page as far as presenting a quality program is concerned. That if two boys of similar skills entered fred8033 and Eagle92's troops at the same time, both troops would run a quality program and 18 months later these boys would have a similar set of skills and great experiences. The difference would be the patch on the shirt,or how long he has had it. To me, big picture matters a lot, but I'm a common ground, non-confrontational type.

     

    If you think about it, probably the biggest problem is philosophical prose instead of pure explanation in what we find ourselves using as reference. Take for example the well-used phrase,

     

    "...a badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much a reward for what he has done"

     

    If you were asked to write a manual and answer the question "When should I mark this requirement as met?" would this really be the best answer you could give to thousands of volunteers across the country? I could be totally missing something here, but to me it makes no sense at all. How do I know if a boy can do something unless he as already done it? And how do I know after seeing him do it correctly and properly one time that he won't be able to do it the next time he is asked?

     

    Now if the idea was to give out some not so clear guidelines so people could make units operate as they see fit, thereby offering diverse options to boys and parents, it works.

     

    I guess if I had to nail down my philosophy, it's not "one and done" because if you are running a good program the skills learned during the first three ranks should never be "done". But in terms of signing the book, it is possible to receive the recognition after one attempt. The biggest thing is the quality of the "one". If new scout on a camping trip shows my this great tripod lashing camp gadget he was able to make BY HIMSELF, I'll tell him great job, you might want to go see your PL with a pen. If he shows me three wobbly sticks that a summer breeze would blow over, I'll tell him nice try, you might want to go see your PL to set up some more knot training.

     

     

  18. First of all "drowning in a forward direction", excellent. I'll make sure to give you credit when I, er, borrow that one. :)

     

    Troubling aspect can be where there are judgement calls when these things are concerned. The kid that struggled still, in the eyes of the SC Aquatics Leader or Director, passed his swim test. So do you sign because he did what the requirement demanded in the eyes of others, or do you not sign because he did not meet your standard? Also, since in your mind he did not meet the requirement, are you then required by conscience to take his swim tag from him even though the person in charge of the venue said he passed?

     

    And yes, I know we can hypothetical anything to death.

  19. Reading this thread and the other has made me think about how, if you do not believe in "one and done", do you actually know when certain advancement milestones are met. Two that come to mind are FC requirements written as follows:

     

    8a. Demonstrate tying the bowline knot and describe several ways it can be used.

    9b. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

     

    You would think they would be simple. Scout comes to you and say "SM (or PL, SPL, or however your unit works), I have been working on tying the bowline at home so I can earn FC. Let me show you." He then proceeds to tie a perfect bowline while describing its many uses. Is he done? What if he missed it the first time but recovered on his own and got it right? Does it have to be perfect every time? Or is there a limited number of attempts one gets before not being deemed "proficient". Also, how many times does he have to tie it for you to know he learned?

     

    For the swim test, you have a young man new to the troop. He goes to Summer Camp and passes the swim test, but he is no fish. It was quite an accomplishment and struggle for him, but he did it. Do you sign? If you do, what if during his next swim test he doesn't pass? What now?

     

    Now here is the thing you may not get from my questions. I'm not in the camp of "bare minimums" for signing advancement. If you are to serve as your Patrol cook I wouldn't require Chef Ramsey standards of excellence, but in my mind it means your PL, SPL or anyone else in leadership does not have to do the whole "Now light the stove. Now get the water. Etc.." thing. You are told you are the cook, now cook. If you perform, the book is signed. If not, try again next month, along with some encouragement of what you can work on to be successful.

     

    I guess what I'm looking for is a litmus test. If it is not "one and done", then how many? How many bowlines, how many swim tests. If I were a boy working on advancement, I would want to know. And if the answer is "There is no number, it's until I'm satisfied" I can see that as something a boy can see as frustrating.

     

     

     

  20. Being small at the moment, our boys in our new troop came up with a solution that takes the communal bug juice out of the equation. The guys love the Mio flavors, liquid alternatives to individual flavor packs. They are small, so they are easy to carry individually. They come in multiple flavors so the guys pick up what they like before the outing. And since they are concentrated, one will last them the weekend or more.

     

    The sharing between boys who just started camping together ("Hey man, try this mango flavor", "That's good, try this fruit punch") was an unintended benefit. :)

  21. I totally agree. From the sounds of it, that was a forecast for a nice breeze and great sleeping weather.

     

    trainerlady, I do truly hope you haven't taken any of my posts to be meant as disparaging. It's hard enough making sure your email to friends has the right tone. On a forum like this, sometimes it can be darn near impossible.

     

    And on one hand, it's a shame the Webelos event didn't go as planned. But on the other, the troop was able to show an ability to react, adapt and overcome a difficult situation.

  22. "That havin' been said, I always tell folks yeh should cancel any individual event when yeh feel it's beyond da skills or the gear of the group to handle. That's just prudent. Then yeh should look at what yeh can do to improve da skills or gear of the group so that next time yeh won't have to cancel."

     

    You know what Beavah, I think this is exactly the answer I was looking for. Thank you, because it makes perfect sense. One troop's group of Life and Eagle Scouts with Philmont experience and gear have a different tolerance level than my new bunch of Tenderfeet (or is that Tenderfoots?) with the Wal-Mart camping section stuff.

     

    In terms of the equipment issue, I may be just a little sensitive to the $750 worth of damages. Being new and knowing what we don't have, losing that much makes me cringe.

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