lrsap

Sitting back and relaxing with a well-earned frosty one (out of uniform, of course :-) ). BD, you are correct. While tiring and patience-trying at times, it was not nearly as stressful as I had made it in my mind. A big part of that goes to the great staff at Camp La-No-Che who made everything so easy. Also, every one of them I talked to made me feel as though they were happy to have us there, a big change to what I experience in my council and district which has some "birthright" types that send out the "you're lucky to have me" vibes.

The Native American program was outstanding and will have the boys back there again next year. On Sunday they were ready to ditch their Merit Badges and sign up for their woodsman programs. Next year guys, next year.

The best part though has to be the troop coming together as two separate patrols with their own identity. My ASM and I were nice, and on Monday realized how stressed out our newbies were about where to go and what to do, so we told them ok guys, the first day is free. We covered some things a more experienced troop would have, but then came Tuesday. When the PLs realized it really was up to them, the wide eyes we a sight to behold. That was Day 1 lesson "Your mama isn't here".

They best was Day 2, "You move as a patrol". They were, of course, a disorganized lot trying to get ready for breakfast flag. Finally I looked at my ASM and asked her if she was ready to go, so we started walking. Out come three, two from the Monkeys, one Turtle. I look at them and ask them "Where are you going?" Answer "We are ready to go" Reality "That's good. Now go and get the rest of your Patrols ready. See you at flag".

Flash forward to Thursday's Pow Wow show. I had a bunch of stuff I needed to get to and was looking forward to having to get back and rushing them along. I walk in and there they are, full uniform and sash and a PL telling me they will wait for me if they want. I tell them how much I appreciate their work in getting ready, and I can catch up if they want to lead them out.

The week ended with a Friday night flashlight game they made up "Monkeys vs. Turtles".

Patrol identity established, fun time by all, and only one tick bite (my poor female ASM, Day 1 swim test. It's all good, she's tough!)

The new troop is, in two short hours, on its way to lovely Camp La No Che to brave the ticks and have a ton of fun. Say a prayer for us and our new experiences, and we will see you next week!

Like all things, there is a little in-person perspective you get by observing and living a situation as opposed to the picture your mind's eye can create from conversations such as these. I have a good idea that no matter your opinion on this matter, just about all of us would disagree with an adult leader that enforced push-ups "as a drill sergeant would".

If one does use tactics such as these, I appreciate the method ScoutBox employs, doing the exercise along with the boy. It is much less ostracizing and more inclusive. Basically a better teaching tool. I personally do not use push-ups or singing, but that's me. The biggest thing is does the parent and scout know and understand going in. It might be a good thing to discuss when they visit and allow them to make a choice rather than something being sprung on them.

But I do have a question for those who do use push-ups to reinforce a lesson or even the dreaded word "discipline". If you are an adult performing the infraction and a scout calls you out, do you drop and give him 10? Or will you hem and haw about those being "rules for the boys, not grown men". Those who would actually use that as an excuse might just lose a little respect in the eyes of the youth they lead.

I can think of one of Webelos out of the hundreds I met that would be the type of kid I would make an exception for if it was necessary. But as soon as I let him in, I've set a precedent. Not to mention the fact that this kid, if told no, would say "I understand".

This isn't to say anything bad about 4th & 5th graders. They just aren't ready and to try and force them on the boys who either had parents that shelled out the money or even better earned their way to Summer Camp is extremely disrespectful.

moosetracker,

Yep, around these parts any beading is closed by the song, all 8 critters plus "Staffer" verse sung. This is whether or not it is one or twenty people being beaded. No matter where, Roundtable, Unit meetings, Pack meetings, Court of Honor.......

And Twocub, I'm not anti-WB. I just believe there are places where the song is just not appropriate. Like any situation that most of the people in the room could care less.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time in WB as both a participant and staff, and believe it to be a quality training course. (Although I would have LOVED the opportunity to take the "old course") I think it can be, when done properly, applicable to not only Scouting but other aspects of life. Through WB i have met many people that have helped me in my Scouting and have become great friends. Fortunately for me my experience was different than BD's, and I look back on it positively.

I drone on to say I fully agree with Basementdweller. It is a commitment, but it's a training class. To include one of our WB beadings in a young man's Eagle ceremony does nothing to enhance the experience. No matter the intention there is no way to not have at least half the room walking away thinking "Why would he do such a thing?".

If your son came up with this idea and is practically begging you to do this, I might think differently. I also in no way believe you aren't thinking of this with the best of intentions. One of the hardest and best things that happened to me when I went from Cubs to Boy Scouts as a leader was learning how to separate his Scouting from my Scouting.

And I just can't see 5-10 middle-aged Scouters singing a tune about furry little critters helps.

5yr,

Makes perfect sense, and actually works well for this thread. Over here (unless it's changed lately) it's a pure Pack advancement thing. Of course the rules of only being earned at a District or Council event still apply, but they are definitely Pack decisions.

Truth be told I actually like the way they do it in your neck of the woods better. It definitely makes it clear as to whose award it is to approve.

I personally enjoyed the loop and pin program, but always used it as a supplement to the program rather than a focus like I see some other units do. If a belt loop or pin doesn't naturally fit into the program event you are running at the time, don't be so desperate to cram them in there.

And for the record, I still have no problem with a Tiger earning a pin because I still believe it is an award given based on the boy's ability at that time. That being said, your average 1st Grader will be picking weeds and chasing grasshoppers instead of really earning the pin. Then there will be those one or two that really are into it and do their best. Those two get the pin.

5yearscouter,

I left Cubs behind a couple of years ago, and haven't taken a look at the Sports and Academics Guide in a long time. Basically, I'm saying I can be way off base.

But to me, just because you can only earn the loops and pins at a District or Council event does not mean you need a RM approval to say it is their standards that apply when saying a scout has earned a loop or pin. Now don't get me wrong, a good CM would heed the recommendations of a well-qualified RM. But unless an advancement form for these come with a requirement of an RM signature, it's not required.

Another thing I have a problem with is the thought that a Tiger can't earn a certain loop or pin. That is because they can be earned multiple times in a Cub's time. Do Your Best applies. It's not as if it were a Boy Scout requirement that you only get one shot at saying "He can do it". If they weren't meant to be able to be earned multiple times at progressing skill levels, then previously earned belt loops wouldn't be required to be earned again as a Webelos.

A minor detail, but in my council it would not be possible to have a "stash of rank badges" to award immediately, at least not for a new troop like ours. Gotta have a signed Advancement form to buy a badge in these parts.

Out of coffee.

Kudu,

What would you feel is best for those "other" positions if there isn't anyone that expresses interest? I mean the ones such as Historian, Librarian and the like. Some people see them as minor or even worse "throw away" positions, just designed to meet a requirement.

I kind of get of two minds, thinking if there isn't a boy that wants the job, anyone you can put in there will be miserable in it and thereby being set up in a sort to do a bad job. But there are jobs that need to be done, and if no Scout does them you know what that means.

BD,

Neat and fluffy? Not very, but we're ok. I just happen to have a great guy as a DE. I seriously wish you could meet him and see what life is like on another plane of the organization to which we both belong.

And I honestly wish I could live in your woods for a while. I shouldn't make assumptions or criticisms without having some perspective, and for that I apologize. Actually it seems we may actually be aligned on some of our opinions regarding those concerned with their prestige rather than their duty to serve.

And I should appreciate the fact that this place could serve as a great venting board for someone dealing with the "beating the head against the wall" issues you experience. But it would also be nice to hear some of those good stories also about the youth you serve from time to time.

I suppose greatness would require the right combination of outdoor skills, knowledge of BSA practices, processes and procedures (unfortunately), and a compassionate and patient temperament. That's a few things anyway.

From this Scouter's perspective: Someone with these qualities, willing to share them, with humility added.

From a parent's perspective: Someone with all these that treats me with respect

From a Scout's perspective: Someone with all these and a smile, someone with the ability to laugh with the guys and still maintain the role of leader.

There are probably a lot of interesting answers to your questions to come.

First of all Bobwhite89, I see you only have a few posts. Welcome to the forums. And forgive BD, he just happens to be the most miserable person in Scouting.

BD, not sure Bob's title or volunteer vs. pro status is any of your business. If he is a friend to Scouting, he is welcome to me. I never knew this was an "us vs. them" forum. If my DE, who happens to be fantastic, wouldn't be welcome on these forums, then perhaps this is my last post. A real shame too, because I thought Friendly was one of those 12 things we were supposed to worry about.

And for those who might think the Scouting word would be a better place without DEs, well some food for thought. You may have a bad one. The one prior to mine now was a real piece of work. But if it is ever changed to "no pros", someone still has to be in charge. I prefer to be a unit volunteer doing the best I can for my unit. I don't have the capacity to put in the volunteer hours to do what a high level district volunteer takes on (or at least what doing the job properly requires). Now, think about some of "those" people a RT. You know, the ones that if introductions are done, start rattling off their 18 different positions they currently hold and finishing off with a "And a Good Ol whatever from class blah, blah, blah" These are the people drooling for that VDE (Volunteer DE) position.

Good luck with that.

Eagle732, I have to respectfully disagree with you based on personal experience with my Scout son. When he crossed the first outing was a canoe / camping trip down a river. We were in the canoe together for the trip. The group made a stop to work on some canoe skills including getting into a canoe that tipped over. Well don't you know, not 100 yards down river after we started up again we go in the drink. From behind I hear "Well, it's a good thing we just had that class". We get the gear back in the canoe, get all right and get back in. He was bummed we tipped, but that was about it.

Flash forward three months. Summer Camp, Sunday Swim Test. I could see the hemming and hawing, nervousness and everything else you wouldn't expect. So the kid who managed a tipped canoe in a river didn't make it 25 yards in the Swim Lake.

What I'm saying is you can definitely be right on some occasions. But to say a swim test is never stressful is not taking into effect the mind of an 11 year-old. But I definitely took a few things away from all this:

*I never even thought about the fact that my boy, who loves the ocean, had never actually swam in a lake before. Crazy, how did that happen kind of thing. But when he stood on the dock looking into water over his head with a clarity of 2 inches at the most can look like a pool of black danger.

*The more time they have to think about it (SOMETIMES) can only make it worse.

*When you are taking new kids to a SC site you have never been before, try and have them as prepared as possible.

I think about 2 years ago and realize, while I still sometimes feel like I don't know anything, I sure have learned a lot!

Actually you nailed it pretty well with just a couple of differences. My thoughts weren't towards the equipment being put back in its proper place, but a safe place. Basically no way would I endorse putting it all up ship-shape in the lockers and all being neat and pretty as it should be. My only concern was for the equipment itself, which you made a great point about it actually belonging to the CO. I would be all for a leader taking the equipment, securing it elsewhere and then following your approach.

The one thing we don't know is exactly how much danger of theft or exposure damage the equipment was in when it was left out. If none, then my point is moot.

And I am completely on the same page about the fine line between Helpful and allowing boys to lead. I still see things, pick them up, and then half-way to where I'm going say, "Why am I carrying this?"

JMH,

I am curious about one thing with the approach of the equipment belongs to the CO, and the entire troop has lost the privilege of using the equipment. Does this also apply to the adult that left the equipment out for 5 days? If the question is in a lesson learned, the equipment belonging to the CO can be spared by the leader and a lesson still taught.

Jkaufman_95,

First of all, let me thank you for a rather mature response from someone that can be no more than 17 years-old. And before I say anything else, I don't doubt that you are a fine young man and great SPL. The fact that you will get up with a scared or nervous scout and sing with him tells me that. Also the note about how they try to catch you (unsuccessfully) gives me a glimpse of the camaraderie in your troop. Being SPL, you play a huge part in that.

I actually would probably subscribe to something close to Beavah's point of view on this matter. It can work for some troops, not so for others. But my biggest fear for any troop using the singing method is the scout that does leave due to embarrassment. I have to question if it is worth it to lose any scout over this sort of practice. But I still find myself coming around to the thought that nobody knows their unit like the people in the room, so to me this is a difficult subject to gather around an anonymous forum and say, "You're right!" and "You're wrong!"

Now as far as the grammar thing goes, I have just a couple of points to make if you don't mind. First, I did not attempt to make a point, I did make it. If you don't agree it still does not mean I did not make my point. In certain circles, saying someone "attempted" to make a point can be seen as insulting or condescending.

Second, concerning the fact that you choose to not use proper grammar on an online forum is a choice. And true, you are not applying for a job and nobody here knows who you are. But you are still representing yourself, and it kind of feels like the "character is what you do when no one is looking", doesn't it?

Third, you're going to have to provide the example where I used the improper word (you're vs. your). Take the sentence, replace "your" with "you are" and see if it still makes sense. And if I am incorrect, I will own it gladly. The difference would be I made a mistake, while you made a choice.

While I love these forums and have learned a great deal from them, I hate the impersonal way words come across when written. I could so easily see this as a great campfire discussion with both of us sharing our ideas in a respectful and enjoyable manner. You would play the part of the "teenager who thinks he knows everything" and I would be the "old man who just doesn't get what it's like today". Somewhere in the middle is what we call Scouting. Hopefully I will never stop teaching AND learning.

P.S. Thank you from the depths of everything I hold dear in Scouting that you are "VERY STRICT in terms of pranks and ill behavior". As an older youth leader, not to mention SPL, you have a responsibility to those boys that is completely separate and in some ways greater than any adult in your troop will ever have. I think any troop would benefit from your membership and leadership.

I really have a hard time seeing how ones who earned a Choco Taco while enjoying a picture show with all the guys could cause any kind of issue. Well, with the boys at least. And therein lies the problem.

And I'm one of those softies that thinks singing for lost stuff is wrong. Sheesh.

Jkaufman_95, welcome to the forums, and thank you for also helping your scouts who lose things learn from the experience of performing what may be humiliating tasks.

In that spirit, let me tell you what you lost. You seem to have misplaced your apostrophe. Before anyone thinks I am picking on a poor scout, let me say I am frequently reviewing resumes for positions on my team. Those with the sloppy text speak and disregard for at least an honest attempt at proper English are quickly removed from consideration.

While this may pass if one desires a career in "big tandem axle" waxing, it doesn't fly too far in the real world.

Now, according to those that feel a little shame is a good teaching method, I hope the lesson taught here proves valuable. That feeling you have about me right now? Some 11 year-old singing the teapot song may just feel the same way.

Forgive me if I missed it, but there are a few questions I have about making sure it's done before COH.

Is it the scout that is wanting to make sure it's done in time for COH or the adults?

In this specific troop, is rank awarding withheld until a COH and not upon being earned?

Maybe I should have just spun a new thread, but only awarding rank at COH can lead to another whole host of problems. Merit Badges are one thing, a FC wearing a TF for 3,6 or 12 months is another.

We had an OA election and BOR on the same night recently, and the OA Advisor that is a great friend of the troop was asked if he would like to join as a guest. Not only did he say he was honored to do so, the other BOR members expressed how much they appreciated him being there and the experience he added to the proceedings, given that we are fairly inexperienced in our new troop.

Now, if you are conducting a BOR for a scout that may in any way be questionable my opinion could be different. But I think a the right guest every now and then adds something special.

"If a troop is dysfunctional or not healthy, sure go ahead and switch. If ya don't get along with the leaders, go ahead and switch. Fine. But why not change earlier? In a continual scouting experience, change when ya realize you don't like the situation. Why wait for the magical Webelos transition? It's a transition that should be eliminated."

Fred, let me make sure I am reading this correctly. If my son is a Bear in a great pack he loves, but the CO also has a horrible troop that there is no way I would want him to join, he has to find another pack? I hope I'm missing your point.

We do agree completely on other points though. My son was a CS with a pack that also has a troop he did not join. We actually formed a new troop of which I am the SM. I was the ADL of the Webelos and a very good friend of mine remained as DL when his son was in. I told him as much as I would love to, I can't be his ADL anymore because it would be unethical for me to be there as any kind of influence on the boys to join a troop other than the one offered by the CO. If someone wants to seek me out and talk, I will not turn them away. But to represent a different unit on the grounds of another is just wrong. If I ever do stop by I still have a pack t-shirt I can throw on.

The advice of not over-volunteering, or saying yes too much, is good. Everyone should know their own personal capacity. But for all the good that can be done by people at a District level, one thing I have seen is the culture of looking at brand new leaders as "fresh meat" for district level positions.

Somewhere along the line someone who just wants to be the best Wolf Den Leader or ASM they can be is somehow seen as "not volunteering enough".

Hey there, ScoutDaddy, welcome! Let me be the first one to say it on this thread because you can find it in many, many threads on these forums:

"Ask him to show you where it is written."

or more technically,

"Get a copy of the current Guide to Advancement and ask him to show you where it s written."

I do have a few questions for you though:

*What does the Scoutmaster think? It's ultimately his call.

*Does this ASM require it for every Scout for every requirement that has an a,b,s, etc?

*Ask him how a Tenderfoot can do 10a and 10b all at once or nothing. That would be a neat trick.

*What position do you hold within the troop? Not a negative, and don't dare say "Just a parent." There is no such thing as "Just a parent". Without parents we have no Scouts. But if you hold certain positions within the troop your recourse could be different. If you do not have a position, it could be trickier or at least requiring more diplomacy.

And just for fun, how would everyone define "Securing the ingredients" anyway? Does the boys have to do the actual hands on shopping, or can he organize and delegate his patrol in a "You bring this, you bring that" method. Seems to me the goal of that requirement is to make sure what you need gets to camp.