lrsap

So if a WB Course Director is requiring a 360 eval be a ticket item, is he "Adding to the requirements"?

Sorry, I'll be quiet and behave.

I'm a bit torn about something, and would like to hear your opinions. I'm a WDL, and the den is crossing soon. I will be joining a few of them in the troop as an ASM. I have been asked if I would like to cross with the boys in the ceremony.

At first I thought, "Sure, sounds cool." But since then I've had second thoughts. The last thing I want an AOL/Crossover to be about is me. It's for the boys, they earned it and it's their big step. My question is, have any of you seen this at a crossover, and how does it look when it happens? Does it come off as a 'nice touch' kind of thing, or does it look like a grown-up trying to be noticed and taking something away from the boys?

ARRGGHHH!!! Skewered I am! This is what happens when you don't actually say what you mean, and I should know better.

Of course we all recite the Promise, Law, etc at our pack meetings. The question I was trying to ask (and doing an extremely poor job of doing so) was:

Is your CM the type that will take a Tiger, during his Bobcat ceremony, and have him stand before the audience and require him to recite all parts of the Bobcat badge from memory? Then, if he misses one, tells the boy, "Sorry, try a little harder, and maybe you'll earn it next month." Or something to that effect.

I apologize for the little thread hijack, but I was wanting a second bite of the apple to actually say what I meant the first time.

I've noticed the negative connotation to the "My" whatever as well. But I don't take it any more negatively than if someone were to say the Colts are "My" team.

And as far as someone using the expression to the extreme, thinking they are Lord of their den/pack/troop, it's funny how it isn't used as much when it's "My" fault.

I'm kind of in a "take it or leave it" kind of opinion about them. But really, the only ones that make a lot of sense are the AOL and Eagle. I mean, other than those it's taken off for the next one.

But since my son is crossing over and earning AOL this year, it is kind of cool. Let's just not try to add it to the leader knots when they get older. (Wait, did I say that out loud? Uh-oh).

First, let me say I agree with many that have said it is best to have them work on memorizing the Oath, Law, motto and slogan. It's all part of a WDL job in helping boys achieve AOL. And Lisabob's idea of making it a game and showing it to the CM and having him sign off on the AOL requirements.

But the question is not about AOL, it's the Webelos badge. I'm a bit put back by people that say "Let it go, they need to do it for AOL anyway."

To put this in a different perspective, imagine a Boy Scout has fulfilled all requirements for his 2nd Class rank. But applying the same logic, the SM says "That's good, but I need to see you tie a bowline before I approve this for COH. You'll need it for 1st Class anyway." If he can't, you have a unit leader withholding a scout's legitimately earned advancement in the spirit of "He'll need it later anyway." You now have this scout waiting for the next COH (whenever that is) with a Tenderfoot on his chest knowing he deserves more.

Achievement is done in progression. Otherwise, you might as well have Tigers working on Activity Badges. They'll need them later.

CNYScouter,

Just curious, does he also require boys earning Bobcat to stand in front of a Pack meeting and recite everything in front of a crowded room of parents?

I'm not 100% sure on the YP regulations regarding nephews, but I do have one suggestion. I agree them in a tent and you alone would be perfect. Would it be possible for the two of them to do a back yard campout on their own as a test run?

Your CM is way off track. I could go into a long explanation of why, but the easiest response to give your CM is to ask him to show you the book. When he can't, then take out the Webelos HB and leader's guide, and ask him to point it out to you.

Beavah, I think you hit it perfectly when you said some folks were getting a bit sensitive, because when I re-read my post I can see I did a little more of a rant than I should have. But honestly, my reaction came from thinking about how things are going on around us these days, stories you hear in the paper, and I have a hard time thinking we should throw out people that just may not do things as well as others.

About the school thing, that wasn't meant to mean scouts should be like school. Trust me, any troop that tried would fold rather quickly out of sheer boredom. It was just meant to say the same structure of adult leadership some find distasteful for their child's development in one area is the norm in another. But again, it turned out to read like a smart aleck comment.

Agreeing with Beavah again, in my opinion the best approach is that there be something for everyone. But I still contend that the mill itself isn't the most harmful thing about scouting, but rather any unit, totally boy or adult lead, that gives away it's advancement rather than demand it be earned.

When I saw the title of this thread, I knew this would make for some interesting reading. So far the main idea I get from most people is that they would never want their son associated with an organization that:

1) Is planned, run, and completely overseen by an adult

2) Is not run by the boys

3) Focuses on advancement

I hate to break the news to you, he goes there Monday - Friday. It's called school. And some of us pay to send them there.

I have two problems with the constant criticisms of what some people refer to as "mills".

One, there is never a distinction between a unit that focuses on advancement, and one that gives advancement away. I contend that many "Boy Led" troops could be just as guilty of cheapening the advancement process as an so called mill. "Hey Bobby, just put me down for 2 pull-ups."

The other is the disdain some people have "The solution, fire them all" that some people have for the leaders of these mills. Broken down, a leader of a mill is an adult who:

Cares about the youth in his community

Takes time out of his life to provide service to these youth

Takes them outside and away from the Playstation

Instills a sense of community service and patriotism in the boys he leads

Yes, I truly believe the best thing we could do is make sure these adults stay away from our kids, and hope they never come in contact with them again. After all, there is only one way to do Boy Scouting. (Sarcasm fully in place)

It was Scout Sunday during the Tiger year. I was thoroughly convinced I had not done a good job at all. Sure, the guys had earned their badges, and we had some fun. But I could never get that 100%, go off without a hitch type meeting.

Then, in the parking lot while talking to a parent about next year, their Tiger looks at me and says, "You're going to be our leader next year, too. Yes!!!" Then he gave me a look I'll never forget, and one that told me I guess I wasn't so bad after all. He will be crossing over into the same troop as my son next month.

"He got pretty frustrated having to contact 2 people at our church and going to 3 teachers to get them to send in a reference letter."

Forgive the novice in me (my den crosses over in 6 weeks), but didn't I see a post from a few months ago that said a scout didn't have to go chasing around for his letters of reference?

(If I need to spin this one off to a new thread please let me know)

Imagine if you will a very prosperous crossover season, and you now have 12 new scouts. Your next 12 to 18 months would be, "Hmm, Johnny did Obedient, or was that Sam? And who was the one that used Thrifty 7 months ago?"

I agree the spirit is to live all 12 points, and be able to report on them by the time he is FC. But we tell the boys what they need to know is in their handbook. If it doesn't say use each only once, then it doesn't say it. Besides, even Mr. Prosperous Scoutmaster should be able to remember if 1 of the 12 is on his eight version of Reverent, and can help steer the conversation to another point.

I can foresee the "No cell phone" troops slowly but steadily becoming the minority.

From a mom at a school night recruiting meeting, "Does a bus come by the house to pick him up for meetings?"

Didn't get that scout.

I don't want my comments on Wood Badge to be misinterpreted. I attended the course, got quite a bit out of it, and I am very glad I went.

However, I went when I was a Tiger Leader, with just 5 months total Scouting experience under my belt. I was full of enthusiasm, and thought hey, I might as well go for the best. Had I known then what I know now, I would have definitely waited a good 2 - 3 years before attending. I feel I would have gotten a lot more out of the course if I were a bit more seasoned.

I agree that stepping away for a while would be a great idea, but I have one small thing that would prevent that from happening. M-O-M. It is a "He's not going into the woods without you" type of thing. But believe it or not, finding these forums and reading them practically EVERY night has given me some of the best Scouting advice I've ever received.

Because of this, I do actually have a plan to back off and let my son experience his scouting, with me basically being in the same building. And if I am offered a role in the Troop, let the adult leaders know to give me a gentle, "They'll be ok" if I ever get a little too Cubbish. But I honestly don't think they will need to that much. Trust me when I say some of us 5 year Cub Leaders are ready and willing to stop being the show.

Besides, as far as the Mom's rule for camping thing goes, all she would see is us leave together. The fact that we are at least 300 feet (or is it yards? so much to learn) apart doesn't have to be part of the dinner table conversation.

I certainly feel better about the chilly night I spent camping with the W1 den last December. I guess my next question would be why a council would have such a rule. Meaning I can see setting a temp limit for Cubs, but 40 degrees? Here in Fl we would have plenty of available camping time on the calendar, but New Englanders would have to put the tents away in August.

Uh oh, rule fight!!

Coming soon, a cut and paste from the BALOO syllabus.

Thanks. I have thought and re-thought the whole troop selection process in terms of where my son and I might go. Then it kind of hit me, "Uh, it's really not about me, is it." That's when I figured, as long as I didn't see any reason to say no, it's his decision.

The funny thing is, I was thinking he would be impressed by well established troops with tons of tradition and Eagle plaques on the wall. But instead, he felt at home and a natural connection with a SM and a group of boys looking to start their own traditions. Actually, 30 minutes into the meeting I think I kind of knew, since I felt it too. I guess they never stop surprising you.

I just hope they have a spot for a newbie ASM. Oh, that's right. "Not about me.....Not about me...." I'm getting there.

I had, or should I say my son had, a fantastic experience last night. Being his W2 DL, I have been setting up troop visits. I wanted to get in at least 3 for my den. The first 2 troops were easy. Very different programs but very good SMs leading them. I was having a hard time coming up with a third when a leader from a small troop, only a couple of years old, extended an invite at RT. I hadn't really considered the troop, but the leader is also a very good person and scouter, so I said sure. At least I now had my three.

Fast forward to last night, and what I saw was a good group of young boys learning to lead. Because of the age of the boys, the SM was close by. Not running the show, but helping the boys hone their own leadership skills by helping when needed. I saw boys taking pride in their troop and appearance, and extending a friendly hand to my young bunch of 5th graders.

Towards the end of the evening, the SPL (a young 14 year old) addressed my guys, giving them a run down on everything the troop likes to do and has done. Then the SM took some time with the Webelos to explain some of the finer details, and showed a genuine interest in the boy's scouting, not his unit's numbers. This was because he told them he would love to welcome them into his troop, but the most important thing is to find the best troop for them.

After the meeting, and a few detailed questions for the SM with my son at my side, it was time to go. My son, a shy one, then extended his left hand and thanked the SM for the evening. On the ride home, before I even got to tell him he did a good job with the handshake and thank you, tells me, "Dad, I think that's the troop I want to join." He spent the rest of the ride home talking about the SM, and how much he liked that he took the time to explain things to them.

The fantastic experience? My son made a genuine connection with his future Scoutmaster last night. And I was privileged enough to be there.

They could have at least turned the neckerchief around on the silhouette.

"....our troop had no use for Wood Badge training because the last WB guy turned out to be useless. They were in the process of running him and his boy off. "

Enough said. Time to leave. If there isn't another troop in the area, I'm sure there are plenty of available scouts that don;t want anything to do with these people. At least enough to start a new one.

I truly appreciate everything I've read. Advice like this is why I keep coming back to these forums almost every night. What I get the most is that the differences in advancement (and other areas) isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as we have our eyes open, the differences will allow for the best fit for my boy.

Now if I can just keep the SMs in the area from recruiting me instead of my son I'll enjoy this process even more. I started my scouting life the same day as my son, 4 years ago at the Tiger Roundup. But I went to WB21C within 6 months (and I know some of you are howling now . And yes, as one of those newbie TC leaders that did so, I agree it was much too soon) so apparently that makes me a prime ASM target.

It might be a good time to tell them I don't know a BOR from a COH.

But again, thank you all very much.