Liz

"Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii which is not the same as a birth certificate."

Um...

I don't know if this varies by state, but here in Oregon, YES, it IS the same thing as a birth certificate.

The only other document someone might possibly want could be the original hospital certificate. In Oregon, at least, this certificate is not considered "official" in any way.

If one of my boys someday ran for president, and had to produce his birth certificate, he'd get a Certificate of Live Birth from the State of Oregon (or use the one I've got in the file cabinet). If someone insisted on his original hospital certificate, he'd be out of luck. Since it's not official in any way, I am not sure I kept it. Maybe it's tucked into his baby book. Which might or might not be in my mother's basement somewhere. I don't think the hospital would print another one for him... even if the hospital still existed, which it already doesn't (and my kids are only 13 & 14!!). Obama's mother has been dead for years. Who's to say whether that document still exists or not? And why would anybody want it? It's not official. In fact, with my older son, his hospital certificate has a different name on it than his official one. I filled out the hospital paperwork right after he was born, but by the time I filled out the OFFICIAL State of Oregon paperwork before we were released, I had changed my mind and gave him a different name. The hospital told me, "That's ok, the hospital paperwork isn't official anyway."

I really don't understand how people can look at Obama's official Hawaii birth certificate and say it's not a birth certificate.

If people want to create some kind of conspiracy theory and claim it's forged... fine. Go ahead. But a Certificate of Live Birth is, by definition, a Birth Certificate.

-Liz

Not everyone can just lose weight because they want to.

I have a medical condition which was preventing me from losing weight until I finally figured out what the problem was a couple years ago. NOW, I can lose weight -- and I'm working on it -- but BEFORE, I got down to 800 calories a day and the more I cut back, the more weight I gained (and the more sick I felt). The condition I had (well, have, but now it's under control) was messing with my metabolism. My body refused to burn any fat, and insisted on running on what I could feed it -- at 800 calories a day, I could barely stand up straight... especially after my hour at the gym each day. I stopped having the energy to weigh all my food so I practically stopped eating. I can't begin to describe how tired I was of being fat (and tired, and sick) and how motivated I was to change it. Doctors were no help at all (and I went to several, knowing that the math didn't add up). I could have died of anorexia and still been over 200 lbs. When I went to my doctor for help, rather than run ANY tests on me, she accused me of lying about my meticulous food and exercise journal I'd been keeping for 6 months, and refused to even look at it.

The point here is not to get sympathy, but to say that I just have a really hard time with this one-size-fits-all approach. Yes, some people are obese because they are lazy, gluttonous, have bad eating habits, etc.. I'm not saying that just because it's "harder" for some people to lose weight than others, that means those who have it harder shouldn't bother trying. But this really does amount to discrimination against people who can't lose weight. And the limits are arbitrary... some people can be within the limit and be very out-of-shape, and others can be professional athletes and be excluded for their high BMI. It makes much more sense to say your physician must sign off that you're ok for high adventure activities... which is what the form basically said before (my own physician, prior to getting my condition under control, wrote things like "no hiking more than 3 miles" on my medical form last time I had it filled out).

"ask for nomination" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was more like "be open about showing an interest in the OA" so people will know the interest and perhaps think of nominating.

I also had an incomplete sentence in my previous post... that's what I get for trying to post and do fifteen other things at the same time... one of which was to register my kids online for an OA event coming up this weekend.

-Liz

Both my sons are in the OA and they love it. You don't hear a lot about it because there's a sort of "respectful silence" (my interpretation) around it. OA members are (ideally) immersed in service. They do not, however, want to ring their own bells or draw attention to this. Service is done for the sake of service, not for the sake of

If your son is thinking about asking his friends for a nomination, I would strongly encourage him to do so. Once in the OA, if he doesn't like it, he is not required to stay involved. That's what I would tell him -- try it. If you don't like it, stop. But I think from what you describe of your son he'll really like it.

Have your son watch this video:

-Liz

"Wouldn't Mom's boyfriend be the Scout's guardian if Mom gives him that role "

It doesn't usually work that way. Even a legal step-parent can't technically sign off on things for kids they haven't adopted (although I've only rarely had people question my husband signing forms for my boys). A guardian is someone who has legal responsibility for a child. Mom's boyfriend isn't a guardian.

-Liz

I'll consider it an "urban legend," then. Certainly it's not something our local lodges have changed.

I have been involved in historical reenactment groups, and I would also be offended if someone called what I have carefully researched and crafted a "costume." I probably wouldn't correct someone, but I'd think maybe they didn't understand. A "costume" is what someone buys cheap or throws together and shows up at an event in, as a costumed observer. "Garb" is what we call the historical *clothing* which has been painstakingly put together based on historical paintings, tailors' books, and rare remaining fragments in museums.

So... I can see how official wording for what the OA so carefully constructs can have a lot of meaning for people. I know my boys would never dare to just "dress up" in some kind of stereotypical "injun" outfit for an OA (or any other) event.

-Liz

This event is put on by the OA. There will be workshops on making both Northwest style and Plains style regalia. I think maybe I'll email the guy in charge and just ask whether it would be ok for me to participate. Even if all I'm doing is running transportation, I'd rather not have to make two trips! It's about 2-3 hours away.

Regarding the term "regalia," I keep hearing different things from different people about what it's "supposed" to be called. For example, this thread from about a year ago:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=184500

"By the way we are no longer allowed per Edict by National to refer to the costumes as 'Regalia'. Do not ask me why. Makes no sense to me." (Crossramwedge)

I've heard this here and there in other places, too. Maybe it's an urban scout legend? I don't know.

-Liz

LOL! No, but maybe I'd like to learn something so I could become one?

I know almost nothing about Indian Lore... but I probably SHOULD, right? Actually, as a Literature geek I really do feel like Native American story and mythology are a huge gaping hole in my education. Would "Aspiring Indian Lore MBC" count for anything? :-)

-Liz

Well, I finally got: "I guess I'll go if you REALLY want me to go."

And, yes, I REALLY want him to go. LOL! I am jealous, though. I might have to tag along if it won't bother him too much. It seems like so much fun!

-Liz

Hmmm.

I knew parents were allowed to observe, but I just never thought of exercising that right for something like this.

I think I'll talk it over with the boys and see how they'd feel about it. I really hate doing anything that might be construed as being a helicopter parent. On the other hand, I'm honestly very interested in the material for this event, and I also really want my son to go -- voluntarily, if possible. If my attendance means he is more comfortable going, and he would either not go or have to be forced to go if I don't, then it seems like a small price to pay.

Shucky-Darn. Looks like I might have to spend a weekend at the beach.

-Liz

It's actually in Oregon, but I suspect it's going to be very good.

If it weren't for the OCD and what I call anxiety (although he would rather die than admit he's anxious about ANYTHING), I wouldn't even consider forcing him to go. It's just that I'm pretty much convinced that he's being "forced" NOT to do it by his neurological condition.

It almost makes me wish to be an OA member myself, so I could just go along with him. He's not a "mamma's boy" by any means, and once we got there I'd probably not even see him again until it was time to go home... but he's generally a lot more open to doing new things when I'm sorta "there" (maybe knowing he will have a ride home if he really really needs it is what makes the difference). Having his brother going helps, too, but apparently not enough this time. If he had more friends from the troop going, I'm sure he'd have very little hesitation.

I assume you have to be an OA member to attend these things? It would be so much fun. I'd love to learn to do the crafts and costumes.

-Liz

I've got a question, as a parent of an OA member, not particularly as a Scouter, and I'm not an OA member myself.

Here's the situation:

My sons are both in the OA. Our local OA group has a North American Culture and Ceremonies Seminar coming up in a few weeks. My kids both said initially that they didn't want to go. Then I found out they just didn't want to pay for it, because they're saving up for something else (and only one other boy in their troop is attending, and he'll be working at the event so not much time to hang out together). While I honor their fiscal choices, I feel it would be a valuable opportunity for them, so I decided to offer to pay for it *just this year*. If they love it, I figure, they'll prioritize it next year in their budget; if they don't, then they don't need to go again.

My younger son jumped at the opportunity and said he'd go. He's very excited about it. My older son, on the other hand, said he still doesn't want to go. And... he can't seem to say why.

Now, normally I'd just leave it at that. He doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. But my older son has OCD that seems to be getting worse as he progresses through adolescence. He would deny this, but my observation is that he never wants to do anything he hasn't done before. When he got back from Conclave this fall, he told me he HAD to start putting together a set of Regalia (I know... we still call it that around here). Now he has the opportunity to get started on his Regalia at this conference, paid for by Mom, no less, and for no other reason than "I just want to stay home" he doesn't want to go.

I can't figure out any good reason why he wouldn't want to go. He normally jumps at every OA thing that comes along, from camping to service projects to... everything. There was a time when he was ready to drop out of BSA, but didn't because of the OA. But most of the things are things he started doing before the OCD set in -- they're not "new" things, they're things he's done before and knows he enjoys. This falls in the "new" category, so he (predictably) isn't interested.

Now... I am considering just telling him he HAS to go. With other, similar situations, this has worked out pretty well and usually he ends up signing up again at the next opportunity.

My son is now home-schooled (the OCD was interfering with school), so I told him that if he didn't go voluntarily I might just make it an assignment and then he'd have to write a paper about it. He is trying to decide now whether I was just bluffing or not. And... so am I.

I don't know... what do you think? Should I make him go? His personality is such that he should be just fine even if he doesn't really enjoy it... he's well-behaved and not a defiant kid. So I don't think he'll make anybody miserable (except maybe his brother) by being forced to go... and I'm fairly sure that he'll enjoy it.

-Liz

Heartfelt prayers sent your way.

Not only do I have two sons the same age as yours, but my step-daughter went through the whole brain tumor thing several years back. I know it's very difficult. My family will be praying for yours. Please keep us posted.

-Liz

I, for one, left the SSN line blank. Neither I nor my children have ever been asked for it at a hospital, so I presume it's not required around here.

Each of my boys carries an insurance card in his wallet. It does not include anybody's SSN. I asked for duplicates from the ins. company for them to carry. Although I do carry copies in my wallet, in case of emergency, I expect them to have theirs for medical appointments and such.

-Liz

I am still rather confused by the form.

The letter from National clarifies one important thing, I think: the limit applies both to any high adventure activity (regardless of how far from emergency evacuation it takes the Scout or Scouter). The limit also applies to ANY activity, high adventure or not, which takes the Scout or Scouter more than 30 minutes away from evacuation.

I am still unclear about what they mean by "evacuation." Do they mean 30 minutes to the hospital or 30 minutes to the point where they can begin evacuation (i.e. get loaded into an ambulance).

Most ambulances, as well as many fire stations, have emergency medical equipment such as defibrillators (and epi-pens and any number of other emergency items which could be handy for sudden life-threatening situations). If the scout camp is less than 30 minutes away from the nearest place where an ambulance is stationed, is that OK? As someone pointed out already, out here on the Left Coast many places (Scout camps or not) are well over 30 minutes from the nearest emergency room; but usually there are fire stations with ambulances even in very remote areas.

If it's the latter, and the obese Scout or Scouter must forego activities which are so remote that ambulance availability is more than 30 minutes away, then I have much less problem with it. Most activities that are not already considered "high adventure" would probably still be accessible. I think for most activities an absolute limit seems a little extreme... maybe an extra liability waiver, or proof of personal insurance that would cover something like Life-Flight, or an extra clearance from a physician might be better (after all, someone who's got a high BMI but who doesn't have high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or any signs of heart disease is going to be at a much lower risk than someone who is only a little overweight but has other complicating health factors -- where's the cut-off for blood pressure or cholesterol? -- not that I'm advocating for these cut-offs, mind you).

I do find it odd that there's not a separate height/weight chart for men and women. And I'm still feeling very fortunate that I've got a few pounds between me and that upper cut-off limit.

-Liz

"they are not taking into account for body shape."

I'd say they are. I have a very large body frame, and my "ideal" weight, while significantly overweight by most charts, is well within the acceptable or target range on the Boy Scout chart. Then again, my ideal weight (while about 20 lbs heavier than that of other women my height) may still be less than a man's ideal weight at my height.

Even given that my ideal weight is 20 lbs heavier than the standard BMI charts would indicate, I'm still a good 30-40 lbs heavier than that. So my New Year's resolution is to start exercising regularly. Thankfully, I've solved some medical mysteries in the last year or so which have previously prevented me from being able to exercise in any meaningful way. Yay!

On the other hand, the chart does NOT take into account body density. They really do need to have some way for people who are outside the range on the BMI to have their doctors calculate a fat/muscle ratio instead. Anybody who lifts weights or actively participates in similar muscle-building sports is going to be at risk for exceeding the charts, without having too high of a fat ratio at all.

-Liz

Thanks for posting this!! My boys are going in for their Boy Scout and Sports physical on Christmas Eve. I'm happy to have the new form to use instead of the old one!

On my end, I'll have to watch my weight, though. I'm not very far away from the "maximum acceptance" and I've been over it a few times in the last several years. =P And we have one or two Scouters in our troop who I suspect will be over the top.

Not that I don't try to watch my weight anyway, of course.

-Liz

OGE -- I am not left handed!

OGE, I think I've just found my movie soulmate. =)

-Liz

I also go with a qualified "never." In addition to self-defense, sometimes there are safety considerations, and reasonable force to prevent people from getting injured may be necessary.

In the other thread, I mentioned my son striking another boy who was deliberately agitating him through repeated use of a racial slur. I did not consider hitting to be an appropriate response to the situation, and my son was reprimanded for it. On the other hand, it was an *understandable* response, and I did not respond as drastically as I would have if he'd hit him after only a single comment.

While I don't particularly like the way the problem got solved, it DID get solved. I don't think that young man will ever use a racial slur to agitate someone else again (I don't think he really understood exactly how deeply hurtful it was -- getting punched once in the gut by someone he considered a close friend was probably the most decisive way for him to learn). And, for what it's worth, it gave me an opportunity to talk to my son about constructive ways to resolve conflict without resorting to hitting. As far as I know, he hasn't struck anybody else since then (not counting his brother maybe).

Proper? No. But a teaching moment? Absolutely. No point in getting any more bent out of shape than necessary.

-Liz

I thought that was standard policy. Our boys are not allowed to do something only once to satisfy two separate MB requirements. I know my boys attended a city council meeting for a Citizenship in the Community MB, but they have to attend another one to fulfill their Communications requirement.

-Liz

I'm with Beavah: I would suspend both boys from this weekend's activities (at a minimum) and remove the SPL from his position.

Removing the SPL may delay or even eliminate his chance to complete Eagle, depending on what he's already accomplished and how long you keep him suspended. If so, oh well. If not, hopefully he'll have some time to prove himself before he gets any further.

For the younger boy, I would perhaps inform his BOR and instruct them to ask him to explain the situation. If he does not show satisfactorily that he has learned what he needs to learn from this, he should not pass his BOR and be awarded Star at this time. That will take some planning, because an action plan will need to be set in place for him as far as tangible ways to show that he's learned about "Courteous, Kind" and "Scout Spirit."

"Zero Tolerance" is not exactly the same as "Third Strike." Since these boys have already been in trouble in this area before, a no-further-tolerance policy might be in order, without having to institute a "zero tolerance" policy for the whole troop.

One thing that needs to be impressed on these boys is that these kinds of problems are not tolerated, not just in Scouts, but in most schools, workplaces, or social circles. Regardless of how they're being taught at home or how they feel inside, if they don't learn to keep their mouths shut, they will limit their opportunities for life. Unfortunately, it's not easy to change hearts when it comes to racist attitudes. But with changes of behavior, sometimes changes of heart come along eventually.

Good luck.

-Liz

I, too, am saddened to hear all you've been through. It's so hard not even knowing whether there's "more to the story" or not -- if the Council refuses to talk to you, what are you supposed to do?

Have you tried sitting down with your son, and saying, "Now, really, IS there more to the story? Is there something else going on?" (Of course, if the "something else" is unfounded accusations by a 3rd party, your son might honestly not know either.)

The other thing to try would be to contact National and see if your son can register as a Lone Scout without going through your local Council. See if another Council will accept him, and if National would be OK with that. As a Lone Scout, I imagine he could be a "guest" at his troop for activities. We have (or at least have had at times) one or two of boys associated with our troop whose membership is with a different troop; they are active in their own troops, but have friends in our troop and just show up for meetings and sign up for the more interesting outings. They even participate as members of a patrol when they're there. This wouldn't be a very good permanent solution, but maybe it could get your son back active in what he loves, continuing to work toward his advancement, and perhaps eventually National can convince your Council to let him back in.

I don't know that any of these are good suggestions, they're just things I've been thinking about since I read your post last night.

-Liz

My own sons are from a mixed b/w racial background, although most of the other boys are not aware of this (you wouldn't immediately notice by looking at them, and their biological father has never been around the troop). Until recently, they were the only not-completely-white boys in the troop.

We had one situation on a weekend Scout outing where one of the boys who has some challenges (A.S.) started using a racial slur over and over. My son asked him repeatedly (maybe 10 times) to stop using that word because it was offensive. I don't remember which word it was, but it was getting an obvious reaction out of my son, which I think is why the other boy wouldn't stop. This boy is actually a pretty good friend of my boys, but he has his moments where he likes to cause problems. My son eventually lost his temper and pummeled the offending boy. (No injuries were reported on either side).

I and the other boys' mom were both there, heard the whole thing, and were standing back to see how the kids would handle it. The other boy's mom asked me to please not discipline my son in front of hers; she felt it would compromise the natural lesson he learned that there are limits (even among friends) as to how annoying and offensive you can get just because you're in a bad mood. I had a talking-to with my son about not responding with physical violence no matter how annoyed you are, but I did it in private. They boys all continue to be close friends (as I am with the other boy's mother). Now my son was not in a position of leadership at the time... they were all pretty young / new scouts.

Anyway, I think it's important not to underestimate teenage boys' abilities to move past even major disagreements and reestablish friendships. If either boy in the situation I speak of had been in a position of troop leadership, I think it would have been appropriate to remove them from that position (my boy for striking, the other boy for making the offensive remarks). I don't know whether that's the appropriate response in your situation or not. If the SPL intended to use these remarks to hurt, and it wasn't just a slip of speech like allanger referred to, then you might need to consider whether the SPL is mature enough to be setting the behavioral example for the rest of the troop at this time. Even if he's remorseful, you might consider removing him from the SPL position for a time.

I think that if the offending parties are really sorry, it would be wise to limit the damage by not informing the rest of the troop of what's going on. ("Johnny is no longer able to serve as SPL for the next three months, so we need to hold an election to see who will take his place..."). Facilitating reconciliation among just the boys involved (and any others who witnessed or got drug in by accident) would prevent the problem from spreading or resentment building among the other boys. On the other hand, if it was done in front of the rest of the troop, and everyone's already aware of it, it should be dealt with somewhat publicly as well. It would be important that nobody gets the idea that someone "got away" with this kind of behavior.

Good luck. What a tough situation to have to deal with.

-Liz

Well, I haven't promised to buy the new uniform for him, but I intend to because it was my idea for him to volunteer instead of getting a summer job that pays -- what he really wanted to do. He already has to pay for his own gear, summer camp, activities, Scout dues, uniforms (usually), not to mention the upkeep and maintenance of his trumpet, band uniform, track & field fees and equipment, etc. etc. etc.. He really wanted a regular job this summer, but I pointed out to him that he could gain a lot of great experience at summer camp, and he can put off getting a paying job until NEXT summer -- and if he likes the camp experience, he can get a paying job doing that. So, I thought I would get him the gear he needs for camp (if he gets chosen) as a gift; kind of a way to show him that I am supportive of him rather than place an undue burden on him (you can't earn money this summer, now fork over $150 for the privilege of volunteering).

As for sewing on the patches, I'm afraid that's just a hobby of mine. I like doing it. It's like an addiction. I keep inspecting the kids' uniforms in the hopes that they've outgrown them or worn them out so I can do it again. I will teach the boys to do it (I know, I should have done that already -- my younger son has actually asked me to teach him to sew) but once they learn how I'll probably still keep doing it myself.

Now you all know a little about my own neurotic compulsions.

(Liz hangs her head in shame)

-Liz