LongHaul

OK Calico let's play. The boy has never been in another troop and you have been his SM for the entire time. In answer to where did you get these cards he tells you; "My cousin lives on the other side of the council and last night my aunt asked if I wanted to go with them to this Merit Badge College." In looking at the cards in your hand you see a signed card for LAW merit badge. You ask him "What was this one like?" He says; "We sat for an hour and listen to a guy tell us what it is like to be a policeman." You see another for First Aid to which he says: "Some firemen put on a big demonstration, I fell asleep for a while." This boy has done everything a duly registered MBC has asked of him and has received certification of completion in return. What do you do now? Is the badge earned when the card is signed or not? LH

Welcome CHUCKL-UC, in case you are not aware of it, using all caps is considered yelling and your posts will be responded to differently by some forum members. If you want in on this game you should search this topic from the home page for some background. We are aware of what the ACPP #33088 says and we discuss it now and again. This particular time we are discussing the wording in the ACPP#33088 against the concept that a SM or troop AC can challenge the validity of the MB after the MBC signs the card and not forward said signed MB card for recording. We have in the past discussed the concept that a BOR can challenge the validity of a MB already recorded in Scout Net and deny advancement. Both of theses concepts are the result of wording in official BSA text. Quoting the "book" just slows things down if you don't keep up with the thread. LH

And I thought this was going to be fun. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the advancement process was a game, I was referring to the game you and I entered into when we decided to "play". You seem very sensitive about not having all the control you want with regard to MBs. While I may understand some of your concerns I question the concept that if you are not in control then the boy belongs in a MB mill. As for your DAC being a sterling fellow that is pretty dead on to the mark about advancement, have him get the official position from National about the difference between requirements, policy and procedure. Actually from your other posts over the years I was kinda expecting a different response from you. Kinda along the lines of "If I got 6 MBC signed cards from one of my Scouts and I had not issued them originally I'd be on the phone to my DAC to find out why MBCs were working with boys without the knowledge of the scouts SM or designated unit leader. LH

Yes John it does make sense and at first I thought you were going to pin me and win the game in the first round but you gave me an out. So on to round two. National has already said that the things you would be speaking to the DAC about are procedures and not requirements. You talk about trustworthy and imply that in the troop you serve as Scoutmaster for trustworthy means doing what you say to do. Don't know about that. If we as adults can't differentiate and accept the difference between requirements, policies, procedures and just plain what we want how can we expect the boys to make those distinctions? You use the term local take when referring to BSA policy. How does local take fit in with trustworthy as it relates to our signing an adult application that said we would comply with BSA rules, regs and such. And how does it fit in with loyalty as it applies to National and its rules, regs and such? Yes local councils have a lot of latitude in many areas but requirements for rank and MBs seem to be a hot topic and National has said no alterations, additions, or subtractions. LH

OGE, I am not saying we must all become pacifists and allow others to do us harm. If someone is trying to kill you I say kill them first even though killing is wrong. The fact that people as a whole spend so much time trying to justify themselves for their actions makes me wonder if they don't see their actions as questionable. When was the last time you had to defend your self for not stealing or not killing or not harming another. The distinction I'm trying to make is between right and justifiable when it comes to killing. Justifiable homicide is homicide none the less, I feel homicide is wrong even when it can be justified. LH

ASM857, I accept what you have posted and agree however if your post was intended to respond to the question I asked John-in-KC please note that I said 6 merit badge cards which you had never seen before. LH

That is what I am trying to talk about OGE. Murder is wrong, killing someone in self defense is still murder and is wrong but we do it willingly to preserve our own life. The difference is in "justification" we can't seem to be able to stand up and say yes I murdered this person, it was wrong and I did it anyway. We need to justify it so we can feel that it was not wrong. Why is it so hard to accept that stealing the enemy plans is wrong but justifiable why must it be right before we can sleep? War is wrong, killing other human beings because somebody tells you to is wrong. There are times when the option of solving a situation without war is taken away from us that justifies our waging war but right and wrong can't hinge on how we feel today , who's in power, or what someone has done to us. We must keep the divisions between right and wrong clear if only to know how far we need to go before we can live in peace. LH

I understand the game just fine, you want to post opinion and half truth and have it accepted as fact. After a while people get tired of responding, you get the last word and feel like you have won. I understand the game just fine. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This bigamy ˈbɪg ə mi - Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -mies. 1. Law. the crime of marrying while one has a wife or husband still living, from whom no valid divorce has been effected. American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This bigamy (bĭg'ə-mē) Pronunciation Key n. The criminal offense of marrying one person while still legally married to another. WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This bigamy noun 1. having two spouses at the same time 2. the offense of marrying someone while you have a living spouse from whom no valid divorce has occurred Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source - Share This bigamy [ˈbigəmi] noun marriage to two wives or two husbands at once (a crime in some countries)

No Gold Winger only National can make it a requirement and National has said that all that stuff in the requirements book on pages 22 & 23 and in the ACPP (last p is for procedures) are procedures and not requirements. Requirements are listed under the specific heading for each rank and merit badge respectively. LH

Ok John-in KC your on Accepting what you posted, a scout comes to you with 6 signed merit badge cards which you have never seen before. Do you forward these? If not what is your justification for witholdiing creditation for work certified as complete? LH

Gold Winger you open your post with the premis that right and wrong are dependant on personal belief alone and close youpost with a question as to whether coveting is actually wrong. Given you original premis of the post why ask anyone about coveting except yourself? Your last question, if indeed it was a question and not mearly a thought out loud, indicates that you understand full well the context in which right and wrong were being discussed in this thread. Play fair or don't play. LH Ed sorry for the delay I've been pre occupied, I agree witih your position but have to ask. Now this is for Ed Gold Winger, do you realy think peoples perceptions of right and wrong change or is it their williness do do something which they know to be wrong that changes?

In a council near me the information as to who earned which MB at summer camp is entered into Scout Net directly from info received by council from the summer camp staff. No cards of any color, no SM prior approval, no SM oversight, no BOR checks and balances, no advancement form. You can search for John-in KC's post as to the difficulty in getting info in Scout Net out of Scout Net. We can also debate once again National's track record of decisions made on appeal for advancement refused even though a MBC certifies completion. MBC training and any training for that matter is worth the paper this message is printed on when it comes down to an appeal with National concerning advancement. Each individual Council does things according to how each individual Council decides it should be done. National only gets involved with advancement if there is an appeal and then the requirements book becomes the bench mark. Keep in mind that procedures do not a requirement make. LH

Talk to someone serving time for bigamy, there is date for the illegal marriage that's what bigamy is all about. The date the MBC signed the card is the date no matter what anyone says. Whether the document is held to be valid or not has no affect on the date on which it was signed. If you are saying the badge was earned at the moment the MBC signed the card that is one thing. If you say the badge was earned when the SM approved the document that is another thing. If you want to say that the badge was earned when someone keyed the information into the Scout Net data base that is again another thing. Trying to mix and match terminology doesn't work if the objective is to answer the initial question. When is the badge considered earned? LH

OK Gold Winger I'll play for a while. I won't go into the date of the merit badge not being what the original question was asking. Let's just try and sift through your choice of words a bit. >>No, I'm not. The date of the merit badge is when the counselor signs the card. (portion omitted) So the date of the merit badge is the date the card was signed unless there is evidence of misfeasance, malfeasance, or nonfeasance. And then the date is? LH(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

So but that logic the rape camps in Bosnia were right. Those who controlled the physical surrounding geographic area felt those camps were right and served a purpose so therefore they were right? The concentration camps in Europe, the killing fields of Cambodia, what is happening today in Darfur from a stand point of "right" and "wrong" these things were right? LH

Gold Winger Im not understanding your positions here. You responded to a post of mine with "Do you actually think right and wrong change or is it just our reaction to the action." (my original words) Right and wrong are only our reactions to something. Right and wrong are really human constructs, a lion doesn't ask if it is right before he eats the eland. (your response) " So Gold Winger you don't see certain actions as right or wrong in and of themselves? Murder, rape,stuff like that." (my original words) Nope. We decided that they were bad long, long ago and most go along with it. Obviously some don't agree or the police wouldn't have so much work.(your response) Are you saying the murder and rape are not actually wrong? That the reality is that we as a society just have decided they were wrong and most people go along with it? LH

Being a married man for 31 years and having a wife that never had a runway model profile I TOTALLY understand your position Beav. I also agree that asking the question you want the answer to is sometimes negated by the fact that you asked too many questions at one time. Answering the first question of when is a badge considered earned after putting it into the context of "How do I approach the SM and his AC wife" is not always the best thing to do. The answer to the first question should not change with situation or unit. Gold Winger are you now saying that you misspoke in your second post in this thread? Or do you wish to amend your post to read "...it counts. QED as long as" ? Question still stands unanswered until we define earned for the purpose of the question. LH(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Ive re-read all the posts in this thread several times, Im trying to figure out how to use it to teach Communications. The evolution of this thread from a legitimate question concerning procedure to a discussion of parenting and sexual awareness is not unique for this forum. The fact that several members have noted that the original question had been answered BUT.is also not unique to this thread. I just wonder if anyone realizes that the original question has not been answered. When is a Merit Badge considered earned, when the MBC signs the card or when the SM signs off? Lets accept for the sake of discussion that when the SM signs off means that the SM forwards the MB certification for entry into Scout Net. We have told Aquila that ; >>The merit badge is earned when a registered counselor signs the blue card.>You can question the card if you have reason to believe that fraud was involved The you here being the SM?>Aquila, what's your role in this troop? Like this makes a difference in the answer to a question of procedure.>In terms of official answers, there are two: 1. The responsibility for merit badges shall rest with the merit badge counselor approved by the local council and district advancement committee... The merit badge counselor shall prepare and qualify youth members. (R&R X c13) 2. I (the SM/CC/TAC) certify that the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America. (Advancement Report Form)>So common sense suggests that the merit badge counselor is the one with primary responsibility, but that doesn't mean that the unit leadership can't check up on things now and then.

So GW oh lord I can't do that..... So Gold Winger you don't see certain actions as right or wrong in and of themselves? Murder, rape,stuff like that. LH

Do you actually think right and wrong change or is it just our reaction to the action. Was slavery ever actually right? It was legal, it was common practice but was it ever right. LH

Which is one reason I was initially against the February crossover. Realistically the New Scout does not have to attend the first campout or two but his association with the troop and his patrol that takes place in those first two months can make the difference when he does begin to camp. Preparing a New Scout for Cold Weather, below 50 wet or windy, is the troops responsibility. You would not take a scout to Philmont without preparing him why take a new scout out in cold wet weather without preparing him? But troops do anyway because the new scout is all gung ho and does not want to wait. The Webelos program was intended to transition the boy's mind set not give him all the camping skills of a boy scout. The camping experiences should give the boy confidence in his new troop but few actual skills. LH

My suggestion is between now and February have your SPL/ASPL/ TG work on teaching the rest of the troop the finer points of Effective Teaching (watch me, I watch you , you teach him), Communications ( I know you believe you understand what you think I just said but I'm not sure if you realize that what you heard is not what I meant) Setting the Example (understanding the concept of making your attitude, appearance, and approach one that commands the respect of others). We prepare for outings, we prepare for First Aid meets, we prepare.. Prepare for these new scouts and the program you will present. LH

Making things easy is not my job. Looking for the interpretation that allows the scout the easiest means to an end is not my job. For this badge and these requirements my job is to prompt the boy to look around his community for an organization that he is not currently aware of or familiar with, if that organization can not be found adaptations are made but projects which simply require physical labor on the part of the scout won't qualify with me. Answering a plea on a flier or ad in the paper doesn't fit the requirements as I see them. This badge seeks to broaden the scouts horizons and contacts within his community, not just provide another source for an Eagle required MB. As for my reference to not wanting to be a stand in for Merlyn being a cheap shot read your posts in this thread. On 11/13/2007 at 1:20:16 pm you state; NOT as your opinion, NOT as something you would apply when counseling the badge, BUT "Being a CitC MB counselor, these would be fine for the merit badge as well as rank." as fact. You go on the say that "The MB requirement is the MB's call" yet you seek to deny me that right by saying that "these things would be fine for the merit badge". When I attempt to clarify my interpretation and position you again make a sweeping statement "This can be achieved for any service project as long as it is outside of Scouting." Which is a totally inaccurate statement as the requirements put certain parameters in place which preclude some service projects. When I respond to another forum member as to the difference between being considered a charitable organization for tax purposes and a charitable organization of the type referred to in the Merit Badge you ask for the schools main purpose. Which by definition of "school" is education, when I further point out that a school designated as a charitable organization which charges a tuition would not fit the requirement as a "charitable organization that brings people together to work for the good of the community" You then attack, for lack of a better word, me personally saying I'm over thinking this because I can see a difference between a purpose and a side effect. This is the exact same pattern you take with Merlyn at times. You attempt to mis-state facts or present your personal opinion as fact. I've made my point concerning my interpretation of reqirement 7 for CitC MB Ed if you disagree find that is your right. You are now free to have the last word which is your want in these cases I will not respond to you further in this thread. If someone else has a position I will listen. LongHaul

That's why I said "not all councils will accept the web site version" and didn't make a sweeping statement such as "the web site version is not acceptable". Unclear as to the power point reference. Why create a power point after getting all the necessary signatures? Why not just submit the form with the signatures on it? LH

Ed, I have no intention of being a stand in for Merlyn. The schools primary focus is to educate the students that have parents willing to PAY the tuition. If someone moves to my community to have their children attend this school then by definition they moved here to attend this school not work for the good of the community. Saying that a church school is an organization that brings people of the community together to work for the good of the community is like saying BSA is an organization that brings boys together to sell them uniforms. LH