LongHaul

NJCubScouter, Yes it is former policy to exclude women. I was making a distinction between policy and program. Having the gay issue resolved with the same result as the female leader issue isn't very likely. I believe the decision to allow female leaders in Boy Scouts was not an altruistic nor purely consiliatory decision. It was based on the realization that there simply weren't enough male leaders to keep the store open. We either have women leaders or we gonna die. I saw it purely as a money/membership decision. Allowing some local councils to still deny membership to women wa

Owasippe Scout Reservation Whitehall Michigan owned and operated by the Chicago Area Council We have three resident camps as well as a family camp. We also have a High Adventure Base which offers week long Backpack treks in the Manistee National Forest, a Canoe/Backpack combo, (walk some paddle some) and a week long Horse Trek, you rid'em you feed'em you care for'em. It's been around since 1911.

"You can delegate authority, but you can never delegate responsibility for delegating a task to someone else. If you picked the right man fine, but if you picked the wrong man, the responsibility is yours..not his." Richard E. Krafve, President, Raytheon Co. And my alltime favorite quote; "Character is power." Booker T. Washington

Yes, Bob, I do agree that I agree with 99% of the opinions and explanations you post. I think that our disagreement on PROGRAM may be definition rather than position. The "program" in my eyes are the things BP wanted to pass on to youth. The patrol method, boys taking charge and accepting responsibility, self confidence and determination, getting and staying in touch with the outdoors and their surroundings, and above all Honor. Having your word mean something. These are the things that CO's decide to use to benifit the youth within their sphere of influence. These ideals or purposes sho

SagerScout, Where did you hear that the National Policy was to HATE gay men? I constantly hear about; DISCRIMINATION (negative conotation) HATEING someone with opposing view points AN LDS "CONSPIRICY" indicating intent prior to or in conjunction with chartering troops. I frequintly find that when someone lacks solid facts or when their positions is based primarily on personal belief that they tend to attack the person(here National) when they cannot attack the argument. I never have nor would I ever allow anyone to suggest to the boys in our troop that they should HATE, DISCRIMINA

Whoa! Something happens at 10am and the boy is out of Scouting by noon? Whose decision was this? I had a very similar incident happen in the troop I'm Scoutmaster of now. I was CC at the time and we were at a District Camporee where our COR as in attendance. Having the COR,SM,CC and three members of the troop committee present we called the parent and asked that the boy be picked up IMEDIATELY and a meeting with the COR, Troop Committee, and parents was set up. This kid had brought lighter fluid along and set his arm on fire, on purpose! Some stunt he had seen on TV!! Our decision was

I'll open by saying I support the National policy in relation to gays, both as a right to decide who will be allowed to join and that gays are not acceptable role models. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. That is the point. This country was founded upon and by people who wanted to discriminate. (See Bob White's post for a proper definition so this post can be viewed in the proper context) This country was founded upon the belief that everyone has the right to choose who they will live and asociate with and that they had the right to keeep those with opposing views out of their commu

CubsRgr8, You asked why public schools don't sponsor more units and wheter this has always been the case. I can only speak for the Chicago Area, but it believe it was a nation wide change, when the athiest vs Bsa thing came up publicly owned facilities were no longer allowed to sponsor troops. The school tropps around here were PTA sponsored and they all had to find new CO's. The Fire Dept Explorer post dispanded and the Police Post went to a private not for profit organization. The park district troops closed and the Chicago Housing Authotrity was forced to stop funding it's troops. New

Bob White, Reading your posts in this thread I have to ask a few questions. You said that the National Relations Committee is composed of 20 members. Who decides who will sit on this committee? The info I have says that even if the National Office finds merit in any suggestion it will be three years before it will be acted upon. Do think it was three years from the onset of the gay question before policy was written? Don't you think your many years of providing program to youth at the troop level, where we get to see if program works and how to adjust to individual boys, should be at lea

Mike Long, Mike, I am not suggesting anyone of us are kids in fact I am stating that we are not kids. I have no problem people who have different views than I in fact I welcome it. I too have changed my views on certain topics as I have grown. I never ment to offend anyone. I simple see things differently than you do. On another thread we discussed a scoutmaster who was a DI and runs his troop autocratically, little patrol method, no PLC control, no boy run troop. Do you think for a minute that Council would tell the CO that if this troop didn't start delivering the Scout Program properl

People, we are not kids. Does anyone think that if National was in danger of losing it's pay check it wouldn't change policy to appease the masses? If morality was such a big thing why hasn't National made a policy before. Until now it has been the CO that was the deciding factor in who was eligible to be a leader. When the CO said gays are OK and the LDS and SCLC said they would fold their tents if National didn't make a rule, National made a rule.

NJCub Scouter, You wrote: I also see it as an issue of "someone trying to impose their views on others," but I suspect that I am referring to different "someones" than you are. If by this you mean National trying to impose it's views on local troops I think you've missed the issue. If you don't share National's views you need to find another organization OR work to change the National's views. But to take National to court to force you're views on them is wrong. Please understand that when I say "you" I don't mean you personally NJCubScouter. If you want to join my club you follo

Bob White, Sorry I didn't make myself clear Bob. When I suggested you check with lawyers I was refering to the question of whether National , Council or for that matter anyone other than the CO has any claim what so ever to troop funds or equiptment.

As usual Bob White has the information. I was under the impression that the First Clas First Year approach was brought in in 1965 when they revised the Handbook at that time but that is not important. The reasons Boys who attain First Class in the First year tend to stay in Scouts longer (according to studies and surveys I've seen in relation to Training Trainers) is that these boys have a.) Have mastered outdoor skills which have built self esteme and confidence. b.) Patricipated in several overnight campouts, which they had a voice in planning. (self determination) c.) Have learned skil

Responding to NJCubScouter post of 4/2. The troop doesn't "Turn over" anything to the "LBA" the troop never acquires anything to begin with. Funds are raised by the "LBA" for the troop needs. Equiptment is purchased by the "LBA" and used by the troop at no cost. The "LBA" does carry a not for profit status (exactly how forms are worded I don't know as I've said my troop doesn't do this) I know that the "LBA" isn't the CO. It doesn't "hold the money and equiptment it owns them". Responding to Bob White, Bob you should really che

Evmori, LLT?? Never heard of a pre-JLT approach. As a Trainer for my district I am VERY interested. I post this here because maybe others are interested too. Can you explain the approach.

NJCubScouter, Obviously I misunderstood your reference to a nation at war. I don't look at this as much as a gay/straight issue as I do an issue of someone trying to impose their views on others. I don't care what two grown people do in the privacy of their own home. But to make it public and then insist that I accept it is offensive. I have gay friends, I invited one to my wedding, HE brought his BOYFRIEND. My Mother almost have a coronary. These people know that I would not allow them to be leaders in our troop. I respect their rights they respect mine. My reference to page 53

OK Let me try to resond to some of the questions. No a unit money- earning app is not filled because the unit isn't the one raising the funds that is the whole point. The unit supports the (for the sake of space I'll refer to the benevolent association as LBA) The unit supporst the LBA the same as it would the PTA when we act as ushers or the rotory when we help with their pasta dinner. The troop supports the community by helping a number of the social groups. The LBA isn't a laundaring device it is an alternate means of handleing troop assets. As to protection Bob, I'd like to think tha

On another discussion page there is a post concerning a group of leaders who took Troop equiptment and Funds and went to another Troop. The Chartering Organization of the original Troop tried to recover the gear and funds but the only way to do that is small claims court. This raises the question of who do you name as defendant? The Scoutmaster? The Committee Chair? The Treasurer? The entire Troop Committee? Every person on the Charter over the age of 21? The Chartering Organization in question has decided not to press charges but what if they were determined to. How do we, as leaders,

NJCub Scouter, You ask "Who needs a united country(in time of war)" Do I take that to mean you support our response to 9/11/01? Stand up to terrorist as long as peopled died first but if the terorist is only trying to hurt you financally turn the other cheek. Don't stand up for your right to choose who you associate with is some one may be offended. See page 53 of the Handbook, read the part about being brave. Compromise? What would your feelings be if President Bush announced that the United States would be willing to agree to a compromise with those responsible for 9/11/

Sctmom, This is definately a topic for Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review. The Scoutmaster conference prepares the boy to Stand for Review. It preparation for the day when the boy stands before an employer and lets that person know why he should be hired and what a mistake it would be for the company not to hire him. It is also the time for the Scoutmaster to get the boys take on how the Scoutmaster is doing. It's my chance as a Scoutmaster to Stand for review by this scout. "What are we doing that you like most?" "What do we do that you don't like?" "What do you want t

Where are the proof readers when I need them. When testing the MSR bottles put the IN a pot of hot water not ON.

SouthPoleScout, Not knowing where you are located it's hard to recomend a specific stove. As Bob White said altitude and temp are big factors and play a big role in deciding which stove "to invest in". When you are buying a piece of equiptment you want to aim for the center of you use curve. By that I mean that you decide what your needs are and buy something which can be used most often. As an example I recomend that our new scouts DON'T buy expensive 0 degree sleeping bags even though we tent camp in 0 degree weather. A good 40 degree bag with quilt liner will work just fine and

dcviper, Welcome. I'm sure that when the rest of the group wakes up you will get a number of replys. Don't you just love having so many experienced Scouters to tap into, I love it. I use an internal frame. I have been to Philmont twice with it as well as local week long backpacking treks and have nevr had the stays warp while in a pack line. I am not familiar with you style of pack but I own a Kelty external and judging from the quality of it I don't think your stays are going to be light enough to be distorted. Just had a thought! When I went to Philmont as a you

Well first we must define terms. If "cool" means accepted by his peer group, I don't think we have much control over that. If "cool" means fun then it's a matter of finding out what the boys want to do and learn. This feed back should come from your PLC. You said the boy dropped out. How much involvement did he have in the PLC? How involved was he in his patrol and the troop. What I'm asking is did he give scouting a chance?